View Full Version : Naginata Cav vs. Heavy Cav
SlackerXS
11-05-2001, 06:03
Heavy Cav is more expensive than Naginata Cav... and I really don't see why...
Naginata has more armor and has similar speed as HC... I really don't see the point having HC if you have NC available...
just my 2 cents...
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SlackER ~ Extreme
KumaRatta Yamamoto
11-05-2001, 06:15
Yep HC is not really worth the price, that's why when i play campaigns, i play with my own tweaked troop stats.
Only yari sam can take them down when i play now, unless i use them too offensively (HC tire quicly), then other units can take them down too.
Lord Toranoga
11-06-2001, 05:48
I have the patch installed. NC does not have more armor. HC has 5 and NC has 4. HC has a defense of 6 to only 2 for Naginata Cav. Also, Naginata Cav can't be upgraded to a higher honor like Heavy Cav can with a Legendary Horse Dojo. I do like the higher moral(8) of the NC compared to HC(4) and of course NC's better attack value.
Before I have a Legendary Horse Dojo, I prefer to use NC,except if it's for an heir. When one is built I prefer HC.
[This message has been edited by Lord Toranoga (edited 11-05-2001).]
Seems sensible, also the likely-hood is that until you have the legendary Horse dojo, you don't have the koku to spare on HC which do after all cost 250 more (or something like that anyway) than NC.
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
Hosakawa Tito
11-06-2001, 06:29
I much prefer NC over HC.They are superb Monk and No-dachi killers who can take on YS too.HC don't have much of a role in the game except as defensive Cav, and seeing that they get slaughtered by YS, they are too expensive to be used/sacraficed as a defensive unit.I think NC are what HC should have been.They should switch the price between the two if you ask me.
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
Nope we didn't ask you but thx any way http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif. That's a fair point. Either that or change some of the stats. You could probably do it yourself if you found the right files (although I have no idea about that sort of thing).
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
SlackerXS
11-06-2001, 14:41
I think they need to seperate HC and NC as their roles of offensive and defensive...
i.e. give HC a much higher attack strength over NC and also speed too...
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SlackER ~ Extreme
Anssi Hakkinen
11-06-2001, 17:48
In a reverse of the infantry model, it's actually the HC who are the defensive unit of the two, confusing as it is. The NC are designed for attack (having high killing power), and as Tito-san pointed out, the HC make a half-hearted attempt at being a "defensive cavalry unit" with their heavier armor etc.
The problem is, defensive cavalry is impossible, both historically and in STW. No cav unit can have the staying power of foot Naginatas, because all cavs have a disturbing tendency to take high casualties in any fight, and are pitifully easy to slaughter with cheapo spear units.
Unfortunate as it is, I think NC actually make HC redundant.
bad, nagcav win against spears too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
GAH! The difference is that nagicav have jockeys riding them, whereas heavy cav have sumo wannabes on their backs.
Thats why heavy cav 'scares' so easy... the horse just wants to get rid of his passenger! LOL
Historically the heavy cavalry were the best unit and I wish to see them beefed up.
Tera
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
Speaking of sumo, I remember in Shadow warrior, one of the most fearsome attacks from the sumo boss was:
his fart.
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In order to save Heavy cavalry from extinction, let's follow Tera and Vanya's advice.
Literally BEEF them up. Feed those sumo-wannabe with copious rarely cooked tenderloin steaks, to a point that everyone is at the edge of throwing up.
Now imagine a whole line of these elite Heavy cavalry, all facing BACKWARDS. Those fat giant Asses will make a formadible sight indeed.
And if any enemy shock troops are foolish enough to challenge the might of Heavy cavalry, they will be greeted by a collective release of greenish gas rich in sulfur. And that smell of rotten egg and garlic .. The nostalgia is overwhelming. The demoralizing effect is devastating.
And the 1st REALLY-EFFECTIVELY-DEFENSIVE calvary is born.
[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 11-06-2001).]
Hosakawa Tito
11-07-2001, 07:40
I thought chemical warfare was against the Geneva Convention http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif *Think of the destruction you could cause by having an Ashi
apply a lighted torch at the moment the gas was released,it would be like a fuel air bomb.*
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Diplomacy is the art of telling someone to go to hell so that they look forward to making the trip.
Lord Toranoga
11-07-2001, 07:57
Maybe HC should have it's moral increased to 8 instead of NC, and reduce NC to 4. Then HC will have some edge offensively compared to NC for the high cost.
HC...never use em.
Allways go with NC...better.
Allways have one unit of YC just to chase down those pesky calvary archers.
HC as defencive ..stupid..not historically accurate.
Heavy calvary were the real shock troops in their time to brake up enemy formations,followed by the infantry.
Changing the subject...have you ever watched Sumo on ESPN? Highly entertaining! My favorite is Kaio...won some campionship a year or so ago...the larges guy was from the Malaysian area...Ah-ki-bono...500+ pounds! Back on the subject...I never raise HC...always NC...more effective against spear troops...HC are more for show...their backs graced by the Daiymo's bottom...
BakaGaijin
11-07-2001, 23:34
Do you mean Akebono? He's from Hawaii, not Malaysia. Same with Konishiki (now retired) and Musashimaru.
Hawaiians are serious about their sumo guys. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
Scotticus TheGreat
11-07-2001, 23:48
About the Naginata Cav, are they in the Mongol Expansion, call me stupid, and you'd be right, but I don't remember them in the original game...
Yup, you're right, you now get them when you build the Famous horse dojo. Maybe instead of adding that unit they should have just beefed up the HC stats.
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
BakaGaijin
11-08-2001, 07:31
Zone: But then they couldn't claim to have put in a new unit. =)
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
GAH! THe alpha patch should introduce 2 new jap units:
Sumo Infantry
Sumo Cavalry
Their sheer volume of lard will act as +4 armor, for not even an arrow can penetrate all its layers.
And their weight alone will add +50 charge bonus when they charging at the enemy, +100 if charging downhill...
Their achilles heel: they super slow. Even the Sumo cavalry should be slower than ordinary Naginata.
Otherwise, my god!, if would inbalance the game!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
Erado San
11-09-2001, 00:35
lol, you guys are giving a whole new dimension to 'Off Topic' http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Lord Toranoga
11-09-2001, 04:00
I tested HC and NC in custom battles, and NC always outperforms HC, even when you give HC 1 honor like you get from a legendary dojo.
NC has everything monks have plus more armor and speed for 100 koku less!
Clearly NC should cost more, or lower the attack value down to 4 and raise the charge bonus from 4 to 5. Also HC should have the same moral as NC(8)in my opinion for 600 koku.
[This message has been edited by Lord Toranoga (edited 11-08-2001).]
So, these sumo's cannot be taken out by anything, they also can't catch anything! For some reason I picture some very long games http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
No... No Dachis would take them out easily, as would naginata... all you have to do is cut off their head! These weapons, with their reach, are suitable for this task. Yari, which are poking weapons, would have a hard time piercing the lard armor.
And, of course, sumo beats sumo. And sumos tire easily. And sumos perform poorly in rain and snow. Under these conditions, they are beaten even by ashigaru.
Lord Toranoga
11-09-2001, 05:00
The following is an e-mail I sent to Creative Assembly. Maybe they will make the needed changes in the next patch.
Dear Sirs,
I tested HC and NC in custom battles, and NC always outperforms HC, even when you give HC 1 honor like you get from a legendary dojo.
NC has everything monks have plus more armor and speed for 100 koku less!
Clearly NC should cost more, or lower the attack value down to 4 or maybe even 3 and raise the charge bonus from 4 to 5 (cavalry should have a higher charge bonus than foot troops like monks because they are on horseback). Also HC should have the same moral as NC(8)in my opinion for 600 koku. Right now there is now reason to use Heavy Cav.
I feel keeping the cost the same and lowering the NC attack value to 4 and raising the charge bonus to 5; and also raising the HC moral to 8 will balance things out for campaign games. During campaign games you can get Yari cav and Heavy Cav units with higher honor than Naginata Cav with the Legendary horse dojo, without costing more Koku.
But Naginata Cav should cost more during custom games.
[This message has been edited by Lord Toranoga (edited 11-08-2001).]
GAH! NC are fine. Make HC better.
GAH!
Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
No... No Dachis would take them out easily, as would naginata... all you have to do is cut off their head! These weapons, with their reach, are suitable for this task. Yari, which are poking weapons, would have a hard time piercing the lard armor.
And, of course, sumo beats sumo. And sumos tire easily. And sumos perform poorly in rain and snow. Under these conditions, they are beaten even by ashigaru.
[/QUOTE]
Surely though they would squash more than on enemy as they die and fall over thereby destroying the opposition even if unable to kill them AND live?
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
SlackerXS
11-09-2001, 08:34
hahah... sumo infantries... they roll down the hills and run over enemies?.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
how is it possible to find horses that will be able to take sumos on their backs... lol... this is too funny~ http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif
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SlackER ~ Extreme
Lord Toranoga
11-09-2001, 08:51
I changed my troop stats files to fix the overly strong Naginata Cav. I changed the moral (which for some strange reason is called honor in the file) for Heavy Cav from 4 to 8. I also changed Naginata Cav's melee attack value from 5 to 4. I also changed it's charge bonus from 4 to 5.
Before the change, Naginata Cav was stronger than Heavy Cav even with Heavy Cav +1 honor, which you would get from the Dojo upgrade.
After I made the changes to the troop stats, I tested them using the same map and weather etc...
They were tested charging head on against yari samurai, which had the high ground.
So obviously they would do better if they were going downhill and were flanking them.
Naginata Cav averaged 18 heads taken and 46 men killed.
Heavy Cav averaged 18 and 47.
Heavy Cav +1 honor(which increases your attack by 1 not your defense),averaged 26 and 49.
With these changes Heavy Cav and Naginata Cav are now equal in battle with the same honor.
You might be asking why should I pay 150 koku more for Heavy Cav then?
Because Heavy Cav has slightly stronger armor which will protect you from missile attacks better. More importantly you can upgrade with a Legendary horse dojo and be clearly superior than a NC unit which can't upgrade.
Bottom line is early on Naginata Cav is the choice when koku is low or you dont have an armory yet to train HC.
Later on when you have an armory and the koku,Heavy cav is the choice.
These changes will ensure both units are balanced and will be used by human players in the campaign game. Which is not the case with the current patch.
In custom battles You cant upgrade your Heavy cav for free with a dojo so you don't get that advantage.
The only way to balance this is to raise the cost of NC to slightly under what Heavy Cav is(because Heavy Cav still has armor of 5 compared to Naginta Cav's 4)(also HC runs at 20 and charges at 20 but NC runs at only 16 but does charge at 20, very slight difference).
[This message has been edited by Lord Toranoga (edited 11-09-2001).]
Lord Toranoga
11-09-2001, 09:51
I would also like to see Heavy and Naginata Cav more different by giving Heavy Cav less of a disadvantage in woods than other cavalry. Reason being is they have swords, which are shorter, and are more easily used in confined areas than longer clumsy weapons.
Anyone who has been in thick foliage knows a machete is very usefull.
[This message has been edited by Lord Toranoga (edited 11-09-2001).]
Scotticus TheGreat
11-10-2001, 00:13
Could the sumo be a strategic player? He visits a daiymo with a personal sumo match for the great leader, then he just sits on him... BINGO! No more daiymo It could almost be a mini RPG, you need to train your sumo. Imagine it. He must eat 10 pounds of rice in two hours or else he wont level. Uh oh, he had a heart attack.. Whatcha gonna do?
Oh the possibilites
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Life doesn't seem through bad with Led Zepplin floating through the ears
Quote Originally posted by Scotticus TheGreat:
Could the sumo be a strategic player?...[/QUOTE]
LOL
That sounds like you would want to have a Sumo Geisha in addition to the regular geisha we have all come to hate. Sounds good!
Nothin' like a 500 Lb. bitch-geisha running amok through your lands to send a quiver through the imperial family!
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