Who's afraid of the big bad Pope?

[Parmenion]

This may sound like another whinge at the Pope (and it is), but it's something I've never seen before. Last night I was the Italians and I had an army of 4 Italian Infantry, 4 Pavis Arbs and 1 Urban militia (led by the successor of Bohemund de Tankerville - a 5 star general) sat in Naples. I was a good Catholic leader who always paid his dues, had never been to war with another Catholic faction and had completed 2 crusades at the Pope's behest. Without warning, an army of 2 spearmen and 2 archers attacked Naples and I was at war with the Papacy.........?

I had absolutely no idea that the Pope would use an aggressive strategy, I just assumed he had a defensive army and that was it. I've never ever seen the Papacy attack anyone before, never mind a Catholic faction.

Anyway, I crushed his puny army and he refused to pay the ransom on his 2 nobles and 20-odd troops I had captured, so they were put to death. Every other faction who I was allied with (all of them apart from the Muslim ones) cancelled my alliance as I was at war with the Pope, even though he started it.

I was so mad I launched an attack into the Papal States with a stack of 16 units and crushed all resistance there. Then I sued for peace with my 4-star emissary, but did I get peace? No, I got excommunicated

From now on I'm playing Muslim or Orthodox factions, The Pope can kiss my heretical booty
In fact I'm gonna play VI instead and burn and pillage my way through Britain. And I'll make damn sure I assassinate any Bishop that wanders into my lands too.

[Sjakihata]

Don't be, he goes down when 'it' comes.

[The_Emperor]

war with the pope means instant excommunication.

To tell the truth I'd rather be a faction that isn't right next door to Rome... but if he attacks you I say, kill him Raze Rome to the ground and prepare for his comeback.

At the very least you can buy yourself a few years conquering without hassle

[lookbeyond23]

As a rabid rabid rabid Italian player in the game I can share your pain. Many many a time did the pope try to drag his sorry booty into the game by attacking a weaker state. It happens every so often in Italian campaigns. One time the Byzantines attacked Rome and Naples at the same time, navally. I sent in 4 stacks each of god know what (I forget) with 5 star generals each. The Byz never had a chance.

You would think 'Now thats a grateful Pope' but as soon as i'm gone, two years later the bitch attacks an empty Venice ( I was moving the troops back around)

I had no idea what was going on http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
More frustrating than the attack was the Pope, RAVAGING the trade epicenter of the world in the late High era (I had played from Early).

For some odd ass reason, somtimes later in the game, the Pope feels the urge to expand. I supose he wants to win but unlike others, takes a while to do it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

As for dealing with the Pope.. save the game to the side and decimate him in battle. Do it as many times as many varations as you like. That'll get rid of some pent up anger http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif


As for the VI reference, I can't comment on that. I don't own VI and I don't plan on owning it.

[Snowhobbit]

ive never been attacked by the pope although ive seen the pope Innocentius (ironic huh?) attack and destroy the italians and the sicilians http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[eXistenZi]

I've got a question...If you eliminate the papacy and then abandon their lands and raise taxes (so a rebellion starts), when the papacy reemerges, will they be neutral to you or at war (since you eliminated them).

[Magraev]

You'll only be at war if they reemerge on your lands, neutral if they reappear in rebel provinces.

It REALLY doesn't pay to eliminate the papacy. The reemerging troops are just too tough. Throw them outta rome and let them rot in the papal states. even if they come back neutral you know they're gonna use those high quality troops on you sooner or later.

[The_Emperor]

Why I said to slash and burn everything in the Papal States and Rome is simply because he wouldn't be able to reinforce his troops, and his income will be pitiful with only 2 provinces, no upgraded farms or trading posts and all that army upkeep... He'd be unable to attack anyone.

If you want to weaken him, just flood the place with spies and spawn the odd rebellion in his territory, it will probably fail but a few guys will die cos of it

He can be managed fairly easily when you know how.

[Lord Xeen]

I'm FAIRLY certain he's immune, but since he is a Catholic general, can the Pope be the target of the inquisition?

[lookbeyond23]

The Pope can get his ass whacked by a Inquisitor if his Valor is high enough. I think it needs to be around level 5 to start having a chance. Below 3 i'm pretty sure it's always 0%

Imagine MY SUPRISE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif when I discovered I could do this a long time ago while using Spanish Inquisitors to blast everything Catholic in my path.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[cugel]

I love the Pope in this game He's a treacherous, sadistic, vicious little back-stabbing thug, just like he was in real life The game got the Pope just right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif If anything the real-life Popes were worse (Read E.R. Chamerlin's The Bad Popes for a real eye-opener&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Probably most players don't like him, but Medieval Popes were really just as nasty and treacherous as the game version The only difference is that in real life, most kings generally wouldn't really have the option to kill the Pope and raze Rome to the ground If he comes back, kill him again, just for the fun of running him down as he flees http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[chunkynut]

Never been attacked by the fool but his damned inquisitors always foul up my plans.

Name changed from Pope to Pesky 'Curse'.

Curse scaled 1 - 10 depending on the state of Peskies foolishness.

[Jazzman]

last night the pope attacks me outta the blue, i never attacked him, had completed a number of crusades for him, he attacks, i whip his butt send him fleeing and his response is to ask for crusades against me. i guess cuz i already have 60% of provinces everyones against me. oh well, it was worth seeing him flee with his tail between his legs. as for inquisitor, i have a 4 valour and tried him against pope who has low piety and says 0% chance, so guess you need 5 to have any chance.

[GoldenKnightX2]

If the pope excommunicates you, assasinatte him. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Jazzman @ May 14 2003,09:26)]last night the pope attacks me outta the blue, i never attacked him, had completed a number of crusades for him, he attacks, i whip his butt send him fleeing and his response is to ask for crusades against me. i guess cuz i already have 60% of provinces everyones against me. oh well, it was worth seeing him flee with his tail between his legs. as for inquisitor, i have a 4 valour and tried him against pope who has low piety and says 0% chance, so guess you need 5 to have any chance.
Zeal effects the Chance of Success, so make sure that you have 100% zeal before you try to burn a faction leader (faction leaders also decrease the chance of success)

I had a 5 star Grand Inquisitor, and even with 100% zeal he had a 25% chance of burning the "Atheist Pope"

Assassinations are much easier.

[Demon of Light]

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**Originally posted in Entrance Hall be The Hag**


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I am also a rabid Italian player. I have had the Pope attack me--and even Sicily--several times. One swift war with the Pope can be a really effective tactic short and long term for your game.

It must be swift, however. If you kill the pope, all excommunications are declared null and void by your puppet (including the one on you). So the trick is to be sure to kill him quickly. Surround his unit deep with cav, and keep maneuvering so that he can't run away. If you kill him then you are golden.

Short term you are unexcommunicated (if you were made so by this war or an "unfortunate" situation elsewhere). You will also have Rome for a while, which is not a bad province and is usually fairly well developed. You should be able to keep the Papal states forever, which is a nice provence and gives a star to a general of your choice.

The Pope will return, to be sure. But when he does, just let him have Rome. Move all your units out of Rome and when he returns there will be no declaration of war, no excommunication, no muss no fuss. It all works out. Yeah his returning units are boffo in tech, but you should be able to place an effective deterrent by the time he returns (or just keep him down).

In my current game as the Spanish, the Pope conquered much of Italy. When he eventually challenged me, I drove him all the way back to Sicily. Then a new pope was chosen. Now the Pope is basically exiled to sicily. I am at war with him but not excommunicated. A rare situation, but pretty funny.

[lookbeyond23]

Quote[/b] (GoldenKnightX2 @ May 14 2003,04:55)]If the pope excommunicates you, assasinatte him. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
Well, of course. I have my level 7 Assasian on hand whenever he's not killing heirs to whack the Pope when he annoys me by excommunicating me or an ally

[lookbeyond23]

Quote (The_Emperor @ May 14 2003,05:23)]I had a 5 star Grand Inquisitor, and even with 100% zeal he had a 25% chance of burning the "Atheist Pope"

Assassinations are much easier.[/b]
It reflects real life very much so. I mean, how many times do you read about an iquisitor crucixifing the Pope, then or now.

Assasinations make life simple. 'Specially for a political player like me. I love trade and politics and shy away from large wars when I can. Bribery is my path to victory. Assination and bribery

[Warmongerer]

Playing as the Danes, I once burned a particularly un-pious pope at the stake with a five-star grand inquisitor. Knowing how, historically, many popes have used their religious position for personal gain and not the benefit of Christendom or its followers, this was a very satisfying measure of vengeance.

Most of the time, I just invade Rome and keep three armies of around 800 or so of my better soldiers in the province to deter the nutter from trying to take it back. If I happen to have one of my high-valour assassins within a year's travel of Rome, I just whack the pope and bribe his massive (and usually well-trained) supporting armies to my side. Rather mafioso, but it works well and helps to maintain the large garrison I mentioned earlier.

[MacBeth]

Ive just started an early Italian campaign in the VI upgrade and it seems way different.

Within 30 years Pope Adam has offered me his daughter in marriage - he has already given me 3 lots of 1000 florins and my second Doges heirs have started coming out with 6 and 7 command stars.

This is not how I remember the Italian faction in the old MTW. They seem much stronger now.

[Bob the Insane]

Quote[/b] (MacBeth @ May 15 2003,07:32)]Within 30 years Pope Adam has offered me his daughter in marriage
Yikes.. the popes daughter?? Times have really changed... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[GoldenKnightX2]

Quote[/b] (MacBeth @ May 15 2003,07:32)]Within 30 years Pope Adam has offered me his daughter in marriage
Is the pope supposed to get married http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif