castle level degrades after siege?

[hiver77]

Pre-VI, I thought if you attack a castle instead of just siegeing the castle won't drop in level, i.e a keep doesnt become a fort.

That was the only reason you'd do a castle attack, no?

Now after VI, the castle level drops even though I ended the siege early http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif

[Hakonarson]

As it should really - think about it - you attack hte castle, knock down it's walls and it doesnt' lose anything, but if you sit outside it an do no damage it crumbles??

The loss of a level pre-VI is IMO only a game balance mechanism because beseigers lost no casualties while waiting - otherwise there'd be no incentive to assault at all.

[Nowake]

it's not only about game balance, it's about hystorical accuracy too

[Brutal DLX]

Heh. historically they tore the castle down and didn't rebuild it. Look at your Cetatea Alba http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[hiver77]

Guess you're right...

but in my opinion, if I chose to storm the gate (and thus losing tons of men) and yet keeping most of the structure intact, the castle shouldnt drop.

If I used artillery, then sure...

Btw, I just stormed a castle, destroyed the walls and it didnt drop a level... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Brutal DLX]

Perhaps it had an upgrade like keep with additional walls. That counts as one level, so after storming , you now have the keep only.

[Asmodeus]

I dont think it's consistant.

I'm playing the Aragonese and I've faught a desperate battle for the Iberian provinces after Spain was torn apart by civil war.

I attacked a Citadel in Cordoba and only had 3 catapults to break my way in. One got destroyed by the catapult towers and the remaining two managed to breach the outer wall ok but ran out of ammo when the inner wall was damaged to 92% http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Anyway I siezed the outer area without much difficulty but then i had to force the gate to breach the inner wall. Even though i'd read all about the changes to the sieges in the new version (flaming arrows etc) I'd somehow forgotten the boiling oil http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif I wasnt actually watching but I suddenly heard all these terrible screams and my unit routing. It cost me a hell of a lot to force the gate open.

In the end i got the province with the Citadel and almost all the buildings intact http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But the next turn I attacked Castile which had a normal Castle and after assaulting it (easily this time) it was degraded to a Keep http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

So it could be random or perhaps it was because with the Citadel, i didnt destroy the inner walls but instead used the gate?

[Brutal DLX]

As I said, check the upgrade stats before you attack. The citadel could have had a barbican, the castle may have been just the castle, without any upgrades such as walls and cat. towers. It still could be inconsistant, but you have to eliminate any other possibilities first.

[eat cold steel]

Yep it is not consistant, there is a random chance of downgrade. The higher the level the less chance of being downgraded, it keeps the building inside safer too.

[Brutal DLX]

Thanks for clearing that up, ECS

[Jagger]

Remember that a good spy can unlock the gates at night. The castle falls without a fight. And from my experience, no damage to the buildings or castle.

[Asmodeus]

I've heard Spies can do this but i've never tried (feels a twinge of guilt for a lot of weeping Aragonese widows) - what % chance to spies have of succeeding though? is it really low like taking out a general with an Assassin?

[Red Harvest]

Quote[/b] (eat cold steel @ May 14 2003,04:48)]Yep it is not consistant, there is a random chance of downgrade. The higher the level the less chance of being downgraded, it keeps the building inside safer too.
ECS,

Cool feature, thanks for explaining. Makes some sense. Was this in the manual and I just overlooked it?

SUGGESTION for future versions: do something more akin to LOTR, where after attacking a castle (or successfully defending) you had to pay money and spend time rebuilding damaged portions. Otherwise, you would end up defending a castle with no gate, no moat, breached wall, no boiling oil, etc. This could be done for autoresolving and full length sieges as well by the randomization you mention.

QUESTION: Is there some randomization to damaging structures during a normal (non-siege) battle as well? When successfully defending as the Viking faction, I've had some structures "disappear" at the end of the battle (upgraded gold mine.) Haven't got it well documented but it happened twice in the same province so I don't think it is my mind playing tricks on me.

PRAISE: I like the overall changes to prevent AI province swapping by keeping most structures intact until siege is resolved. Also like the fact that besiegers take casualties. Looks like siege autoresolve works better as well but I've not been scientific about checking this yet (just noticed I took substantial casualties when I tried autoresolve.) There were some other bugs/odd features with sieges on the old MTW bug list relating to "aborted castle assualt loyalty" and larger garrisons holding out for decades if they came in a defeated relieving attempt, etc., but I haven't checked them yet--just noticed that I haven't seen these turn up yet in the VI portion of the game.

[SmokWawelski]

I have tried to do the spy trick several times, but was never successful...

[Nelson]

I like the new siege mechanics a lot.

Asmodeus, in adition to his skill, a spy’s chance to succeed seems to depend on the size of the garrison and/or the duration of the siege thus far. I try to use a spy before every assault because on occasion the odds of opening the gates are 100%.

[SmokWawelski]

Never seen 100% in my games. What level was that on?

[insolent1]

Pre VI i found that the chances of a spy miproved as the seige went on. It would normally be quiet good just before it falls

[Jagger]

Each turn that the castle garrison is reduced increases the chance that a spy will be able to open the gates. If you can time your attempt to the year before it falls, you will have your best chance of success.

I have had 3-4 star spies with 67 percent plus chance of success when the garrison is at a minimum.

Getting the province intact saves both money and time in rebuilding the province. Spies are great.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (SmokWawelski @ May 14 2003,14:44)]Never seen 100% in my games. What level was that on?


Normal at the least.