View Full Version : do armor/weap ugrades really matter?
solypsist
06-10-2003, 01:18
i've been spending more and more time in the MP and have to wonder just how effective armor and weap upgrades are. or am i better off just spending my points on valour?
someone help a confused soly out....
(today i was o-5 for some awful reason)
Soly:
I put the vast majority into valor, rarely armor.
Sometimes when I have a little florins I spread it out buying a weapon upgrade, but rarely more than A1 for any unit.
Now, regarding the girls in your Tavern threads: where did all the money go? (as Robert Palmer once said, 'she's so fine, there's no tellin where the money went'http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
ichi
Soly,
Valor is not everything. Armor and Weapons are the secret sauce of an army.
Take an example: val4 pavise arbalesters would probably hold cav quite good. But they cost as much as a val0 knight and still they run like little girls. But val4 pav. arb. is actually lose out to val0 + arm3 pav. arb. in a missile duel, which costs much less. That's right. +arm increase armor, which decreases chance to get killed by missiles, while +val only increase hand-to-hand combat (attack + defense) with no help against missiles.
My armies still run around like little girls though... for completely different reasons.
Annie
Yes spend most on valour and rest on weapon upgrades... for melee units. Missile units works nicely with armour upgrades. Pavs with 3 upgrades is practically the standard now.
CBR
Soly,
I looked at the army you fielded in that MP game we were allied in today, and I would have upgraded the Saracen infantry in a different way for a three reasons. You had v2w2a1 for 2117 florins. A valor upgrade (1.70 florins) provides the same combat power increase (1.44) and is cheaper than two weapon upgrades (1.77 florins), and the valor upgrade provides +2 morale. The Saracen inf starts out with a low morale of 0 and would benefit from the additional +2 morale it would have at v3. Also, at 2117 florins the v2w2a1 Saracen inf seems out of line costwise with the rest of the army. You get diminishing returns on upgrades, and a very expensive final upgrade on a unit could purchase several upgrades on lower cost units.
A v3w0a0 Saracen inf unit would cost 1474 florins. It has one less combat point and one less armor than the v2w2a1 unit at 2117, but +2 morale. Chances are it will function about as well as the more expensive unit. If you definitely want the additional armor and combat point, you could buy a v3w0a1 Saracen inf for 2034 which would give a unit slightly more defensive than the v2w2a1 unit. That final a1 upgrade is costing 560 florins.
Specifically you had 4 Saracen Inf units:
2 v2w2a1 at 2117 each
1 v2w1a1 at 1591
1 v1w1a1 at 936
total cost = 6761
That's 45% of the total 15k. A big chunck to be spending on a defensive unit like spears leaving the rest of your army relatively weaker than your opponent who only fielded two v2 Italian light inf spear units at 1156 each and 7 spear shreding sword/poleaxe units.
If you want to stick with 4 Saracen Inf, I would try four v3w0a0 at 1474 each for a total of 5896. It's a challenge to win with an army containing 4 spears because they usually don't get many kills. If you want to pump a unit or two into the 2000 florin range as a killer unit, I would choose a more offensive unit like a sword for that. You could also field low valor high armor spears to protect ranged units from cav and absorb enemy ranged fire, but I believe most players use cav to protect their ranged units.
yea, with the base morale improvement in VI, p.xbow with v0w0a3 can even hold off a good h2h unit for a good time.
except for missile, valor upgrading other units is more effective. and since in VI units cannot gain valor during battle, upgrade to w2 is not as effective as upgrading by another valor imo.
one of the only missile units that I upgrade to v4 is the camel-archers. at the flank they are very effective in providing close fire support to the front h2h (since missile kills more now), as well as deterring enemy cav flanking.. watch out though as they arent good vs foot units, and die fast from missiles. I've lots of fun with the almohads' camels army even in lush.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-10-2003, 15:47
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Soly,
If you happen to upgrade both weapon and armor, then you will be better off upgrading valor, with the following pros / cons;
1/ it's cheaper than improving both weapon and armor
2/ it gives +2 moral
3/ but it does not add up to armor (ir protection vs missile).
Overall improving valor over weapon + armor seems to be better, however there are a few cases where you just want weapon or armor and don't need the morale boost;
1/ missile; you want armor to resist other missile. Valor does not boost defense vs missile.... Valor makes little difference in missile ability (not boosting much precision lethality or whatever else)...
2/ possibly heavy cav or other shock troop with high starting morale. Those already starts with a 8 morale and usually does not need much more... Usually given their purpose (shock) weapon upgrade are recommanded...
To have or not to have saracen inf is another question...
Louis the Simurgh,
Don't forget that upgrades on ranged units receive a discount. Many of the ranged units can become quite effective in hand-to-hand with some discounted valor upgrades.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-10-2003, 16:20
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ June 10 2003,10:04)]Don't forget that upgrades on ranged units receive a discount. Many of the ranged units can become quite effective in hand-to-hand with some discounted valor upgrades.
Really ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
No Louis. It's just my truth that I'm trying to manipulate you into believing.
The costs equation has many variables that it is faster to implement a lookup table :)
Annie
Ann if you have already work the tables out, mind sharing it? It a tedious job to check one by one in custom http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-10-2003, 18:36
And it works fine Yuuki, I can't stop massively upgrading all my missile troops http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
So Soly, if you want to use your missile for missile duel, then upgrade armor, but if you want your missile troops to be used for h2h fight like CMAA and the like, then upgrade valor.
Missile that can make ok sword fighters if pumped up high enough; turk hibryds (futu, JI, Otto inf and the like), Nizari, Longbowmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif , handgunner, and why not, arquebusiers... May have forgotten some...
Louis the Simurgh,
Damn Yuuki now why did you tell Louis about missile upgrades. Soon we will see loads of silly JI.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
CBR
CBR, Louis already knows. He posted the thread on missile units upgrade. Here is the discount table (from same thread):
LONG 250 244 "Longbows"
LONG 250 228 "WelshBandits"
SBOW 200 200 "DesertArchers", "TrebizondArchers",
"GenoeseSailors", "BulgarianBrigands"
"Futuwwa", "Turcomanfoot"
"JanissaryBows", "OttomanInfantry"
"GoldenHordeWarriors"
SBOW 200 85 "Hashishins"
SBOW 200 175 "Archers"
SBOW 200 192 "Nizari"
SBOW 200 195 "JanissaryInfantry"
MTLG 170 198 "TurcomanHorse", "Turcopole", "BerberCamel"
MTLG 170 198 "MamlukHorseArchers", "SipahiOfThePorte"
MTLG 170 150 "HorseArchers"
MTLG 170 192 "GoldenHordeHorseArchers", "Faris", "Szekely"
MTLG 170 190 "ByzantineCavalry"
MTLG 170 179 "Boyar"
MTLG 170 186 "SteppeHeavyCavalry"
JAV 80 93 "SpanishJinetes"
JAV 80 76 "Almughavars" , "MurabitinInfantry", "Kern"
JAV 80 80 "Jobbagy"
JAV 80 75 "SlavJavelinmen", "SpanishJavelinmen"
XBOW 135 157 "MountedCrossbows",
XBOW 135 135 "PaviseCrossbows", "Crossbows", "PictishCrossbows"
XBOW 135 157 "PictishMountedCrossbows"
ARB 205 205 "PaviseArbalester", "Arbalester"
GREN 350 150 "NapthaThrowers"
ARQB 120 120 "Arquebusier"
HGUN 70 70 "HandGun"
HGUN 70 50 "MamlukHandgun"
HSP 80 122 "Bonnachts"
DART 80 80 "IrishDartmen"
The first column is the weapon used for missile.
The second column is the cost of missile found in Projectile Stat File.
The third column is the actual cost of missile, found out by examining the logfiles and also the tedious custom battle setup to find the cost after upgrades and do the extrapolation (Almircar's works).
The 4th column is the units names.
Let's call 3rd column M, for missile costs.
Let's call I the initial unit costs (found in Crusader and Viking Unit Prod Stats),
Let's call V, W and A the upgrades for Valor, Weapon and Armor;
then the actual cost is:
(I - M)*(V*1.7)*(W*1.33)*(A*1.37) + M.
The only thing missing is the unit costs, which could also be found in the spreadsheet published. Just plug the above equations into the spreadsheet and you have the cost tables.
Annie
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