Question?

[Dimeola]

I hope I can word this properly. Let me say first that I love this game. Have had so much fun playing online, nothing in SP can compare. But I am at a point to say screw this. Am aware of the tenets of warfare....not being flanked or threatened in flank...not being outnumbered....being supported by ally....losses to ranged units.....sword vs spear vs cav etc. how many times have I seen a nice supported line of battle without ranged losses run in the first minute....and I think `WTF'. We are talking V3 Huscarles (Saxon). But has happenned in MTW as well. Once in awhile I understand. But has been too often lately. And seemingly for no reason.
Thx to all those who fought by my side....to all those who were patient ....and who gave advice.
Croaker

[Ryttare]

Im not really sure what it is u are asking??

[Dimeola]

Other than being flanked....outnumbered....flanks threatened.....exhausted from running....having been bowed to death....what the F@#$ would make V3 good units run quick. Am tired of spending time getting into a game and having a good position and inexplicably my units run. Example my last game. Am left end. No archer deul....v3 mostly Huscarle and armored spear V3. Ally to right. Not tired...not outnumbered. Flank not threatened....yet within 30 seconds they break and run. As far as my knowledge and experience go I set everything up correctly. And I hate to sound like a dumbass. But whats the use of playing and wasting my time when they inexplicably run?
Am just very frustrated. And feel like its a waste of time.
Croaker

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Can you post a replay or screenshot that we have a chance to explain or comment or debug?

Louis the Simurgh,

[Alastair II]

I take it that your units are running away during a melee? If so, I think it's the same problem I'm having. Oftentimes, I'm in a melee, I don't really have a clue which way it'll go, and it goes one way or another without any real flank, exhaustedness, or isolation.

BTW, as a tip on your English (which I assume is your second language), you must use the 'I' before 'am' even when it's obvious that 'am' is in the first person. It's redundant, but it makes it sound better to native English speakers (like me). "I'm" is the proper contraction to use in places where you seem to use 'Am.'

[tgi01]

Hmmm without seeing a replay its difficult to say why your units run away ....

There is an almost complete morale effects description in the good ronins topic :

Good Ronins from the Barracks (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=4;t=2379;st=25)

Read Crandeolons post for details.

regards

TGI

[Dimeola]

Thx for the replies. Yes English is my second language...I`m from Texas. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Perhaps I should ask this question instead......in a 15K game, where you cannot buy all great troops and give them Valor of 3.....the better troops get a V of 2 and the lesser troops get a V of 3. My troop choosing must be rat@#$, because I see alot of knights.....that I cant afford on MY 15K. Have fought battles with very similar armies on both sides but seems the opponent has superior valor. Guess am just missing it.
Ahh, forget it.
Croaker

[ShadesPanther]

Some more experienced players take a cav heavy army which is quite riky because.
a)If the enemy has a lot of anti cav his horsies are gonna be their mane course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
b) his infantry will be poor so they can be easily smashed ad then it will be up to his few cav units to stop your onslaught so just encircle them.

Really he will have to rely on holding up your infantry and have his cav very quickly get behind and try to induce a mass rout.
Try to hold him long enough or put anti cav on the wings supported by some cav

[Skomatth]

Unfortunately, army selection has a lot to do with your performance. I wrote an article and included these armies as suggestions. It was with 1.1 so you may not be able to buy the exact army. Just some armour off arbs or something.

Stragtegy Article (http://www.clankenchikuka.com/kenchi/news_story.asp?newsid=67)

[RTKLamorak]

i think it is just more experience that is needed..... yes there are a lot of combat modifiers working now... but you'l see solypist recently posted a "why are my units routing thread" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif everyones advice in there was to keep at it, and it will happen less.... Which is totally true. When you fully (well never FULLY) understand the games morale you'l be amazed at how even small units can be kept going to their death. A replay would help those more experienced to decifer the actual reasons for the routs you speak of, as our friend Louis has already offered http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif. the effect of routing units on your army is substantial.. if only 1 archer is attacked.. and is running thru your swords those swords will suffer a significant morale penealty. With a powerful attack units following..pushing thru your swords with those archer battleing to run thru their friends can cause the chain rout effect to occur, and subsequently your army is likely to fall, of course unless you are making progress on the other flank or something.

the proximity of friendly units is another big one. I was once asked whether i was using a "cheat code" when my alan mercenary cav routed 60 billmen losing only 3 horses. (this was 1.1 tho) At the time he obviously thought that rout ridiculous to even ask if i was cheating. However, the reason was that after a skirmish with my cav he sent a lone billmen out to intercept. I pulled back my main army/pavs and dragged him halfway between both of our pavs... i started shooting at the billmen with all 3 pavs of mine and hit them with the alans from the side and, as id now expect from the the volume of games ive played/learned from that unit broke almost instantly, and simply follwoing the routing units with my attck force the game was over all to quickly

ok im going a bit off the point now.. without a replay we cant help you with identfying the reasons for the routs you speak of.. but .. i can assure you it wasnt for no reason at all, or just "random" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
so ... come back online, and try to figure out the places where you need to improve. Mabye watch some of the CWB replays that have been played.. i think they are at the .org or close by anyway and you will learn a lot from them. After over a year and a half playing TotalWar i still learn a lot from them. some of our communitys greatest players have fought in the CWB competition, and they are truely great to watch to hope you get the motivation come back on croaker. c ya mate

[Dimeola]

I am taking a break from this game. What a wasted evening. Its tough to find a game of VI.....and populating one also. Then the server crashes on one you do start. When I finally get into one...guess what, they run like women. Line of swordsmen backed by It Inf....all V3. No discernable factors for retreat. Yet they run with very few losses. I set everything up for success and end in failure, whats the point. Thx to many friends. Maybe i`ll be back.
Croaker

[RTKLamorak]

did u save the replay?

[Dimeola]

Just played my last game for awhile...a victory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thx for your help....gonna concentrate on learning Max for awhile. Will lurk and contribute some artwork. Until I figure it out there`s really no point. Topic closed.
The Black Company is on vacation.
Croaker

[LadyAnn]

I think the clue is this: v3 Karl.

Karls are expensive units. At 425 a piece, val3 means they costs about 2000 bucks a piece. Three of 4 of them would have costs you 1/3 or half of your 15k budget. Leaving the rest of your army very weak. Coupled with val3 spears, the rest of your army would be starving.

I suggest you give Karl less valor and send more money for the rest of your troops. There is a penalty for seeing friends running away, so even high morale (12) house karl would run if:
1. 8-12 friendly units run away (they would given their meager salaries) (maorale penalty);
2. Flanks get threaten by ran away (another morale penalty);
3. Out numbered (the ratio of enemy vs. friendly units around);
4. Tired (the fewer units having to fight much longer because their friends didn't do the job).

Any 3 combinations above would deplete your morale 12 Karl easily to -16 and then they will run.

I would suggest you rebalance your army, giving less to expensive units and more to less expensive one. Remember that when you give +1 val to a unit, you increase attack and defense by 20% each, but you pay 70% more. It would cost you 800 bucks to go from Karl val2 to Karl val3. Those 800 bucks would increase valor to a couple of other less expensive units.

[EDIT]

I read your last posts now and found again:

It.Inf. should back by the swordmen, not vice versa. The problem is that when you put spears behind, you are not using the spears' high charge bonus at all (also, spears are usually put on HoldFormation automatically, making these guys not participating in combat if there were friendly units in front).

I think also you may run into costs problem: It.Inf. are one of the most expensive units (not as expensive as Karls).

Annie

[tootee]

Good points. For a start, try even out the florin spend on your foot troops. E.g. at 15k, say you get 4 foot-missles @ v0w0a3, 4 cav costing 800 to 1000+ each.. divide the remaining florins by 8 (16-4-4), so on average each foot trooper should be around 1.2k (so a good range will be 1.0k+ to 1.4+ florins). This a simple way to ensure each of them is almost equal in 'strength' without really knowing their stats. An even spread of sword/spear/axe should give a good enjoyable army which is flexible to use.



But of course the best will be to know the unit stats and do your army balance to the details. There are some units that are just plain cost-ineffective, so if you go by the suggested method, its just a waste of good money.

[Brutal DLX]

Yes, I agree. Good units should get less upgrades of any sorts. But you need to upgrade your spearmen or they are useless. Italian Inf. is ok in price if you don't take too many of them.

[Dimeola]

Cool, thank you, this gives me something to work on. And that comparison tool is excellent. Looks like Viking Carls need a morale boost as well as spear. But not so much for Huscarles and landsmen. Guess i`ll never understand why with 15K sometimes my enemy has better quality and I seem to have better Valor but I run fast. Just have to work more on my selection. And I was just letting my archers run back thru my line.....not good.
Usually with a Viking army will get a Huscarle as Gen...3 bow with extra armor (+2 or 3)...2 Arm spear....Landsmen and Carls and 1 or 2 Huscarle, and 2 cav.
One tactic for spear since Vikes have only Lt Cav was to post them second line on flanks....lure cav to charge the edge of first line or attempt an end run at Bow. Run up a Carl or Landsmen to engage and `pin` them.....then swing Arm Spear around their flank to hit them. My reserve Huscarle moves over to cover their flank. It has worked very well.
And the lineup on the front....do you alternate sword and spear? Once had a line of sword.....only to have HC charge straight down the gut and break them. Now try to somewhat alternate. I take it spear are good for the charge but sword better for the ongoing melee.
Anyways thx....have something to work with.
Croaker

[LadyAnn]

Croaker, you may watch the other thread where people talk about Jom Vikings. May be I misunderstood you, but if you chose Vikings Army, you need to have some of those nasty Jom.Vik.

Again, if you are using Viking Army and worry about weak cavalry, then spears are the deterrent to enemy cavalry that threaten your flanks, perhaps not the center force you may want to use them.

But those are just ideas. Experiment with it and find suitable style for you is best.

Annie

[Dimeola]

Thx Annie,
Yes, usually have an Arm Spear on each flank. But was abusing valor and purchasing wrong units.....so couldnt afford more than 1 Joms. Now I know why.
Thank you m`lady *bows graciously*
Croaker

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Hum... regarding vikings landsmen, housecarle, jomviking and so on... I don't have the cost spreadsheet in front of me but from the top of my head, I think you can give a landsmen the same stat as a jom for pretty much the same amount of money.

All those are pretty close to each other with a one upgrade valor difference, which make them cost equivalent... So pick up whichever you want, but just be sure to give them the proper upgrade.

Regarding upgrade, depending on fl level, you need to target 6/8 morale range for your h2h units. For missile units, morale / valor does not impact efficiency as mush as for a spear or sword unit. In other word a unit starting with a morale of 8 does not need a valor upgrade...
If you know that a unit has a special purpose, and will have to fight alone, split from the main group, you may need to boost morale further. Units fighting cav may also need a morale booster, or stay grouped.

V3 huscarle are likely to be over 8 morale, you might want to consider a V2 huscarle.

Saving replay is interesting; it will show you which units routs first and in which circumstances so that you can either boost that unit or change the circumstances...

Louis the Simurgh,

[LadyAnn]

Louis St-Simurgh,

What you said is correct regarding Canadian Huscarles vs. Joms Canadians : val.1 Canadian Housewife is exactly same as val.0 Jump Canadian.

The Canadian Karls are a bit less expensive than the Canadian Lansmen, but has 2 morale points less. If upgrade to same stat as Jump and Housewife, it would cost much more.

And then there is the Saxophone Housewife (Hillary?) which has same stat as the Canadian one. That means they can be as Canadian as JomsCanadian can be if upgrade properly.

But nothing is truely equivalent absolutely. There are those newbies game of 99999, where Housewife is running out of things she could buy, while Joms can go a bit further.

Annie
ps.: of course, use the stat reader http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif An

If I upgrade a Viking landsmen up to morale 8 (V2w0a0), I end up with Attack 5 / def 5 for 578 cash points (coupon taken on tuesday, exchange with chatmonitor). A very attractive option for the strapped cash Canadian housewives.

The v0 Jommy cost 725 and is equivalent to the Housesquirell v1 at 722. The Jommy looks better, and for 3 florouze, who wants a squirrel? Both have morale 8, att5, def 7. (Those squirell are tough but would be well advised to avoid Smurfwood)

Then you rightly point at the New Jersey special blond, which properly upgraded and dressed (with v3) cost 737 florouze with morale 8 Att6 Def6. Sure she comes with a funny guys and a saxophone, but honestly, for the same sum off Att+ def and morale, I got Armor Piercing squirrel...

The last question is do you take a 150 fl discount and take a smelly landsmenn home (with 2 less in defense) or do you prefer to hang out with a squirell?

This is the choice you face playing the Viking faction...

Louis the Simurgh,

PS; and for only 37 439 fl is available now the perfect Jommy... Not sure a Canadian Housewives would run out of things she could buy when those babes are around, even with a 99 999 credit. It's so easy to have a crunch on those guys... Isn't it An?