It's a trap!

[The Gauch0]

I'd like to hear some success stories against the AI or other players. Many of the great victories in history involved luring enemy units into traps to turn the tide of battle or overcome superior numbers or troops--for instance, placing a "soft unit" at a key point in the line, falling back with that unit when enemy cavalry or heavy infantry charge, and then surrounding the enemy unit with well-placed spear units once it pushes through the hole.

I've found it fairly easy to carry out such maneuvers with small engagements, but much more difficult to pull them off in large battles between well-matched armies. I'd like to hear some success stories about trick tactics that have worked (so I can copy them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ).

Let the bragging begin

[Brutal DLX]

Not much bragging, it's easy to lure the AI into a forest ambush, but vs. human opponents it's unlikely that such traps work, because if they're somewhat competent, they'll scout the woods before.
If you want to practice setting traps or doing an ambush, I suggest playing the Mongol historical campaign, one battle, Liegnitz, I think, has most of your forces hidden in the trees uphill, while the Polish and the Germans advance toward your Heavy Cavalry through a narrow valley. Perfect spot to attack.

[Nowake]

Yup, it was a pleasure killing those teutons an their grand master http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Crash]

Whenever the terrain is right, I hide one wing of my army in the woods, consisting of my best attackers. The rest of the army is in the open and further back, with all the archers in a skirmish line as bait for an enemy charge. Once the enemy has passed by my hidden units, they swing into the flank and rear of the attackers, and then the units of the my main line also attack. I hold back a unit of light calvary to cut down the routed enemy units as they flee. There's not much left of the enemy army after that.

I've done this a few times, but it's not hard to fool the AI with good tactics and woods convenient to hide units in. As has been said before, a human general always suspect an ambush in wooded terrain.

[The Gauch0]

This is getting interesting I'm surprised to hear some people use woods regularly to good effect. I don't try it much because it seems like my units are usually spotted before the enemy is in charging range. What are some tips for setting an effective trap using woods?

[Satyr]

I don't use the stinking woods. The AI is too stupid to handle this well and I consider it cheesy. Same goes for parking on the hill on the edge of the map.

I much prefer to get up even on the hill with the AI and use my archers and cav to pick his units off with extended skirmishing and cav charges. Once his morale is down a bit, then line the melee troops up appropriately and charge.

[Lazul]

Well i personaly hate wood, i prefer i very large hill to stand on.
I tend to be vary passiv in battles.
E.X: Archers packed together and alot of spears around them so they cant be flanked.
But with the archers i keep some good shock troops, like the Gazi fellows(loves them fanatics).
Then when the enemy advance i send the cav to just be anoying using horse archers mostly.
The enemys closes in the arhcers(cross and arba to) starts firing. So the enemy tend to send up his shock troops to try and batter there way through my lines, but when the get close... Tada... my Gazis or something of the like storms down and breaks them easly. Then.. the computer have nothing to break my spears with... battle won http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif (sorry for bad spelling)

[Crash]

I almost have to agree with Mary about using woods and hills being cheesy, because it's so easy to outsmart the AI on the battlefield.

Hiding in the woods is not that easy though. To keep from being spotted too soon, they have to be pretty deep in the woods, so the terrain is not always to conducive to this tactic. Being deep in the woods also means that it takes longer for your hidden units to move out, so the timing of your maneuvers are important.

Defending a tall hill on the corner of the map is too easy, I admit. Perhaps the battlefield should be made larger, with the initial deployment area smaller so that it's harder to get to and deploy in a corner of the map.

[The Gauch0]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like playing VI (either campaign) on expert level makes it very difficult to at least initially deploy troops in the edge of the map. I've primarily been involved in offensive battles in my current campaign, so I can't say for sure, but I remember being surprised on a few occasions when I looked for edge-of-the-map deployment opportunities (to compensate for being drastically outnumbered, of course) and was unable to do so. This might be a change with VI, an effect of the expert difficulty setting, or my imagination.

I'm really intrigued by the talk of hiding in woods being too easy. I tried it a couple of times early on and it didn't work, so I've never experimented with it since. Do you find it effective to split your army or just run a flank deep into the woods?

[Dimeola]

Multiplayer as Vikings.....Opponent often tries to flank with heavier cav. On edges of front line put Carls....1 Carl behind and Spear behind. A 3 sided box. I let the enemy cav charge into harrass the bowline and hit them with line 2 Carls. Who pin them while Spear swings into their rear. If they have most of their cav together they will try and use them to support the initial attack. I then do the same again. Pin with sword and flank with spear. Has worked very well several times.
You can also use the same formation and at impact swing the left and right sides of the 3 sided box out and around to flank enemy line. Variation is the `L` formation. Where the `leg` is on the side away from your ally. If ally is next to you they will protect that flank. Then you have a reinforced column to swing around and flank enemy.
Single Player....on normal fairly easy to get to enemy flanks. Byz loves to maneuver tho.
Croaker

[SeveredSoul]

My favorite ambush was when I was playing a 2 v. 2 on MP. I was the English and my opponent was playing as the French. I had 2 units of SAP's with 3 valour holding my center, 2 units of spearmen on either side of my SAP's. 4 Units of FMAA's and 3 units of Cav.

Stashed in the woods off of my right flank and a bit ahead of my line, were 2 units of those spearmen the you get when you make a crusade. I can't rember what they are called right now, anyway......

The French had an all Cav army and he just CHARGED Right into my spears. n00b. As the battle went on he never even noticed the two units in the woods. My right flank began to waver a bit, so I ran in my hidden units. And turned my part of the battlefield into a glue factory.

Right after his army broke and ran for their lives my opponent said to me "Just like in real life, once again the English destroy the French." I couldn't help but laugh http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Brutal DLX]

You should do it the other way around, Dimeolas, flank with heavy troops and pin cavalry with spears. It's more effective plus it won't result in a chain rout that often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Crash]

Splitting your army or running a flank into the woods can work equally well, but I think the key may be to distract the enemy with your non-hidden units enough so he doesn't bother trying to scout out your hidden ones before attacking. That means you have to give him a compelling reason to attack right away, so that he doesn't have time to detect your lurking units.

The "hiding in the woods" trap works best with an aggressive enemy of course. A cautious attacker will take the more time to scout out the battlefield before taking up it's attack position.

[Dimeola]

Thx Brutal, will try that.
Croaker

[RisingSun]

In single player, its basically impossible to ambush anything, because the AI cheats. I had some cav and one spear in the woods, and it showed them as concealed, yet the enemy marched their entire army at that woode hill instead of the rest of my army in plain sight... In soggy, though, I used to ambush all the time in Shinano. I woul hide havy cav and no-dachi in the woods on either side, and have one single unit (sometimes my king) lure them inmto position, and then WHAM. Don't think I ever lost a battle that way...

[MiniKiller]

I havent played in ages and when I do I get mad casue my comp has probs. Anyway my best in the pasy 3 days was a complete slaughter. I was the Scots and noticed the Vikings left a region nea rme I set my unit of 500 on it and rebels appears aswell. I think there were like 60, not alot but the tuff ones. I send 3 archer units out and when they charged I quickly withdrew them, I sent my 2 horse units in the smash em on the side (hiding in trees) and sent my gen horse unit around to flank em, then I sent my spearmen in. I lost 12 men. They lost...61, odd but thats what it said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Lazul]

defending with canons rules ppl... just had a battle againt the english as a turk and i had 5 demi-canons.
I thought i was screwed but the canons totally crushed them.
My speras held of his cav and i had alot of archers.
The gnlish had some gruops of Billmen (by the way, those billmen killed of all my JHI... easy).
My canons killed so many of the generals billmen that he was nearly alone in the end.. and died.. muahahaaa http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Crash]

I skirmish aggressively with the archers too, preferably horse archers, to lure the attacker into an ambush. Putting archers in their face gets their attention right away, and they chase them right into the trap.

[MiniKiller]

Ya, its like chicken to them or something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Monk]

in bridge battles i only use one tactic: lure the Ai to the left bridge with elite units and my general unit. comit to the battle with atleast 2/3 of my army, take all heavy calvary and light calvaly around the right bridge and destroy the enemy from behind.

[Skomatth]

I conquered asia minor with poland using all cav armies. All horsemen/royal knights/mounted x-bows. Its very easy to work the computer into killing itself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Dimeolas @ June 18 2003,17:20)]Thx Brutal, will try that.
Croaker
The Hammer and Anvil is my favorite tactic (mainly because, if properly executed, it eliminates the target unit wholesale). It's all too easy to get the computer into it, and its attempts to do it to you are very clumsy. Plus the AI sometimes botches it with obvious mistakes, like using too weak units for the holding force. Would a blacksmith use a cardboard anvil? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lotar]

What I've been doing lately is dividing my infantry and calvary. I engage the enemy with my infantry, while I run my calvary wide enough around the enemy that they either don't notice or don't care. Then I bring them around and hit them from behind. It works best on hilly maps, where you can use the hills as a screen.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Lotar @ June 23 2003,23:38)]What I've been doing lately is dividing my infantry and calvary. I engage the enemy with my infantry, while I run my calvary wide enough around the enemy that they either don't notice or don't care. Then I bring them around and hit them from behind. It works best on hilly maps, where you can use the hills as a screen.
One games as the Almohads in hilly terrain, I sent my entire force of Saharan cavalry around the AI, using the hills for screen. Then, as their infantry engaged mine, they were struck from behind and their entire force was destroyed, with only a handful escaping the net. It was a good number of troops; too many to ransom. They had to die... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Skomatth @ June 21 2003,06:29)]I conquered asia minor with poland using all cav armies. All horsemen/royal knights/mounted x-bows. Its very easy to work the computer into killing itself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Agreed .. hope RTW will improve the AI

[Lehesu]

A favorite tactic of mine is to set up my forces in a fairly standard "by-the-book" offensive or defensive formation. Then, I start doing very obvious things and make a show of committing all of my forces to the battle. I leave blind spots in my formation that would make excellent targets for fast moving cavalry. I lure the ai into a sense false security and then........................















































I do nothing about it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Mechstra]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

I was happy today. I beat a fairly good high period army of Russians (Boyars, Halberdiers, Crossbowmen, Archers, Horse Archers) using only peasants. It was a bridge battle, and I was defending, but I knew from past experience that peasants are not good with bridges. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif So, I positioned 5 groups of peasants on either side of the bridge, arrayed in a sort of gauntlet formation, with one unit advancing down the bridge to meet the oncoming army. I made that unit rout, and it ran straight down the corridor of peasants, pursued by the entire enemy force.

I waited until the peasants were at the very end of the gauntlet, and then rallied them, turned, and charged the oncoming soldiers (halberdiers first). While they engaged, the halberdiers taking no casualties whatsoever, I moved the rest of my peasants round and encircled the enemy. Without room to move, the Russians could only fight their way out of the circle of supposedly useless units. I massacred them, partly from the charges by flanking peasants, and partly through sheer weight of numbers.

I took heavy losses, unsurprisingly, but I wasted the enemy army with trash units from a revolt. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[The Gauch0]

I had a similar victory. I was defending a bridge with only two of those javelin units--are they Polish Javelinmen? (I was playing the Hungarians.) I was attacked by the Poles, who brought a unit of armored spearmen and a unit of mounted crossbowmen, plus their general was a three-star, while mine was a one or a zero.

I lined up my javelinmen on either side of the bridge, facing each other, and the Polish armored spearmen crossed the bridge and tried to form up between my two units. My men unleashed their javelins while the Poles were still trying to form a line, and I routed them. They ran back across the bridge, rallied, and crossed again with the same results, only this time they didn't recover. I then waited for the mounted crossbowmen to cross, and they were in skirmish mode, so they ended up pinned with their backs to the river--on my side of the river. After throwing my remaining javelins, I made short work of them with a charge. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif