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DemonArchangel
06-17-2003, 22:15
yea, they're just horse archers on steroids with crappy horses that can't run correctly.

Brutal DLX
06-18-2003, 09:03
They're hybrid units. Ever tried to melee with normal horse archers? And then with the units you spoke about? Notice any difference?

hrvojej
06-18-2003, 09:11
Don't think about them as horse archers, but as medium cavalry who have an added bonus of bows.

DemonArchangel
06-18-2003, 16:47
well,yea but still, you could've told me that before i modded faris and byzantine cavalry

ichi
06-18-2003, 20:23
In the proper hands Faris, Byz Cav, and Boyars are some of the best units in the game.

While not as fast as the light cav (e.g. Saharan or Steppe) they have much better melee fighting stats.

(These stats are from pre-VI)

Byz Cav Horse Archers Steppe Cav Chiv Knights
Charge 2 2 6 8
Melee 3 -1 2 5
Def 3 0 1 6
Armor 4 2 3 7
Honor 4 2 0 8
Ammo 28 28 0 0
Speed 20 24 24 20

While not as strong as the heavy cav (e.g. Chiv Knights, Lancers, Pronoiai) they are as fast and can use the bows to pepper from a distance.

In MP the use of cav archers (including the three types mentioned above) can really frustrate an enemy, making him chase or get out of position. This (again in the hands of a pro) can be turned into a huge strategic advantage.

For example, take a unit of Byz Cav over to the flank where you threaten both the enemies heavy cav (on their flank) and dueling archers (out front). When the cav moves charge the archers and scatter 'em. If the cav sits, thin out their numbers, or let em chase you and get tired.

Against infantry these units can kill from a distance - then when you do engage infantry with your infantry you have the advantage. Then swing these guys around back and smash into the rear of the unit - they are powerful enough fighters to make a big difference.

With the improved ability of units to rally, it helps to have strong,fast units to chase routers all of the way off the field.

ichi

bhutavarna
06-18-2003, 20:48
Personally, I don't like these hybrid cavalries. They're not fast enough as horse archers, and not strong enough as cavalry.

Hakonarson
06-18-2003, 22:03
I disagree - IMO they are the perfect embodiment of the "pocket battleship" concept - fast enough to outrun anything that can beat them hand to hand, strong enough to beat anything that CAN catch them, and they have a missile weapon that's as good as any other horse-mounted one.

DemonArchangel
06-18-2003, 23:14
i did use faris to great effect in my egypt early campaign, now i can safely say that they rock.

but what about the mamluk horse archers, they're too slow

Hakonarson
06-19-2003, 00:05
They are also a medium cavalry type - they have the same speed as Faris, Boyars, most knights, etc (9, 20, 22)

Compared to Faris they are not such a good buy - both cost 375:

Stat: Mameluke Faris
Charge: 2 4
Attack: 3 3
Defence: 1 $1 1 $1
Armour 3 $1 3 $1
Morrale: 4 (elite)4 (Elite, Disciplined)

So the Faris are better on attack, and are disciplined for the same price.

Kongamato
06-19-2003, 00:10
What you have here are some Horse Archers with "instant experience". I dont do campaigns, but what I see here is a unit that does not take several years of fighting and retraining to reach decent stats. Freshly trained, ordinary Horse Archers might not work very well for you if their poor morale ensures that they rout easily when sent off alone, or if their low armor makes them die in great numbers from opposing archer fire. Plus, when these units gain experience of their own, they can be turned into much more of a force than just Horse Archers.

Demon of Light
06-19-2003, 00:15
I used Faris for the first time last night. Suffice to say that I'll never treat them as heavy calvalry again. The unit description led me to believe they would be comparable to Catholic knights but with bows. I'll not trust those descriptions again...

Orda Khan
06-19-2003, 00:23
...not Gothic Knights

.....Orda

Hakonarson
06-19-2003, 00:30
Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ June 18 2003,18:15)]I used Faris for the first time last night. Suffice to say that I'll never treat them as heavy calvalry again. The unit description led me to believe they would be comparable to Catholic knights but with bows. I'll not trust those descriptions again...
You mean you ever did? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Well I guess that jsut goes to show there's one borne every minute http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The descriptions need to be read with a bucketload of salt - 95% is hype, and the otehr 5% is equine or bovine feacal matter http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

Brutal DLX
06-19-2003, 08:06
Quote[/b] (ichi @ June 18 2003,20:23)]In the proper hands Faris, Byz Cav, and Boyars are some of the best units in the game.

In MP the use of cav archers (including the three types mentioned above) can really frustrate an enemy, making him chase or get out of position. This (again in the hands of a pro) can be turned into a huge strategic advantage.

For example, take a unit of Byz Cav over to the flank where you threaten both the enemies heavy cav (on their flank) and dueling archers (out front). When the cav moves charge the archers and scatter 'em. If the cav sits, thin out their numbers, or let em chase you and get tired.

Against infantry these units can kill from a distance - then when you do engage infantry with your infantry you have the advantage. Then swing these guys around back and smash into the rear of the unit - they are powerful enough fighters to make a big difference.

With the improved ability of units to rally, it helps to have strong,fast units to chase routers all of the way off the field.

ichi
I have to disagree a bit here. In MP, you won't make a veteran panic if you use cav archers, because if you get into firing range, it will be mutual, and in all likelyhood you will be greeted by salvos of pav xbows or arbalests. A vet won't chase your horse archers, unless he knows he can pin you in a corner, which is likely if you advanced past his flank.
Also you won't do much missile damage against the heavily armoured Catholic knights, for example.
What is possible, is to use these hybrid units once the battle has been joined, to shoot arrows unopposed by enemy fire at some weakly armoured infantry, or on any other enemy units in the melee, to get their morale down, then charge into the flank or rear to break them and then chase them off the field, as you said. But before that, there are hardly opportunities other than the charge into some missile units that strayed too far from the main body.
Of course, if you use such cav vs. newcomers, you might lure their entire cavalry out and slaughter them at a place of your choice.
Also, I think we have to include the Szekely into this list, I don't have their stats at the moment, but I think they might be the best hybrid unit other then the boyars.

Orda Khan
06-19-2003, 18:33
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ June 19 2003,02:06)]
Also, I think we have to include the Szekely into this list, I don't have their stats at the moment, but I think they might be the best hybrid unit other then the boyars.
Szekelys are good yes but Steppe Heavies are a better unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

......Orda

Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-19-2003, 22:31
I use both the light Turco Horse / Turcopole and the hybrid medium cav, faris/ mam archer, etc, etc...

I find them fun to use, which is mainly what matters.

In MP, most vet set target for their missile... So if you come on the flank, even slightly, chances are that your opponent will have to change of target to get rid of the HA. You can notice change in target, and move away before getting shot. Rince and repeat. It can effectively put off missile duel an ennemy unit but requires lot of micromanagement...
You can go much further on the flank and still have room to flee.. . hum move away if you play on very large map (like maps in mappack 2 in dl section). Much further on the flank mean out of arm of ennemy missile, or requiring your opponent to move his missile... Which is a good thing...

Agreed on small maps, they are more difficult to use well.

Regarding missile efficiency of HA... well, pick up your target carefully. Results are disappointing with units with armor 5 or more. But you can really cripple armor 3 units.

The difference between the medium HA and light one, and which one you shall use mostly depend on your style. I use both http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .
I like that Medium HA can join the fray and actually do something in h2h...

I would like turks to have a medium HA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

Louis the Simurgh,

ichi
06-20-2003, 06:20
Brutal:

No, you probably won't make veterans panic in MP, but if you can get a unit of these on the flank, where pavs aren't focusing, they can be quite effective.

ichi

Brutal DLX
06-20-2003, 10:01
Yes, I agree on large maps they can be used much better for the purpose you describe. But I was talking about the standard maps, sorry. Played too many team games lately http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

A.Saturnus
06-20-2003, 11:17
Quote[/b] ]Szekelys are good yes but Steppe Heavies are a better unit

Not sure about that. You can produce Szekelys in Hungaria with Weapons upgrade. It`s also likely that you`ll get the Master Breeder there earlier. That makes them equal if not better.

Brutal DLX
06-20-2003, 11:57
I think he was referring to MP battles or custom ones, Saturnus. Campaign-wise, you're probably right.

Husar
06-20-2003, 12:30
I´ve used heavy steppe cavalry in my current german campaign. I trained them in Kiew and used a whole army of them(16 units) against the invading Mongoles. They prooved really good in this battle. It was a bridge map and at first I held the bridge with two or three units against mongol heavy cavalry, while all the others pumped arrows into the enemies. After successfully defending the bridge, I went over it and the fight went on on the other side, that might have been dumb, but in the end(I retreated and took Kiew back in the next round as I´ve planned it) the enemies had lost about 1000 men compared to my losses of about 500 men plus their Khan got killed giving me the chance to bribe nearly all of the rebellious mongol armies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You should bear in mind, that you can use horse archers to decimate a superior army by sending a horse-archer-only-army into the enemy´s province, let them pepper the enemies with arrows and then retreat.