Fatigue in very long game

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I have played a few very long MP games recently (by long I mean more than 1 hour).

It seems that after some times (1hour?), fatigue of all units dropped to very tired, and never ever recover to quite tired... Very tired is the best you can expect, and from there, despite being tired, units rout rather easily.

Am I dreaming? Is it a cleaning table effect to be sure game won't last for hours?

If I want a one hour time limit, I can set that up...

Those long games are extremely enjoyable, but would be more enjoyable without this annoying effect, which makes endgame a little bit more random...

Louis the Simurgh,

[Balamir]

So you say that is bad. I'll recommend you just play as a European faction and take heavily armed units with you to a desert. The same effect happens in 20 minutes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Man they didnt even move And so what do you do? you try finishing it quick but you are careful not to rush. Set regular march and look Your knights are exhausted half way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

It kind of annoys me too that the units get tired as they stand. Cant be that bad can it?

[Skomatth]

I have saved several replays of long end games and yes there is a certain point after which after all units lose 1 fatigue bar automatically. I do not however find the fatigue entirely unmanagable. You cant romp around the map and expect your inf units to be fine. first of all you shouldn't chase routers with your inf because it tires them a great deal, and by now most should be aware of a rallying comeback. Once your inf has put down most opposition leave your cav to run after them, reform your inf, wait a couple seconds and then you can walk them to your ally who shouldnt be that separated in the first place.

As to the "cleaning table" effect we want a battle simulator right? I don't see how this is unrealistic. there is going to be a point where men can't recover without a night's sleep.

I'll put the replays up as soon as kenchi's current cwb is over.

[Puzz3D]

You should be able to get back to quite tired in arid climate where it doesn't rain, but it will take quite a while of standing motionless. Even then, you won't be very far into quite tired, and will drop back to very tired fairly quickly once you start moving again. I find very tired units more useable in VI v2.0 than they were in MTW v1.1.

[Orda Khan]

So much has been made of fatigue yet I fail to see what is so bad. I have been in some long battles too and I actually like the way the stress of battle affects the troops, it seems quite realistic to me. I have participated in a very long winter battle in severe conditions where all were on their last legs. I really enjoyed it and would rather more variety of game conditions than perfect conditions every time.

....Orda

[Brutal DLX]

I'd also like to see more diverse maps/weather conditions.
Desert battles are fun, winter battles are fun, battles in rain are fun, but sadly, a lot of peeps just want to play a "balanced" steppe map.

[Shahed]

I would like to see a sort of rest condition, where troops recover strength more quickly but are also more suceptible to attack. This "state" taken some time to get into and out off, so you are more inclined to take troops to cover before resting them.

[Balamir]

Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ June 24 2003,04:07)]but sadly, a lot of peeps just want to play a "balanced" steppe map.
I hate steppes. I really hate them and if there is a reason I dont join a game, that is because it is steppes. To my surprise, I find myself on the attacking side every time in a multiplayer game because I like to read the map and say "hmmmm if I manage to get there maybe I will get the defenders to move and they will lose their advantage" or " that hill between the 2 defenders is difficult to pass so I f we double one of them, the other one wont be in our arses so swiftly." and frankly thats what I find is fun. I am also grateful to desert maps, since it gives me the option to try out muslim factions, I turn out not to be so good at them. A foggy snowy winter map is also a great story but unfortunately I have been able to play such a map only once in the MP lobby.

[Shahed]

Balamir is you are looking for such games, call me in the foyer..online name is Sinan. Alternatively join my game:-

-Usually called The Arena
-Usually no rules except HAVE FUN, BE COURTEOUS & ENJOY THE GAME
-Usually a range of climate/terrain. Definetly will see winter, desert etc.
-Usually a range of eras Viking, Late etc
-Sometimes steppe maps are hosted for lower end PC specs and large 4x4s. Sometimes steppe maps are hosted for the players who cannot perform on more variable terrain, or just do not wish to play anything but steppe.
-Usually the password is banzai.

The Arena will be open for combat tonight from 20:00 - 21:30 CET.

Personally I dont like steppe maps either. There is no terrain tactics available, there are ofc unit tactics avilable. I find that steppe tend to be a match between unit tactics and unit selection. I dont think that is what the game is about. Leaving terrain tactics out is losing half the game. I like steppe for unit vs unit tests, haqve pleyed some interesting games on steppe. Still I alwazs return to the conclusion that varied maps are much more interesting. I dont have any worries about attacking a hill with 2 armies equipped with canon and missile units on it.

Leaving artillery and gunpowder units leaves out a significant variety, fun factor, and ofc new sound and visuals.

Enjoy the game while you can.

[Tempiic]

Besides Sinan's games which i strongly recommened (eventhough I never played in them, but I know Sinan), I think you may want to look for any Mizu, FF or RVN games as well... Though lush steppe maps are picked now and then, so are all the other maps, climates and seasons leaning towards the early and high ages. I believe you may find quite a few avid Muslim players in these clans, who don't limit using them on only desert maps. And I am sure they are willing to give you a few tips http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No matter your time zone, I am sure yours is covered well by these 3 clans

[Brutal DLX]

Heh. Then tonight we're going to have a nice chilly/hot time in the Arena then. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alrowan]

i love all games, hills are some of my favourite to attack, especially 4v4.. you can see some really interesiting team strats

[Shahed]

Thx for the kind words Tempy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Umm just went home for lunch. I have some probs with Windows XP at the moment. I think I better sort that out first.

Probably wont be able to make it for tonight.

[spacecadet]

Well if people would actually download any of the new maps or mappacks then you would have some nice interesting and fair maps to play on.......... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Space

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Oh....

I like desert and winter game a lot. It does change the army I filed a little, and the weather effects are really nice looking (snowstorm / sandstorm).

I don't mind the fatigue effect for it... Which is not that big if one field army with low armor. For sure I don't complain about that. I would like more winter game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Steppe map; no thanks. Give me maps with feature; and most of the large maps in mappack2 are really awesome, interesting and challenging to read.

I just don't like the artificial fatigue downgrade effect that happens with time; I had perfectly non tired units (yes after 1 hour of game), which all of a sudden becomes very tired in a very mechanic way. And I also think that recovery rate are much lower when the game last a very long time.
I think this is enforced to clean the battlefield and makes units easier to rout and finish the game faster.

I am OK with fatigue in general, althought some minor tweak might improved it a little bit (like a rest order see Sinan post), I just don't like that the fatigue system get 'changed' in very very long game.

Louis the Simurgh,

[Balamir]

All those things you have lined up are really tempting Sinan but the thing is I cant get my illegal copy of VI to work on MP. As far as my dad just travelled to Dubai, I'll ask him to keep an eye open if he can see a legal copy of VI. Then I'll be back in MP not for very long since im going to summer camp on 13th July but I'll still take a few lives on my way ehehe. And frankly, I still need a lot of training on 15k, Im more confident on about 25k. Not a problem though.
Alrowan, I agree, taking on a hill on 4v4 is as sweet as Swiss Chocolate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . And tempiic,Im always in for tips as long as they are for free. I had a 2v2 with youif you remember. See if any of these names remind you of anything?

-Odysseus_1816
-The_Praetorian
-KingBalamir

Those are all my names, though they were modified quite a lot with putting clan tags on and off. I figured they look better this way http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[tootee]

talking about maps.. I used to hate the green in STW, but now prefer steppe and other almost flattish maps in MTW, because I really hate the trees in MTW more than boring flat terrain...

I wonder how playable Yamato will be if it was ported to MTW...

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Bump and sum up...

Yuuki,

We talked a little about that. I think after, maybe 45mn of games all units dropped to quite tired (2 bars), which, in the case of a fresh units (yes, i may have some after 45mn...) means losing 2 bars for 'game mechanics'.

Also, recovery rates seems to be much much slower. I am not even sure you can be fresher than quite tired, and going back from very tired to quite tired seems next to impossible (I am not sure I have seen that either)...

I don't like much those cleaning table mechanism... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

Louis the Simurgh,

[Puzz3D]

Louis,

I think there is an equilibrium point to which standing units converge after about 30 min. Arid, fine day, non-desert will give the highest equilibrium point which my own testing showed to be "quite tired" (2 bars), but it feels like it's near the lower end of "quite tired" or it's a narrow range because you drop to "very tired" fairly quickly once you start marching. As I recall (and I'd have to repeat the test to be 100% sure about this), I observed a slower fatigue rate on marching cav in the test, and I remember longjohn saying that he had reduced the fatigue rate on cav slightly for the v1.1 patch. Although, cav also ends up at the same "quite tired" equilibrium point as the inf. I don't know if it's exactly the same point within that quite tired fatigue state. In bad weather or desert, armor affects the fatigue rate, and the equilibrium point after about 30 min could easily be "exhausted". Nothing you can do will get you back up above the standing equilibrium point once you get there.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ July 08 2003,23:29)]Nothing you can do will get you back up above the standing equilibrium point once you get there.
Yes, I think that fatigue recovery rates are tweaked after 30 minutes to make recovery more difficult and ends the game faster.

I personnaly dislike this cleaning table effect and would like it to be removed to make long games more enjoyable. Let's fights and moves tire units out, not the clock. Or at least, let's stabilize at 3 bars...

Louis the Simurgh,

Edit 1; at some points in long games one starts second guessing ennemy fatigue more than anything else... Whether one unit is very tired or exhausted is the most important information, nearly more important than unit type... Wait, let me correct this, the morale penalty from fatigue also gives a slight edge to cav (which wins by routing ennemy...). So morale type does not matter unless it's cav.
Edit 2; let's stabilize at 3 bars in good condition, i am fine with exhausted units in desert or in blizzard.

[Puzz3D]

Louis,

I don't think the equilibrium point changes over time unless the weather changes. Let's run a 60 min test in arid conditions. I have a stopwatch.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Hum... I mean before I reach the 30 mn time limit, I can rest one unit from 2 bars to 3 bars.

After 30 minutes it seems to be impossible.

Either the recovery rate is modified or the convergence point has changed... Or even easier fatigue is capped after 30 mn.

Louis the Simurgh,

[Puzz3D]

I did a multiplayer fatigue test back in May:

Steppe06, arid, fine day. Two spearmen units each set at the back of their zone. One (attacker) marches to just outside archer range (about 3 tiles) of the other unit (defender) and stops.

It took 6 minutes to march from the starting point to 3 tiles away from the other unit. The attacker was "quite fresh" when it got there, and the defender was "fresh". After 3 minutes the attacker recovered to "fresh". After another 10 minutes both attacker and defender dropped to "quite fresh" at the same time. This shows that the fatigue rates are the same for attacker and defender. After another 20 min both attacker and defender dropped to "quite tired". I didn't go further because I know from my custom tests that the units won't drop below "quite tired" in dry weather. This multiplayer test was consistent with custom battle tests that I've run.


So, it takes about 40 min to reach standing equilibrium in dry, arid conditions not 30 min as I said above. Fatigue does act like the fatigue incurred from walking or running is recoverable, but the fatigue incurred from standing is not. I guess you could call this a table clearing effect, but troops would get tired just by standing in the field. Quite tired has a minimal effect on units, and I find that in 15k battles units are still usefull even when very tired.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ July 09 2003,19:23)]Fatigue does act like the fatigue incurred from walking or running is recoverable, but the fatigue incurred from standing is not.
I thought about it as as cap, but your explanation makes sense.

Fatigue incurred from standing not recoverable... Hum... I guess it has to be not recoverable, for it it were not the case, the recovery rate is higher than the 'standing fatigue' rate, making the whole thing moot.

Now do I like this feature... ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Louis the Simurgh,

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

And sorry to have asked you to repeat yourself Yuuki...

Louis the Simurgh,