AI suicide generals

[Kristaps]

Hmm, this used to be fixed in the MTW 1.1 expansion. However, with the VI expansion, suicidal AI general behavior is back... Last night my 3-star English king with one stack of troops got attacked by >3000 well equiped spaniards led by an 8-star general. I thought I was in for some excitement, but alas... The 8-star general (a royal guard unit) advanced way ahead of his army and just stood in front of my lines until he perished under volleys of longbow arrows. The rest of the battle was just the usual slaughter of disenheartened AI troops. ;(

[Portuguese Rebel]

Haven't seen this happen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Maybe this was a one time glitch? Was he the only cavalry in the spanish first stack?

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I have also noticed that in MP vs Ryu...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

but for unknow reasons, his gen is still able to flee and rally and haunts you until the end

Argh Ryu

Louis the Simurgh,

[Hakonarson]

The only repeatable AI general behaviour I've seen is a small element withdrawing from the map ASAP.

Did this happen just the once? If it's not repeatable then it hardly qualifies as behaviour - something to keep an eye out for for sure tho.

[A Nerd]

I've had this happen on several occasions. Sometimes the enemy army is hiding in the woods somewhere and the general is alone in the middle of the field. I've even had a lone general charge my army alone and get killed. Though I have yet to complain. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The Gauch0]

I've been impressed by the sophisticated behavior of enemy generals so far--especially kings. On a number of occasions, I've seen enemy kings retreat when they had no heirs.

I was recently playing the Hungarians against the HRE. I had tried to kill their heirless king with assassins repeatedly in order to knock them out of the game, because they were the only nation that was big enough to seriously threaten me. After that failed a dozen times (their king gained the invincible trait) I attacked him in a poorly-defended location. I brought an army of superior troops, but I made sure his army outnumbered mine so he'd stay and fight. I wanted to kill him on the battlefield, because otherwise he'd just retreat to a safer location. As soon as my troops started to overwhelm his, he withdrew from the battlefield. He gave me no chance at all to engage his unit.

Foiled again http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[Magraev]

eh I don't think you can eliminate the HRE that way - they elect a new emperor if no heirs are available.

[pdoan8]

It only happens to me when the AI is attacking and the AI general's unit is a strong unit, specially cavalry.

In the case that the AI general is leading a med/hvy cavalry unit, he's almost always the first one who charged.

[hrvojej]

I cannot say that I've seen suicidal generals at all in VI. Before they would scout and charge half a map away in front of the army. Now they actually stay in the back, and only charge when everybody else does. And now it's fairly hard to take them out, as they are usually right in the middle of the fray happily hacking away. Overall, the AI is much more aggressive as well, and it's not waiting for you to shoot it to oblivion, the armies actually charge when attacking. Sometimes the general does act as a lure, usually when facing small rebel armies, resulting in quick death, and sometimes the AI sends units one by one when trying to "repel" the archers on defence, but overall I am very pleased with the AI behaviour in the field. Now, if only reinforcements weren't always cavalry first... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Mamushi]

When i saw the title of this thread,I thought you meant generals that throw themselves on the spears,so to speak. You know,you have 3,000 troops in a providence,and the AI attacks with 150 spearmen....that is what always gets me. I want to shout "Last chance, go back to your farms now and no one gets hurt" But I do not think they would listen.

[The Gauch0]

Quote[/b] (Magraev @ June 25 2003,00:52)]eh I don't think you can eliminate the HRE that way - they elect a new emperor if no heirs are available.
You know, I was beginning to suspect it wouldn't work after I assassinated what I thought was their heirless king and a new one was elected I don't remember reading anything about that in the instruction book. Does that work in you favor if you're playing the HRE? In the case of the campaign I discussed above, my own Hungarian king died without heirs (at 56) about eight turns later to end the game. Maybe the next campaign I play will be as the HRE if it means I don't have to worry about my royal family dying off.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ June 24 2003,16:05)]Haven't seen this happen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Maybe this was a one time glitch? Was he the only cavalry in the spanish first stack?
No, actually, they had plenty of jinettes and a couple royal knight units in the first stack...

[The Gauch0]

I have noticed that the AI seems to protect its kings more diligently if they have no heirs. Perhaps if they have a bunch of princes ready to take the throne, they are more likely to lead the charge into battle.

[The_Emperor]

I have seen some very stupid AI Moves on expert difficulty...

Mainly involving how it Moves its generals when under fire or on the attack. I have seen Kings just stand still while my archers make pincushions out of them

It is also very interesting if you are camped out in a good defensive position with the enemy unable to flank you, the AI always tries to flank you and if it cannot its units just move backards and forwards (often within bowshot) until it finally decides to attack with very tired men

[Mechstra]

Yes, I've frequently seen kings and such moving very slightly left and right instead of charging home against bowmen. This usually ends in the close of a dynasty as the monarch becomes a bit of an arrow magnet.

[hrvojej]

Are we all talking about v2.0? In my games, they charge almost immediately when they approach my camped army, especially if they have no missiles. I've seen a lot of dancing in front of my lines before, but not now, and I was quite pleased to see that change.

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Running Backwards @ June 24 2003,23:02)]I've had this happen on several occasions. Sometimes the enemy army is hiding in the woods somewhere and the general is alone in the middle of the field. I've even had a lone general charge my army alone and get killed.
This sounds like an unfortunate side-effect of our desire not to unfairly hide AI generals from human players when the AI wants to try an ambush...

[Demon of Light]

I always wondered about that. The AI general is always visible. Like we have him marked with a homing beacon.

On a different note: The AI does ambushes?

[hrvojej]

Well, your general cannot have a concealed status either AFAIK, so it's the same thing. The only time you don't see the genrals blinking on the map is when they're behind the hill, otherwise they can't be concealed. Invisible units, such as hasishin, will also not be concealed if they are comanding.

[The Gauch0]

Curioser and curioser I'm learning all kinds of new things.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[RisingSun]

Demon of Light hit it right on the head, since when does the AI do ambushes??? I'd like to see a response on this one...

[Portuguese Rebel]

Well... the AI will try to ambush, in inconsistent, incompetent kind of way... That is why the general sometimes is alone. In his flank, hidden in trees, is the main corp of the army. Of course the Humin will spot them real easy since there is no way he won't wonder where are the rest of the units. I think the AI should hide one or two units and not the body of the army, because that gives the trap away...

[Magraev]

Quote[/b] (The Gauch0 @ June 25 2003,07:29)]
Quote[/b] (Magraev @ June 25 2003,00:52)]eh I don't think you can eliminate the HRE that way - they elect a new emperor if no heirs are available.
You know, I was beginning to suspect it wouldn't work after I assassinated what I thought was their heirless king and a new one was elected I don't remember reading anything about that in the instruction book. Does that work in you favor if you're playing the HRE? In the case of the campaign I discussed above, my own Hungarian king died without heirs (at 56) about eight turns later to end the game. Maybe the next campaign I play will be as the HRE if it means I don't have to worry about my royal family dying off.
Yes - you won't die out as a result of heirless kings. You'll probably get a civil war though (at least I had one on the one occasion I tried this).

[Maelstrom]

Quote[/b] (Portuguese Rebel @ June 25 2003,20:51)]Well... the AI will try to ambush, in inconsistent, incompetent kind of way... That is why the general sometimes is alone. In his flank, hidden in trees, is the main corp of the army. Of course the Humin will spot them real easy since there is no way he won't wonder where are the rest of the units. I think the AI should hide one or two units and not the body of the army, because that gives the trap away...
I have been caught, once (and once only), by a beautifully executed AI ambush. He(she?) had just a couple of CMA off to the flank in a wood, and as I closed they rushed out and caught the rear of my flank.

It was very disruptive, and great fun. The AI still surprises me from time to time...

[Portuguese Rebel]

Yeah you can be tricked sometimes but perhaps when the tree area is just right and you aren't paying all that much attention. It's great fun when you lose to the AI http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[The_Emperor]

When attacking I consider all woodland areas to be containg potential hostiles... and often the only way to find out if the enemy is camped within them is to send in your own footmen nearby (of course you, never send cavalry into the woods). But I must admit the AI sucks at an Ambush.

On the defensive I have used woods very well... I once had to defend against the Danes invading Sweden (Playing as the English, and I had a very small garrisson since the Danes are rarely a threat)And I was up against one Unit of Vikings and a Unit of Royal Knights. What Did My Army have? One Unit of Vikings, One Unit of Woodsmen, and One unit of Clansmen rather than Retreat to the stronghold I decided to duke it out right then and there...

I routed their vikings with a good pincer ambush, but the Royal Knights were much harder to dispose of... But fighting commenced in the woods themselves and after heavy lossess and my general running away the leader of the enemy Royal Knights (an heir) was killed and the rest of them were driven off. Talk about edge of the seat Fighting with low morale troops

[Demon of Light]

Getting back on topic, I saw a suicidal AI general yesterday. On a crusade, a 4 star English general sat in Hungary getting ready to attack my brother as the Byz. We thought he would go to Bugaria and we massed our troops there. He instead attacked Serbia where 200 Byz infantry nd 120 Trebizond archers were doing garrison duty. The general promptly and boldly led the assault against the Byz infantry with his Knight Templars IN THE WOODS He was cut down and the Crusaders lost their valor bonus. My brother lost that battle (2800 Crusaders) but when he caught up with the Crusade in Greece, it was much easier fighting their 1 star general than their 4 star general.

[hrvojej]

To be honest, I don't mind seeing the general spearheading his army every once and a while, especially when commanding some dangerous unit. I do it too if it feels right. It gives the sense of heroism and reflects the impetuous morale very well. However, this happens very rarely, and I don't consider it to be troublesome. If you remeber the situations that AI generals would put themselves in during v1.0, there has been a great improvement in this field, and never again did I see general charging half a battlefield ahead of his army, or just standing in front of my lines and waiting for them to show up.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (hrvojej @ June 27 2003,15:45)]If you remeber the situations that AI generals would put themselves in during v1.0, there has been a great improvement in this field, and never again did I see general charging half a battlefield ahead of his army, or just standing in front of my lines and waiting for them to show up.
That's exactly what happened: an 8 star general charged across the whole field way ahead of his army and then just stood in front of my lines waiting for the rest of his army to catch up... Well, when the army finally caught up, there was no general...

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ June 27 2003,15:55)]That's exactly what happened: an 8 star general charged across the whole field way ahead of his army and then just stood in front of my lines waiting for the rest of his army to catch up... Well, when the army finally caught up, there was no general...
Hmmm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
All I can say is that (fortunatelly) I haven't noticed it since v1.0. Generals usually come in the firing range of my missiles at the point when his frontline is already charging mine, except for a few cases I mentioned where it seemed "appropriate".

[Mechstra]

I haven't seen much of this behaviour, but occasionally it does happen (I'm still using v1.1, at least for the next two weeks, when I'll get VI). I use archers extensively (usually Longbowmen, as I play the English a lot) and they make short work of any general foolish enough to stand around in front of arrows.

[Crash]

Well, I once foolishly ran my general up to a unit of arbalesters hoping to draw the enemy army into an ambush. Of course my 5* general was promptly mowed down, and my army subsequently routed. So I guess I'm no better than the AI, except I did it only one time.

Is there a "suicidal" or "stupid but brave" vice for AI generals? Is the AI general trying to draw you into a premature charge, I wonder...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Crash @ June 27 2003,17:39)]Is the AI general trying to draw you into a premature charge, I wonder...
And we must admit that it is in fact sometimes successful. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Sometimes you just can't resist the bait, no matter how reckless it may actually be. I remeber one battle when the enemy general was in a catapult unit. All his army withdrew in a forest nearby, and the only cavalry I had was my general...... etc.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

If the AI was always perfect, I guess that wouldn't be too good either. It's fun to see it making the same mistakes from time to time that I see in myself from time to time.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Crash @ June 27 2003,17:39)]Is there a "suicidal" or "stupid but brave" vice for AI generals? Is the AI general trying to draw you into a premature charge, I wonder...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Hehehe, actually there is a "stupid but brave" vice for the AI generals: the "secret price" and "pride" vices increase valor and decrease command rating. However, they do not appear to change the tactical aspect of the battlefield behavior.

[bighairyman]

does it count if the AI general just sits himself and his army in the woods and allow me to continully(sp) attack him and my cat and kill him?

although i never see a general charge my by themselves.

[Urban Legend]

As for stupid AI generals, anyone remember Centurian? The combat is so similiar. The AI general likes to dash in front and get slaughtered.