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Vlad The Impaler
06-24-2003, 22:04
1.Confederation of dacians

In the times of Roman Empire , the big territory from Lower Danube , between Tisza and Dnister is known as Dacia.The people that lived there were called by the romans “dacians” and by the greek “getae”
“ I named them dacians “ , write Dio Cassius , ex-prefect of Pannonia , “ after the are calling themselves but I know that the greeks call them getae , good or bad.But after my knowledge , the getae are those who live over Hem , near Dnister”
Strabon : “the getae live near Pontus Euxinus ( Black Sea ) and the dacians rule the upper territories from Dnister to Germany” ( Strabon , Geogr[aphica] VII. 3.12 )

From ethnic point of view , the dacians and the getae were the same .Strabon says that the getae speaks the same language like the dacians. ( Strabon , Geogr[aphica] VII. 3.13 )
Herodot called the “the most righteous and the most courageous from the thracs” and the goth historian Iordanes ( sec IV AD )write ,in his “De Get [arum] orig[ine] , the the getae where so well known in the ancient times and this makes the other peoples to consider the Mars , the god of war , was born among them.
Ovidius Publius Naso , the well known poet the lived among the dacians know very well the warrior virtues of this people and he gives to the getae the nickname “indomiti” that means “undefeated” ( Ovidius , Pont[icele] lib[ri] II , 2. v. 3.4)

Esutathius ( in Comment[ariis] ad Dionys[ius] v.304 ) , the archbishop of Thesalonic were a nation that makes tremble his neighbours like Illyrians , Macedonians and Thracs .To revenge the pillage or to called as refferee between his neihbours , the dacians past Danube with their horses even in winter on ice and make even the Macedonians to show them the proper respect

At 184 BC , Filip III, king of Macedonia send a embassy to the dacians to offer an alliance against the romans .the plan was to defeat the popuplations the split the two kingdoms ( dardans ) and after that was accomplished an common military expediton against Rome and entire Italy ( Liviu , Historia Romanae , liber XLI Philippus in Macedoniam rediit , missis ad accolas Istri fluminis barbaros , ut in Italiam irrumperent , solicitandos “)

Diodor Siculus ( in Fragmentum ) reminds us that at 149 BC , a king name Basarban , who rulled the territories from left part of Lower Danube was so much powerful that he imposed on the Macedonian throne an king named Andriscus who pretend that was son of Perseu .

At 44-45 a real heroic figure appears : the king Boerebistas .He constitute an large empire .Strabon write about him that he start to inspire terror to romans .In short time he made an empire defeating the neighbouring populations , sacking Thracia till Macedonia and Illyria , completely defeated the tauriscians and the boi .In his times the military power of dacians rise to 200.000 men .From that times , the romans started to have an continiously preoccupation about this people.
After the defeat of Carthage and conquest of Galia , the dacians appear as the most fearful for the romans ( Horatiu , Odae III “Paene occupatam seditionibus Delevit urbem Dacus”

Caesar , after finished the gauls , wanted to start a campaign against them but his plans were cancelled by his assassination.
From 69 AD , after Tacit , the dacians rulled the both shores of Danube .After this initial success , the romans commanders from the northern borders start to think that the Empire will not resist to an common attack of dacians and germans .
Emperor August make peace with dacians .
In short time their military power started to inspire fear , again ,.
In 86 AD Decebal , one of the most known kings of dacians pass the Danube and beat Oppius Sabinus , the governor of Moesia .Some sources mentioned that this province come under his rule .
Emperor Domitianus called in hurry an big army and personally started an military campaign in Dacia. But after the roman armies approach the natura fortress of Transylvania , their commander , the emperor realised that a peace is urgent.a wholw legion vabquished and his troops were almost exhausted and decimated .
This peace was a disgrace for the Empire; the dacians practically got an tribute in money and engineers for theirs roads.

After the death of Emperor Nerva ( 98 AD ) , his son , the new emperor Traianus , raised at the school of wars , wanted to revenge the humiliation suffered by Diocletianus who bought the peace with money

The first war started in 101 AD and continued in 102 AD and in 103 the peace is signed again.Decebal , still the king of dacians , have to sign an shameful peace.All his war machines and his fortresses have to be destroyed.He also gave back Moesia .
But this peace doesn’t endure .in 104 AD the roman senate declare again Decebal as enemy of the Empire.The reasons were that he didn’t destroy the fortresses , that he gave asylum to Rome enemies and that he tried to make an alliance against romans with Germanic tribes from Lower Danube and in the Orient with the Parthians.

In 105 AD , the roman troops pass the Danube again .Traianus , from strategical reasons , choose to attack straight to the mountains and avoid in this way the powerful dacian cavalry.But it wasn’t such easy ; he was forced to build castra to protect his communications , burn the dacian cities and villages .He also tried an attack trough actual Dobrodgea ( the region between Danuebe and Black Sea ) but he was sttoped by the powerful dacian and Germanic cavalry.
This was ends in 106 AD when the central citadel of Sarmisegetusa fall to the roman armies after a very long siege.Dacia was made an roman province and were builded castra trough all Transylvania.The governor was an Legatus Augusti pro praetor.
The borders of the new province were from Tisa in west , Danube in east .In the north the frontier were undefined , with other words the stretch were the roman armies can go.One of the biggest castra were in Porollissum , near nowdays Cluj-Napoca , Romania.

Is hard to make an good description of this war because the main written documents about this ( Comentarii de bello dacicus by Traianus Emperor and Getica by Dio Chrisostomos ) were lost.
The best we have is the Traian Columna from Rome , sculptured in spirals, but this is an simple figurative history.There are some other stuff to other historians and this is the main source to describe the military power of dacians .This is an short introduction to the lobby I ‘ll make here for introducing the dacians as an playable faction in RTW.

2.Dacian Armies
a.Cavalry
the great general Tucidide write that the “the getae , wich live far over Haemus and the other peoples form that territories , that have the scythae as neibghours , have the same weapos as this ones .They are all cavalry archers”
Trough cavalry the getae found the name “idiomiti” ( undefited ).
At 339 BC , the dacian ( or scythic , not known for sure ) king Atheas wrote to the citizen of Byzantium :“Be aware , don’t make trouble to my fiscal revenues or my horses will drink your water”
Dacian cavalry consist in heavy cavalry and light cavalry.

The light cavalry was as far as it can , free of armour; they have bows , lances and short sword , no shields.They were ready for war at any time.The bows were very solid , made from animal bones .Ovidius in his Pontica wrote about that : “the most of this people doesn’t fear the roman weapons.they have complete trust in their weapons , the bows,and in their horses able to ride to long distance without food or water. There is nobody amongst dacians without an pouch of arrows with viper venom”.
They were also armed with lances that have the form of roman hastae .To the sarmatae cavalry was used a lance called contus and this was very likely as the Macedonian sarissa but not so long.The troops of cavalry that have lances also have round or oval shield with some figurative workings on them , mostly consisting in stylized representation of the sun.this shield was named pelta.

The heavy cavalry was composed by troops that wear lorica or small lamellar armors.
At some of this even the horses were covered with lorica.
The dacians were lorica made from bronze or iron that covered the chest and the back.the weapons of heavy dacian cavalry were a short sword called sicae ( not very long and curved ) , banes and bows.The best of the , the nobles and the elite troops carry falces ( huge straight sword ) .Some of them have war-trained falcons.

A significant part of dacian cavalry was sarmatian by origin ( roxolanae tribe ) and there are some differences.They covered their horses with lorica or small armour of iron or bronze.As an offensive weapon they used a long and straight sword , two-handed( gladius , praelongus , spata ) chained to the hand. Also they carried long lances ( conti ).

Both have , dacians and roxolane saramtians , have helm made by iron or animal bones.their horses were nuttered for not make sounds in case of an ambush.

b.Infantry

Mostly used in mountains war , this was also heavy and light.

The light infantry wear oval shield ( peltas ) bows and short lances ( hastae ) .Some of them have lorica but the most wear leather armour.Also thei have an long knife ( pungio)
This was the backbone of the dacian army

The heavy infantry have helmets and lorica made from iron , bows , sica ( the short curved sword ) , oval shields or round shields and lances.

c.Fortifications and war machines.

Looking at Traian Columna in Rome it is clear that the dacians have many fortifications .most of the battle scenes shows roman legions assaulting fortifications, big fortifications.is well known the “murus dacicus” , the dacian wall made by stones with no mortar on wood skeleton.that makes them proudy elastic when attacked with war-machines.In the same way were raised the old walls of Troja and Tirynt from Pelopones
In the southern part of Transylvania is localized a huge complex of fortifications that encircle a main citadel , Sarmizegetusa , the dacian capital;Impressive ruins are still up today , great solar calendars ( did u know that only the mayan calendar was better than the dacian one ? ) , huge foundantions of towers and walls.Also on all dacian territory can be found today ruins of dacian strongholds among roman castra ruins;
The geographian Ptolemeus wrote about a few cities like :
Docidava , Zusidava , Ziridava , Netidava , Singidava in western parts of Transylvania, Zargidava , Piroboridava in eastern parts of Moldavia , Dausdava and the huge Genucla near the Danube Delta and Acidava and Buridava in south-eastern part of Romania.thease are the most important but are hundreds of other fortresses.U noticed the termination “dava” wich means in dacian language “stronghold” or at least described with this meaning in greeks sources.

About war-machines is clear that tha dacians have some kind of this stuff; they were hegemons of the greek cities localized in the western part of Black Sea , cities like Histria , Tomis , Olbia.How the could impose such a hegemony if they weren’t able to conquer ?
Also the dacians sieged romans castra. Tacit in Historiae III wrote : “In the times of Vitelius , the people of dacians rise having no fear .At the start the do nothing , being just simple spectators but when Italy was in war they attacked the winter castra of cohors and take as masters the both sides of Danube and when they prepared to transform in dust the legions castra but Mucius opposed them the VI legion”
Also in Diocletianus times the dacians attacked and conquer some roman settlements ;
Iordanes wrote: “dacians destroyed o lot of castra and civitates ( strongholds? ) the were on empire territory”
Traianus Emperor impose to Decebal to destroy his war machines and fortifications .for this reason I think that those stuff were very important .


Dacian Element in Roman armies.

After the conquest of Dacia some of the contingents were repartized in military service trough the empire; Here is a list of the most wellknown :
Vexillatio Daciarum – cavalry
Vexillatio Dacorum Parthica
Ala I Ulpia Dacorum- formed by Traianus
All those are reminded in Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarium vol III

Ala I Dacorum – stationed in Noricum maybe identical with the previous one – Notitia Dignitatum

Cohors I Ulpia Dacorum – formed by Traianus
Cohors I Aelia Dacorum – formed by Hadrian and transferred in Britannia

Cohors II Augusta Dacorum Veterana Militaria
Cohors III Dacorum
Ala Mauret Tibiscensium in actual western extremity of Romania , maybe recruited form the ancient town of Tibiscus.

There are also sarmatian contingents like :
Ala Sarmatum / Cuneus Sarmatum or Ala VII Sarmatum known as recruited from Dacia province.


This post wants to be an start to a debate : should the dacians be in RTW as playable faction? I consider them the most civilized from the barbarian kingdoms and for this reason I think that should be in the game.Also they fit the timeframe of the game and they have major fights with romans , not speaking about the long conflicts with germans .Also it could be an spectacular and very challenging to play faction.But here is just the start of the debate and I would like to hear your opinions; please excuse the grammar and my English , I know inst the best

Hakonarson
06-24-2003, 22:08
IMO Dacians may be a minor faction - they were not a huge people/tribe - they lacked the geographical spread and numbers of say the Gauls, Germans or Spanish, their military prowess was limited to local actions, they never tried much in the way of conquest, and generally are an interesting but little sidebar to the Roman Empire.

Also of course their pinacle - the defeat of Roman expeditions in the 80's AD, and their subsequent defeat by Trajan in 102 and 106 are well outside the period of RTW.

Brutal DLX
06-25-2003, 09:52
From what Vlad just stated, it should be obvious that the Dacians ruled a strong realm, as far as I recall they also defeated a Parthian Invasion, that should give some estimation of their military power. So just because they didn't elect to extend their realm doesn't mean they should just be a minor faction.
Either way, they should be included, minor or major, as long as they are fully moddable.

Longshanks
06-25-2003, 11:56
Quote[/b] ]Caesar , after finished the gauls , wanted to start a campaign against them but his plans were cancelled by his assassination.

Julius Caesar also planned to launch a campaign against the Parthians to avenge Carrhae, but he was assassinated in Rome by political enemies before he could carry it out. Probably a good thing for both the Dacians and the Parthians. It bought both of them some time before they would be smashed by Rome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Vlad The Impaler
06-25-2003, 12:46
Quote[/b] ]IMO Dacians may be a minor faction - they were not a huge people/tribe - they lacked the geographical spread and numbers of say the Gauls, Germans or Spanish, their military prowess was limited to local actions, they never tried much in the way of conquest, and generally are an interesting but little sidebar to the Roman Empire.

Also of course their pinacle - the defeat of Roman expeditions in the 80's AD, and their subsequent defeat by Trajan in 102 and 106 are well outside the period of RTW.

Sorry bu I think u are a little wrong Hakonarson; at 44 BC Strabon wrote that dacians have an army of 200.000 ; I dont recall more than one similiar size armies of Gauls , Germans and Spaniards .And this fit the timeframe of the game.
Also i dont think that an kingdom that have in his bordes a territory that streches form Dnister to Slovakia and from Balkan Mountains ( Haemus ) to the unknown north could be called an small regional power at that times;

remember that in M:TW there are russian principalities; considering the time frame of the game and their historic achivements wasnt any reason for the to be in the game.But think with what u'll fill that part of the map?
And in what remarcable way the germans , spaniards and gauls tried an major offensive against mediteraneean world ? ( exceptin pillage expeditions ) .I heard about gaul troops in Asia but under roman command;
The fact that Dacia was conquered so late is a good reason for the presence of this faction in the game as playable one at least in an potential late era .remember that Traianus got 100.000 kg of gold and 300.000 kg of silver only for half conquered Dacia.could u give an example about such an welthy barbarian people at that time?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I think not.If the parthians will be in the game why not dacians? could be a big challenge to face high mountains with great fortresses and long plains with powerful cavalry
Also the flag and those mitical warrior monks could add flavour and charm to an extrem part of the map; Also the fact that dacians have great foretresses ( even citadels ) and war machines could be another reason for their presence in the game

Tempiic
06-25-2003, 13:10
Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ June 25 2003,12:56)][..]the Parthians. It bought both of them some time before they would be smashed by Rome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Umm... when did the Parthians got smashed by Rome?

shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 16:17
I'd like to see the Thracians be a playable faction.

The Dacians were descendants of a Thracian tribe (or that is the speculation).

Now the Thracians were absolutely huge in numbers, and the Greeks always lived in fear of their unification.

The Thracians would consist of the mountain tribe javelineers; the heavy infantry being units weilding the Rhomphia and having an oval shield and helmet; the excellent cavalry of the plains tribes (Ordrisii -- sp?) And even some infantry with the Gega, crooked club, that was designed to break spear heads.

The Dacians would fit in nicely as a fanatic unit, unarmored, falx-weilding unit sub-type within the Thracian host.

antek
06-25-2003, 21:19
I would just like to notice that the Dacians after the Empire split, had taken attempts to conquer Thesallonics (or what is the proper name?) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif and that they had a big fleet on the Adriatic (I din't read everything, so maybe that was mentioned http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ), and they kept on having unending fights with the Avars

Hakonarson
06-25-2003, 22:24
V.lad Strabo wrote many things - some of them even true. But since he never went to Dacia his "evidence" was hearsay.

The Gauls certainly put 80-100,000 men in the field inside and outside Alesia - those are proveable numbers that were actually fielded and do not rely upon the hearsay of a single historian.

German tribes numbered more than 200,000, as did Spanish ones - jsut go count the number of fighting men actually fielded by their armies year by year - or used by generals like Sertorius (in Spain) or Civilis in Germany in 69AD, add in the known numbers of tribes .....heck the Cimbri and Teutones and their Gallic allies fielded 100,000 vs Marius, while Caesar gives the Batavians 100,000 fighters alone.

You also missed my point that Dacia should be in as a minor faction - which is exactly what it was - but that is all. Certainly there are Russian principalities in MTW - but most of them do not rate a faction of their own, so what's your point?

Indeed virtually every province in MTW had a "faction" of its own at one time or another - in many cases these are represented as rebels or forces in civil wars.

To say that Caesar was about to invade Dacia so therefore it must be playable is the same as saying that he invaded Britain so it must be too - and we also know that the Britons had over 200,000 warriors (Buodacea fielded 60-80,000 in a partial rebellion). But it's quite indefensible to insist that Britain be playable - it may be, but the game will not suffer much if it isn't.

Parthia was trounced by Rome in 39-38 BC when it invaded Syria, and Ctesiphon was burned by Trajan in 115-117 AD. Mark anthony's expedition in the 50's BC burned Ctesiphon too, but failed to bring any significant force to battle and retired in what can only be described as a bloody draw.

In between there was internecine warfare especially around Armenia.

Longshanks
06-26-2003, 07:46
Quote[/b] (Tempiic @ June 25 2003,07:10)]
Quote[/b] (Longshanks @ June 25 2003,12:56)][..]the Parthians. It bought both of them some time before they would be smashed by Rome. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Umm... when did the Parthians got smashed by Rome?
Rome never completely conquered the Parthians but they did beat them in several wars. There were many wars between the Parhians and Romans, some were won by Rome and some by Parthia. Ultimately though the edge goes to Rome. Rome during different periods successfully conquered territory from the Parthians, the Parthians however were never able to hold onto Roman territory. The Romans also captured the Parthian capital several times, while Parthian troops never stepped foot in Rome, except as captured slaves and gladiators.

The Parthians got smashed by Trajan in 115 A.D. Trajan objected to a client king placed on the throne of Armenia by the Parthians, so he ivaded Armenia in 114 A.D. and made it a Roman province. He then captured Mesopotamia which was Parthian territory, defeated the Parthians in battle, and sacked their capital city, Ctesiphon.

The Romans also enjoyed success against the Parthians during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. The Parthian King Vologases IV decared war on Rome and invaded Armenia. After some initial success the Parthians were counterattacked and pushed back out of Armenia. Roman troops pushed into Parthia proper and briefly occupied Ctesiphon. In the end it was an epidemic which brought peace between the two powers, when both sides lost scores of men to it. The Romans withdrew from Parthia, but they had been successful in defending their territory. They held onto Armenia, a clear defeat for the Parthians.

The got defeated again by Septimus Severus in 197 A.D. The Parthians had taken advantage of civil wars in Rome(several powerful generals were fighting for the throne), and invaded Armenia. Severus eventually won the throne in Rome, and turned his attention to the east. He recaptured Armenia, defeated the Parthians in battle, and the Parthian capital at Ctesiphon once again fell to Roman troops. According to some estimates, so much looted Parthian gold and silver was brought back to Rome by Severus that it staved off a European economic crisis by 3 or 4 decades

It was this defeat by Severus which ushered in the fall of the Parthian Empire. The Parthians were left impoverished, and had no hope of reclaiming lost territories from the Romans. Because of the economic situation, the Parthian Kings were often forced to make concessions with the sometimes volatile nobility, and client-kings ignored orders from the Parthian King. The Persians, who had long been vassals of Parthia, revolted. Ctesiphon fell to the Persians and the Parthian Empire ceased to exist, replaced by the Persian Sassanid dynasty.

JANOSIK007
06-26-2003, 18:33
Slavs would beat Dacians up with an ugly stick.

If they wanted to.

All Romans needed to do was to call Slavic tribes up make order with the Dacians.

JANOSIK007
06-26-2003, 18:43
Just lighten up. O.K.

More than half the things you read on the internet are figment of a sick imagination. If you really want to be an expert in history go take course at a respectful College.

That's what I'm going to do.

Don't believe everything you see on the Internet.

Lot of BS is spread thanks to these idiots.

That's all I have to say about arguing with internet as your only resource of info.

Vlad The Impaler
06-26-2003, 20:57
JANOSIK007 your attitude is childish.
the stuff that i wrote isnt from some internet site.i used as sources of inspiration History of Romania by Romanian Academy of Sciences , and various books writen by well known romanian and foreigner historians as:
Vasile Parvan , the best historian concerning the period on Dacian territory
Nicolae Densuianu , excellent on romanian military history
E.Higgins , Cambridge ,doctor in history
Mircea Eliade , the most known historian of religions , doctor in history at Chicago University and more other universities, about the dacian religion and the holy dacian warriors known as Ktisai
Also i wrote words of ancient historians mentioning their opera .As examples , Strabon , Dio Cassius , Iordanes , Tucidides.If u never heared about and u want to talk about hitoric period the covers RTW than for ur own good do it

i wrote the post myself compiling this sources.I know that are grammar problems , my english isnt the best but i think that it is readable.

About college degrees I have a masters degree in laws and one of my important works was the history of roman laws .
About the slavic tribes that u wrote there please notice that my ancestors on this land rise big citadels and fortresess , visible today ( cant deny the evidence of stones ) in the time when the best thing of slavic civilizational fashion was an simple HUT
And if u want to really learn history please spare a little time with some greek classical education and read Pitagora's Moral and Political Laws.There are thousands of references about dacian culture and civilization:) and a lot of quotes about their wisdom.

And now u listen : please try to ignore my posts i will not answer u again.i dont intend to work for the global community trying to explain to an brainwashed slavic ( probably russian )kid what happend in the past.

shingenmitch2
06-26-2003, 21:02
Please go back to school, you sound like you could use an education.

After your course is done you'll be able to come back and see that some people actually know what they are talking about...


BTW... check your time period (100 BC - 100 AD)...

Vlad The Impaler
06-26-2003, 23:10
Hakonarson your posts confused me a little.First of all the dacians are not a tribe ; the dacians are a confederetion of thracian tribes.They were the top of thracian tribes.In number they are not huge but certainly are big.The number of thracians is huge.In my opinion such an important civilization as the thracian should be in a game about Rome.
The thracian civilization was indeed huge and suffered a lot of cultural influence from the greeks and the greek also take some things from the trhacians ( Dyonisos cult and maybe - with a big question mark - Ares/Mars ).I think u cant deny the the number of thracians was huge and also u cant deny that the dacians were the top of this tribes.Herodot stated about thracians that they were the second in number after indians:rolleyes:
About the greatest period of the dacians , this is parallel with the period of Caesar in Rome so i dont see any problem of timeframe.When Caesar was in Galia the dacians rule a territory streched from actual Slovakia to Dnister and from Balkan Mountains ( Haemus ) to far north.U are questioning the number of soldiers given by Strabon but think with what u can rule such large territory?
Also dacians have big wars with Lysimach, one of the diadohs.They beat him 3-4 times and even take him prisoner in the valachian-danubian plain ( south-east of actual Romania ).That means that the macedonian phalanx was beaten in open ground.that should give u a little ideea about their old military power .Militaries succes of dacians werent at all isolated .
Also I dont understand in what way u think that dacians should be an minor faction.If this is in the way that danes , hungarians , poles or russians are in M:TW well i totally agree with u .

Hakonarson
06-27-2003, 01:39
From Pausanius's "History of Greece" which includes most of what we know about Lysimachus we have this:

Lysimachus made war against the neighboring peoples, first the Odrysae, then against Dromichaetes and the Getae. As he was engaging with men not lacking in experience of war and who outnumbered him heavily, he himself only escaped after facing extreme danger, while his son Agathocles, who was serving with him for the first time, was captured by the Getae. Later Lysimachus suffered other reverses in battle, and as he was seriously concerned about his son's capture, he made peace with Dromichaetes, surrendering to the Getic chieftain the part of his empire that lay beyond the Danube and giving him his daughter in marriage, largely under compulsion. There are some who say that it was not Agathocles but Lysimachus himself who was captured and saved when Agathocles made the pact with the Getic chieftain on his behalf.

It's no great shakes that the Phalanx could be defeated by tribesmen - Phillip had been defeated at least once himself, and obviously the Greek world didnt' manage to conquer absolutely everything it was a neighbour too lol

Thrace was considered a different "country" to Dacia - they may have been of similar stock - but then so were the Celt-Iberrians of Spain and the Irish - being both Gallic, yet they are quiet seperate peoples.

The Dacian confederation was NOT Thrace - and while it's peoples may have been Thracian in extraction, the two civilisations were sufficiently different to be remarked upon as being differnt by the peoples at the time.

My comment about Russians was in response to your comment about there being Russian Principalities in the game, and noting that they "get" to be a faction despite not having a huge influence on Europe at the time.

Suer I'd see Dacia/Thrace as being along those lines - alos siilar to Denmark, Aragon, Papal States, Italy and Sicily.

However probably with a very high revolt factor, since appart from the Dacians they were always too busy fighting each other to ever organise enough to conquer the world lol

Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 12:03
I envision Dacia and Thrace being countries like Poland and Hungary in MTW. In a campaign they could ally or one conquers the other and then has a lot of room for expanding northwards, thus they can become a powerful force to rival the Romans etc.
Generally, lots of people said a lot, but I'm more inclined to believe ancient records than opinions solely placed on some small archeological material finds upon which theories are formulated which then find their way as "proven facts" into text books. In that context, we can safely mention Schliemann taking his Homer literally while the rest of the scientists at that time laughed at him. In the end, he had the last laugh.

Vlad The Impaler
06-27-2003, 16:34
Hakonarson fure sure the dacians were confederate thracian tribes thats no doubt.They are diffrent in many matters comparing with the rest of thracian tribes? yes that is sure.they include some significant celtic and germanic tribes in their confederation? sure .
I am talkin here about peoples not about countries , this is the diffrence .


Quote[/b] ]Thrace was considered a different "country" to Dacia

BrutalDLX excellent point

Quote[/b] ]Schliemann taking his Homer literally while the rest of the scientists at that time laughed at him. In the end, he had the last laugh.

Nowake
06-28-2003, 05:47
Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ June 27 2003,03:39)]From Pausanius's "History of Greece" which includes most of what we know about Lysimachus we have this:

Lysimachus made war against the neighboring peoples, first the Odrysae, then against Dromichaetes and the Getae. As he was engaging with men not lacking in experience of war and who outnumbered him heavily, he himself only escaped after facing extreme danger, while his son Agathocles, who was serving with him for the first time, was captured by the Getae. Later Lysimachus suffered other reverses in battle, and as he was seriously concerned about his son's capture, he made peace with Dromichaetes, surrendering to the Getic chieftain the part of his empire that lay beyond the Danube and giving him his daughter in marriage, largely under compulsion. There are some who say that it was not Agathocles but Lysimachus himself who was captured and saved when Agathocles made the pact with the Getic chieftain on his behalf.

It's no great shakes that the Phalanx could be defeated by tribesmen - Phillip had been defeated at least once himself, and obviously the Greek world didnt' manage to conquer absolutely everything it was a neighbour too lol

Thrace was considered a different "country" to Dacia - they may have been of similar stock - but then so were the Celt-Iberrians of Spain and the Irish - being both Gallic, yet they are quiet seperate peoples.

The Dacian confederation was NOT Thrace - and while it's peoples may have been Thracian in extraction, the two civilisations were sufficiently different to be remarked upon as being differnt by the peoples at the time.

My comment about Russians was in response to your comment about there being Russian Principalities in the game, and noting that they "get" to be a faction despite not having a huge influence on Europe at the time.

Suer I'd see Dacia/Thrace as being along those lines - alos siilar to Denmark, Aragon, Papal States, Italy and Sicily.

However probably with a very high revolt factor, since appart from the Dacians they were always too busy fighting each other to ever organise enough to conquer the world lol
Thrace began to be considered a different country only after the romans made the Haemus region a vassal kindom, and later, a province. Tacitus, in "Anals", mentions this process.