View Full Version : V2 upgrad limit for swords and missile
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-24-2003, 22:08
Hi all,
I am more than willing to give a try to a new 'rule'; a V2 cap on sword unit and missile unit to stop some 'odd' upgrade and prevent them from unbalancing the game too much in favor of swords.
I also throw missile units in there because of some possible abuses (like v4 handgunners...) partly linked to missile discount.
Other upgrade than valor are not capped.
No capped on spears cav and polearms (polearms being axe with AP + anti cav bonus). Axe with AP but no anticav are considered sword (and here goes the V4 Militia Sergeant... or V4 Ottoman Inf).
I think this might rebalance the RPS slightly, and also achieve what a few others have tried to do with lower fl amount...
What do you think about this?
Louis the Simurgh,
I would say its much easier to say max V2 for all units.
Current florin levels have 2 problems: spears are weak versus heavily upgraded swords and you can buy loads of heavy cavalry.
Playing at 5k solves the 2 problems but some people might want more morale..that can be solved by saying all units has to be valour 1-3 (whatever people likes) We tried that some time ago (mostly V3 games) and it worked nicely.
But its different and not what people are used to so its difficult to make that as a standard and I have pretty much given up on trying new things with VI...my experience is that its easier to convince people to dl and try a mod than playing with new fancy rules with the current game.
Lots of people have to agree on new rules and maybe use it in tournaments before its accepted..if it ever will be accepted.
CBR
Who abuse hangunners? They are elite swordmen. Of course you have heard of the Musketeers? They are French Royal Guards and despite the fact that they can fire muskettes, they are elite swordmen.
In the game, the costs of their gun is only 70 bucks. Compare to the Futuwa, Janissary Infantry, etc. who has 200 bucks discount for their bows, I would say handgunnes are penalized.
Leave my handgunners alone. They are the compensation for playing late without pikes or cannons.
Now, limitting the swords units to Val2 you automatically favor the CMAA, which, at val2 has honor8. Some factions doesn't have CMAA. The game is even more unbalanced with your idea than anything else.
I actually play my CMAA at val2 and they even eats spears at higher val. Now you must say val2 without any weapon upgrade to make them weak enough.
Now, people have been complaining about strong cav. Limitting the foot troops to val2 would mean Cav will rule more. Relation between Cav and Spears stay the same, but Swords and axes are weaken, meaning Cav is even more lethal.
Brief, I don't like your val2 idea.
Annie
Skomatth
06-24-2003, 23:36
Well the more you can upgrade units the more they get unbalanced. However with current gamestate they were balanced to get upgraded. so you get an imperfect system. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 00:01
Musketters came a little bit later An... And I don't think handgunners status is elite.
You have a valid point saying that not all factions have CMAA; Almo and Byz are likely to suffer a lot from this kind of change. I think Egypt and Turk can live with it pretty well.
CMAA at V2 win vs spears, and that's the way it is supposed to be; I would be concerned if the opposite happened.
But today, I see many games with no spears at all, a lot of swords, some polearms , some cav and missile and that's it.
At v4, many swords can handle a mild cav charge (ok not the one line sweep kind of charge...) quite well, because they don't break fast, and can somehow make it in h2h vs cav, once the charge is broken.
In other word, spears get trashed too fast by swords. Cav get in trouble because first it goes against ennemy cav, and surviving cav got to fight against high morale sword which can handle those effectively.
I am not sure I agree with the cav is too strong part An.
Sorry to stop here, but I got some cooking underway and guests coming in half an hour,
Cya later,
Louis the Simurgh,
gah, that would mean hibryd uinits like Futuwas and JI would be useless.. perhaps a salary cap re unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif like 1200
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 18:00
Heya Louis,
It's such a multifaceted problem, im not sure a v2 limit is the answer... but it might be
It is that weird dynamic between... needing to get troops morale upto 8-10 and then the cost of doing so. That is why not all troops are v4, some hit m10 at v1 or v2, and then the $ get spent else where... but then there are instances where morale has is only part of the reason to go to v4 -- because some troops at v4 become super-killers and can get to v4 cheaply enough to make it worthwhile. I think one big prob is the "discount" on ranged troops. The discount would be fine if it worked on archer-exclusive units didn't allow for such pumping-up of archer/fighters. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
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my guess is that if we set valor to 2 -- we are either pumping up cavalry (becuase inf. morale overall goes down) which was a complaint earlier that it was too strong, or forcing all to start buying elite troops that hit m10 at v2.
So, in other words, I have no idea, but we could play-test it and see how it goes
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 18:17
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Mitch,
You raise an interesting question. If we top sword at v2, I wonder where the extra money will be spent... Cav? Or spears, polearm?
If we end up buying CMAA v2, FMAAv2 or Feudal Knight, ie elite sword unit to get a decent moral, I think it's pretty good. I don't have an issue with that. And An was right to point that out that it will be troublesome for a couple of factions.
Not sure the range discount is overall a problem... There are a few exceptions (look at arquebus v4... and give me a 5k late game).
Louis the Simurgh,
Whoa I have not even noticed this thread http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif My only excuse that I was away in june for a month http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
Anyway I support the max v2 for swords and axe units (most have good morale even at v2) but not for the hybrid units. First, hybrid units are not much of a problem as yet IMHO. Second hybrid units are fun to play with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I will host such games soon, stay tuned
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-10-2003, 18:20
Yes Hybrid are fun to play with... But I strongly suggest you limit them to v2 too.... V4 JI are likely walk throught v2 whatever sword... And a v2 JI or futu is IMO still very playable.
True, it might get tough for Otto Inf / Bulg, etc....
Well, to be tested and we'll see http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Now, how much fl do you want to play? Where do you think the extra fl will go? Cavalry?
Louis,
I want to play at 15k. The idea is that one have to have enough florins to buy good spears (v3 chiv.serg, v3 armouredsp. etc.).
Yes, v4 JI and v4w1 Ottomans might be a problem. But on the other hand I expect v2w1 or even v2w2 CMAA, so I am not very concerned about "overpowered" hybrid units.
Extra florins, hm, I dont think that there will be too much extra florins. A v2w2 CMAA is costlier than a v3 and most of the good spears (v3 chiv.serg, v3 armouredsp. etc.) are costlier than a v3 FMAA, so there wont be extra florins neither for cavs nor for archers. In other words I expect the composition of the infantry to be different, perhaps more spears and more hybrid units but roughly the same cavs and ranged.
CeltiberoMordred
10-10-2003, 18:50
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Oct. 10 2003,12:20)]Now, how much fl do you want to play? Where do you think the extra fl will go? Cavalry?
Louis,
- 7k. Playing 7k games, u hardly can raise swords more than v2. The only units that can be upgraded considerabily are the hybrids, but i dont consider this a thread. Arquebusiers, Futtuwas, Handgunners, etc, lose vs MAA at the same florin value.
- If the standard remains in 15k, then the florins will go to the polearms: Billmen v3, Chivalric foot knights, Halbendiers v3, etc, will rule the battlefield. You have found the next superunit.
Quote[/b] (Celtibero Mordred @ Oct. 10 2003,12:50)]
- If the standard remains in 15k, then the florins will go to the polearms: Billmen v3, Chivalric foot knights, Halbendiers v3, etc, will rule the battlefield. You have found the next superunit.
Good point Mordred, but I dont think that v3 polearms would be uberunits. V3 polearms costlier (around 1450+ IIRC) than the usual sword/axe units (around 1200+) and in most cases costlier than a good spear (around 1200 too). So, there is a trade-off. Of course, it is possible to field an army like: 4 v2 CMAA, 4 v3 billmen, rest cavs and ranged. Is this an uber combo? Hm, dont know, it looks fine for me.
ElmarkOFear
10-10-2003, 20:21
...
CeltiberoMordred
10-10-2003, 23:34
Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Oct. 10 2003,13:43)]Good point Mordred, but I dont think that v3 polearms would be uberunits. V3 polearms costlier (around 1450+ IIRC) than the usual sword/axe units (around 1200+) and in most cases costlier than a good spear (around 1200 too). So, there is a trade-off. Of course, it is possible to field an army like: 4 v2 CMAA, 4 v3 billmen, rest cavs and ranged. Is this an uber combo? Hm, dont know, it looks fine for me.
We usually can see in most of MP games (15k) from 6 to 8 swords, and feudal man at arms v4 seem to be one of the favourites: costs 1461 each.
People also add from 2 to 4 chivalric man at arms v3 (1228 fl.) or militia sergeants v4 (1256 fl). I don't think theres a trade-off since you can purchase billmens v3 for 1474 fl.
The old 4v4 fmaa + 4v3 cmaa army can become perfectly in a 4 billmen v3 + 2 halb v3 + 2 cmaa v2 if you restrict swords to v2 for the same price. This can be even more powerful due their anticav capability, and their higher valor let them defeat swords. Polearms will become unbeatable unless you face them with others polearms.
MizuKokami
10-16-2003, 03:15
i still believe that the problems that come about creating imbalance are not a matter of how much valor a unit has or doesn't have. the problems of imbalance are created by some units that are rediculously cheap to upgrade, while others are rediculously expensive. questions....how much does it cost to make a v4 byz inf?....how much does it cost to make a v2 chiv foot knight?....and which one wins in battle?
v4 Byz inf = 1671, 14 combat points, 100 men
v2 chiv foot knight = 1589, 14 combat points +1 vs Byz inf, 40 men,
They are nearly in combat points, but Byz inf at 100 men wins easily.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-16-2003, 14:45
Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Oct. 16 2003,08:00)]v4 Byz inf = 1671, 14 combat points, 100 men
v2 chiv foot knight = 1589, 14 combat points +1 vs Byz inf, 40 men,
They are nearly in combat points, but Byz inf at 100 men wins easily.
But also different morale and different purposes...
A v0 chiv foot knight can be effective if properly used. Why do you need a v2 upgrade for?
Louis,
MizuKokami
10-16-2003, 16:53
yuuki, was that the price prepatch, or price now? has it changed?
louis, what would you suggest i upgade? i'm not very good with most types of units, and have a great weakness fighting cav. never seemed to get the hang of them. so i like to have units that hurt cav. in the shogun days, i was a spearman, who relied mostly on them to hold the front line, with shock troops to bring home the bacon. yari cav was my cav of choice, as they were easiest to use for me. i didn't use them as cav so much, as i used them as mobile spears. with the onvent of mtw, infantry units are no longer the backbone of the army, cav replaceing it with rediculously huge power, with spearmen and the like takeing a backseat. we can attribute this to all the posts hoping, wishing, and outright screaming for powerful cav. i agree for the most part that cav should be powerful. but with any unit, it should suffer from inherant weaknesses of their own. the power of cav rests in it's charge, and it's mobility. if it loses those two things, it should die quickly, and completely. spears are the pawns of the chessboard, you don't think much of them on the way to battle, but they hold critical positions on the battle field. get them behind enemy lines so as not to face the enemy head to head, you cut off avenues of retreat, and lower enemy morale so much as they should seem to be more then what they are. their weakness, they have to be protected. leave them alone too long, and you will lose.
but enough chess analogies, back to the point. the upgrade system, as it stands, makes all these inherant strengths and weaknesses mote. you can build yourself a peasant type unit that can kick the behinds of elite units. this should never happen. the purpose of the upgrade system should be to get your peasant type units so they don't run too fast, not so they become the power of an army.
That does sound like at least something different, so a whole different experience making it at least okay to take spears and not automatically lose because of it. The bad part comes in the policing. Yeah the solution is to only play with people you trust, no problem there. But if I want to sign on and be playing a game within 10 minutes, will it happen? Slim chance.
I would definitely give that a try if I was in game with people I knew wouldn't try to sneak something past me, otherwise it wouldn't work out well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
ElmarkOFear
10-16-2003, 17:45
..
Elmo, tell us just one thing after this long rant: do you like the v2 max rule or not? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Oh and relax, no one wants to take away your upgraded arqs and handgunners, at least not me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Ehhe, I wrote the replies way back when ...
Annie
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-16-2003, 19:01
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Oct. 16 2003,12:45)]Some may say the Turkish mostly missile army is strong, and it is, but only in the hands of a player who knows how to play it. It takes skill in play to win with this army. I applaud the players who use it well.
Turks missile army is a veiled sword army. Treat it in every way as a sword army.
Regarding handgunner... The question is, if we limit sword to v2, shall we also limit handgunners and turk hybrid (or any other hybrid) to v2?
Louis,
PS; yes that's an additional rule repressing creativity... OTOH, it may weaken the sword heavy army enough to let some room to other more 'creative' armies....
I agree. It would be fun to be able to take spears again. Sure people are saying "well then just do it". But if I took even 1 spear I would have to work much harder to shield myself from the 4 ms and 4 cmaa or fmaa I would probably face. I think doing something to limit the hybrid units would be good, as it is a dangerous army. I don't know what the right limit would be, it would almost have to be set on a unit by unit basis, that would just get annoying to try to remember though.
ElmarkOFear
10-17-2003, 00:04
..
Kokami,
byz inf was increased from 175 to 200
chiv, teutonic, hospitaller and knights santiago increased from 650 to 675
handgunners from 175 to 200
lancers from 800 to 850
I don't see anything else that got changed, but I might have missed something.
Quote[/b] (ElmarkOFear @ Oct. 16 2003,18:04)]V2 limit should be put on both swords AND cav, if you want to balance the game somewhat.
I agree. V2 Hobilars are killers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Don't take it personal Elmo, I just had to point that out. Pretty sure you were joking though, but I haven't been very smart lately. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
ElmarkOFear
10-17-2003, 03:52
..
ElmarkOFear
10-17-2003, 03:57
..
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
10-17-2003, 04:15
Either more cav heavy... or more people willing to bring some real anticav not just pumped up sword as is infantry.
Cav will be more powerfull. Will spears and polearms be strong enough to stop them? Very likely.
Louis,
MizuKokami
10-17-2003, 04:42
louis...btw, just so you know, i'm not against any host makeing any rules, as many of the rules people come up with create balanced games. i'm against the 'need' for these rules. my feeling is this....the game should be balanced without haveing to make rules, and without having to play at specific florins. the art of war is not cheesey, so therefore, battle tactics shouldn't be either.
It is time we ought to reconsider this matter. Last time this thread was handled, Louis had no proof of his ideas apart from being sensible. This time there is proof here (http://totalwars.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15627#15627)
When swords are on v3, they beat knights and spears. When they are on v2 however, they can beat spears but not knights. Knights can beat swords but not spears. And spears can beat knights but not swords. That i think was the paper rock scissors element everyone was searching in the multiplayer. Though one thing is that i agree with alrowan that if swords are capped to v2 then JI and Futuwwas, mongol warrior etc would be useless so maybe they should be capped at a certain amount of florins where CMAA cant be v3.
v2 cmaa at 722 florins is where the swords start to defeat the chiv knight. It seems to me that in general you should start to see some diminishing of that effect as you go under 16 * 722 = 11560 florins. Will that cripple the muslim factions which reply on sword/archer combo units too much? Maybe so in western Europe, but those factions are meant to excel in the desert.
Brutal DLX
10-29-2003, 11:45
I think this is a difficult matter, to generalise a v2 cap for all sword units. What about the old max 2 rule? Could it work? Let's say we treat FMAA and CMAA as one unit, that should reduce pure swords to max 4 selectable (2 FMAA/CMAA and 2 MS) and introduce the need to select more unit types?
Perhaps a new florin level would be required then too, but that will take care of itself after test matches...
Instead of doing that we can tell everyone to get max 4 swords, it would be easier. But the problem is thats still gonna make a CMAA v3 and it will beat both OFS and CK. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Brutal DLX
10-30-2003, 10:40
V3 CMAA should beat Order Foot. If you do the 4 max, you'll see 4 v3 CMAA quite often, that's why I suggested the 2 max rule.
Two v3 CMAA can be handled by cav or other troop types, you couldn't rush in with your sword phalanx anymore.
But anyway, it's just my opinion.
Dionysus9
10-30-2003, 20:44
Gah Bachus no like limits
Gah *smashes limits with 8 sword/8cav rush army*
Heheh, the problem with setting these types of arbitrary limits (using that term loosely since there is valid reasoning behind your ideas) is that only a small group of players ever adopts them. If you play within that small group of players you hone certain skills and lose others, because you are playing a different game from everyone else.
I'd rather just respond to the threats that are presented to me--in terms of balance, unit selection, and florin level--than try to standardize a certain type of "game" that I feel is "best"...
This game constantly evolves and there is always a lot of discussion on "how can we make rules to 'fix' what is wrong in the short term." But when, I ask you, when have any of these discussions resulted in any change? Not since MI/WE v1.03 was created.
... so I guess I'm being the honorary naysayer. I don't think any "2 max rules" will work. The "4 Max No Ashi" rule was largely an anomaly due to an extreme imbalance and we haven't really seen anything like that since.
So I guess I'm saying this conversation, although intellectually stimulating, is essentially going nowhere.
*ducks flying debris and rotten vegetables*
Quote[/b] (Dionysus9 @ Oct. 30 2003,13:44)]The "4 Max No Ashi" rule was largely an anomaly due to an extreme imbalance and we haven't really seen anything like that since.
That only seems so because that imbalance is placed over a whole group of vital units, not just a single unit.
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