View Full Version : An Analysis of Janissary Infantry
Greets All
I just saw soemthing I personally thought was somewhat interesting....JI being refereed to as being superior to CMAA at equal valor of 3 + 1 armor upgrade.
Just wanted some of your opinions on this. Personally I think that JI vs CMAA at equal valor of 3 will lose in a unit vs unit fight unless JI can reduce CMAA unit by about 5-10% (leaning 10) by missile fire before melee.
Indeed JI has bows they can use which gives them a better chance some may argue. Look at the stats comparison (Charge, Attack, Defence, Armor, morale) JI has one armor upgrade:
JI 1 7 6 4 10 for a combat value of 20.5
CMAA 3 7 6 4 10 for a combat value of 23
Ok the stats look similar except for charge benefit which CMAA can exploit and SBOW advantage which JI will NOT be able to exploit vs skilled players (max 2 volleys).
Thx for your comments.
PS thx Yas for that awesome tool http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
PPS according to Yas Tool, don't forget JI have NO shield bonus....while CMAA have +1 defence bonus from shield. (IIRC)
I agree with you that CMAA wwould beat JI, even with 3-4 volleys of arrows targeted at them before the hand to hand part, but still, their potential of shooting quickly is very useful when they are gathered together. For eg 10 JI/futuwwa 2 JHI and 4 cav is an army that shouldnt be to hard to beat. But it can be when its considered that 10 fast shooters are involved which release and reload very swiftly and can also fight. Imagine the army you face has 4 PAs. So that will leave him 12 units to fight in hand to hand, whereas the turkish army has 16. So what this shows is that you can easily double the enemy units because you have 4 units of close combatants free. That is when I think JI proves its worth, outnumbering. If one vs one, I'd say simply give you JI some diapers and say goodbye. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Cheers
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 13:54
Hi Selj --
If you were referring to my comment... u are taking it out of context. I'm not saying head-to-head in single up fight that the JI will beat the CMAA. I'm saying that during the fluid action and many different situations of a battle, the JI is a much better unit.
CMAA can only do 1 thing fight H2H.
JI can ALMOST fight as well (after that charge bonus disappears they are EXACTLY Attk 7, Def 6.), but it can also act like a full blown archer -- the JI can kill units without risking itself, the CMAA can't do that. The JI can put the enemy into situations where they must charge or be shot and thus incur penalties from getting tired first and lose men during movement.
Also, JI will receive (AFAIK) no penalty when fighting anti-armor units, while some units (like Militia Sgts.) get an anti-armor bonus when fighting CMAA -- they would not get that bonus vs. the JI.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 14:34
A head to head match between JI and CMAA is just going to give a bloody mess and two depleted units. I don't know who win, but the winner is not going to be in a good shape.
Comparing JIv3a1 with CMAAv3... Why not, but you can also have some other nasty JI upgrades, v4, v2w3 (and now who get a charge bonus advantage?), etc... and those upgrades, given the bow discount are somehow 'more flexible' than CMAA upgrade.
Regarding Turk units and Turk behavior on the field;
1/ beside the sword / archer, Turks don't have real good sword units. Somehow those sword archer need to be able to compete with western sword units to make the game interesting. If CMAA, MS, etc were winning easily vs JI/ futtu, then to play Turks would be pretty hopeless. Right now, if western sword meet turkish hybrid, it's 50/50. So I am fine with it.
2/ on the field, JI SBOW can be good.. or useless.
In 1v1, having 10 hybrid can be very nasty vs a western army; once you run out of ammo (shotting ennemy sword), charge, and here you go.
In 4v4, it's somehow tougher, you got to play with your team, so fast attack/shoot/rush is a more difficult option; it means going out of line with your team and possibly being countered by a double. It's doable, but that means the Turk player commits his team to his strategy, and that might not be the best for the team overall.
Sooo.... If you don't fast attack / shoot / rush, it's back to a traditionnal missile duel; I personnaly try to avoid those, looking for a good position to nullify pav xbow advantage in those situations. Mo, seems to favor another solution which is to take some x bow for duel, and when the ennemy pav xbow start to be worn out, to start engaging with other sbow units. With Mo (Mo correct me if i am wrong)approach, you somehow sacrifice 4 slots to make good use of JI Sbow and help your allies in miss duel. With my approach, if I can't find a good position on the map, or deter ennemy pav xbow (ghazy/light cav charge), I am in potential trouble; I usually go the fast attack / shoot/ rush path in those cases and pray for bad ennemy coordination...
That being said, there are some positions in which SBOW is very usefull; I am alway happy to have some missile in end games, when 5 half strenght units face each other, that can make a huge difference. True also, that keeping a couple of reserve hybrid to give a -2 morale to whoever can be helpful once the melee had started... But western army shall do the same (actually better) with their pav x bow.
Louis the Simurgh,
t1master
06-25-2003, 14:38
mitch did well kicking my poor ji around last nite... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
i've only been successful with them when i'm using them to flank swords that are already engaged. i don't think they'd beat cmaa in a one on one fight, but with other units involved, and peppering the catolicos, they stand a fair chance of being successful. it's also hard to get enough ji upgraded to valor 3 a1, especially if you want to bring the heavies, which are a more effective unit all around, imo.
edit: louis makes some good points about the advantage/disadvantage imposed on your teammates with the turks. i tend to get doubled alot, cause i have to move out on a limb, but the turks are fast and if you can march well, which i can't yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif , you can have a versitile army. sometimes i can hold off two armies till my allies get there, sometimes not.
Just a quick w000000t
Nice posts keep em coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Mitch your comment is the inspiration for this topic. I do realise that you mean JI as part of a larger picture are better than CMAA. Basically I wanted some more takes on this view, and if possible have a scientific discussion.
I hope to have some more time to post my own thoughts tonight.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 16:02
Hi Louis,
Yep that is mo tactic, tho he only use 2-3 slots for xbows -- which are cheap so he got cash to spend on those other 13-14.
The reason JI V3 A1 compared to V3 cmaa is cause their cost is nearly identical, so the comparison is fair. But, yes, V4+++ JI are evil.
One other thought about the JI, at the end of a game after the survivors regroup and all are tired, say i got 3 cmaa that are now at 20 an u got 3 JI at 20, but with some arrows left... would you have advantage? Who can skirmish if they choose and pepper hell outta me? GAH
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
T1, i only kicked my own butt that game... it was just bad. DOH
Louis,
I just looked at the Turks in high era, and they don't have xbows. Unless I'm mistaken, Mo can't be using that xbow strategy with Turks.
The thing to understand is that the normal rock, paper, scissors doesn't apply to pumped hybrids like JI since they become a shock unit with a bow. Charging at hybrids early on seems to play into their strength while charging with hybrids negates their ability to shoot. The disadvantage of the pumped hybrid is getting shot up and fatigued in the shootout by cheaper xbows while the cmaa sits back remaining fresh and at full strength. So, it makes sense to keep the hybrid back and use some cheaper unit in the initial shootout. In general, the ability to pump ranged units for less cost causes the "cav beats ranged" paradigm to break down, although, I persist in trying to play as though cav beats ranged, and you can have some success with it.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 17:39
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ June 25 2003,08:34)]That being said, there are some positions in which SBOW is very usefull; I am alway happy to have some missile in end games, when 5 half strenght units face each other, that can make a huge difference.
Not that I enjoy quoting mysef that much but...
Sure, Mitch, you are right, end game is a good occasion for SBOW to shine. At this point pav xbow are either gone or too tired to be effective. JI are usually not that tired (thanks to light armor), so it's usually a very enjoyable situation. Turco horse are even better, but that's another topic...
T1, JHI can be played at v0a0w0, not a lot of money there, as long as you keep them focus on anticav duty. But they don't stand a chance vs real sword unit, and among them, against properly upgraded JI. Always fun to get JI vs JHI and see the JI winning, which is IMO completly normal. JHI are too expensive for upgrade.
I routineley give them v1, but that's because I usually send them on tough duty far away from main line. If i give them v0, I got more money to spend on JI, and the next thing you know; Mitch and CBR will just double me on sight http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif . http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 17:42
Hi Yuuk,
hehe... it also breaks down the H2H fighter beats ranged paradigm http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I guess I'm mixed up, but I would swear I was just in a High game w/ mo and he had xbows and Turks... I guess I check things when I get home to comp. Maybe he had Alamos and turk colors...
-----------
Gah, missed that part Louis... I gotta read more carefully
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 18:07
I got logfiles with xbow for turks in high....
Cav still beat hybrid sword archer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif At least as well as they beat normal sword. Don't say 'ranged' units when speaking of JI. They are not. It's sword with a bow. And Turks don't have any real pure sword.
How to use this bow, whereas Turks don't have pav to win missile duel is one of the questions a Turk player must face.
There are some turnarounds, but those turnarounds tend to make life more exciting/ difficult for Turks in the early stage of the duel than just setting the pav, shoot and skirmish around to get rid of ennemy pav (which can be somehow tough I admit).
In some case (heavy armored cath army, with nobody with armor under 5), it's not even worth trying to shoot, SBOW won't do scratch.
Louis the Simurgh,
t1master
06-25-2003, 18:28
i think the turks field just plain xbows in high, not the pavs though.
i tend to take j. archers for the upfront ranged units, and give them some armor upgrades and let them act as xbow sponges, plus they get outta the way of cav pretty quickly and let yer spears and heavies onto charging cav flanks.
the turks are very difficult to play with, but more fun imo, and i feel like i've accomplished more when i happen to win, usually cause my teammates have helped me out. but even if the turks get doubled, as long as you can hold off till hep arrives, you've allowed your teammates to move into position to flank, hopefully. i get bored with pav duels. and enjoy the sense of excitement the turk units provide. they seem to do better on offense though.
OMG When I finally get my PC at home running I will have a lot of catching up to do in this thread......
*Swarzy voice* "I'll be back."
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:04
ummm... a man with a bow isn't a range unit? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I see what ur getting at, they aren't dedicated ranged troops with no h2h capability... but I believe in historical cases they were (like LB men) archers first, swordsman second -- they weren't outfitted or expected to stand up against the heavy foot soldier. They were there to shoot (as it took much training to master a bow -- far less training for xbows) and had the capacity to fight H2H if they had too.
So my take is that they should be nearly as good as European archers (or better) in the missle fight, and should kick most (if not all) European ranged troops asses in the H2H fight.... BUT lose soundly in H2H with Euro heavy infantry... as would be the case historically. Knights (tho few in number) were THAT good.
----------------
It is correct that Turks have no pure sword (except maybe the JHI -- okay polearm) because they were not a "heavy" armies perse, but skirmisher/harrassers as learned from their fore-fathers of the Eurasian steppe.
Loius,
Ok I missed those xbows for Turks in high. If turks have xbows, they are better off in high era than I thought. The pav xbow is slower, so that's a disadvantage for it, but you're right that it's very inefficient to shoot at pav or any very heavyily armored unit with archers. Also, I'm thinking of cav vs normal ranged when I say the cav has a hard time. For example, v0 xbows don't break very easily to a cav charge. The xbow should be flattened. Well, you can do it using the sideswipe bug.
Quote[/b] (t1master @ June 25 2003,14:28)]the turks are very difficult to play with, but more fun imo, and i feel like i've accomplished more when i happen to win, usually cause my teammates have helped me out. but even if the turks get doubled, as long as you can hold off till hep arrives, you've allowed your teammates to move into position to flank, hopefully. i get bored with pav duels. and enjoy the sense of excitement the turk units provide. they seem to do better on offense though.
Thats the translation of my feelings to turks. Turks are hard to control because most of the units you have are worse than their pairs on the enemy, but if you can pull off a great manouver like flanking them with your superior number of H2H fighters, you own the day. The thing is you really do get your JI cut down by the enemy xbows, pavs or whatsoever because of their light armour, so I think next time I play I will try that janissary achers bait mentioned. Turks can be a good army when they are spread, because it is hard to engage every one of them at the same time, which , as a chain reaction causes the defenders to be cut down by the spread out troops with arrows. Turks offer great diversity, and I recall that increasing the amount of cavalry to 6(2 light and 4 heavy) does a great job, especially when you consider that Im a player that doesnt know how to battle without cavalry. If you want something different I offer turks.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 19:43
Hummm.... Mitch, may I second guess CA a second?
I think that Janissary Infantry are named Infantry cause they are foot soldier / sword first and archer second.
Janissary Archer are the ones which are like longbow for English. Bows first and sword second.
I won't go into historical consideration, but I think CA made the distinction on purpose and that JI are intended to be sword first.
Yuuki,
I completly agree. It's diheartening to see those pav xbow, or any other missile like those taking minimal loss against cav charge. Light cav can't scratch those due mainly to the high defense pav ends up having when boosted properly. It's to the point that putting pav on hold / hold is a very valid solution agains light cav raid.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:43
Sideswipe BUG???
Thats a FEATURE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Now where the hell did my Lancers get to...
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:44
Doh so close...
please indulge me
499
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:45
500
----
HAHA ... take that, Louis
new smurfs gettiing same icon as poster from years before... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 19:45
Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ June 25 2003,13:04)]ummm... a man with a bow isn't a range unit? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
I gonna play them with fire off now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 19:47
Hey Mitch, you can also put something on top of your avatar now like;
"Sideswip feature king"
"I spam the last two one"
"A man with a bow is not a ranged unit"
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:47
Oh, so then u just get Turkish CMAA... such a sacrifice... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 19:50
How am I going to win missile duel now with fire off? Oh wait... I never won a missile duel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 19:54
U like the title? Bwahahahaaah...
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 19:59
20 something to go and I become Papasmurf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Now, Sinan is going to very disappointed, we got a nice topic completly gone OT http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Sorry Sinan, work has been boring today Next contribution will be better hopefully
Louis the Simurgh aka smurfy
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif mitch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 20:58
Hi Annie
--------------
Louis
"I won't go into historical consideration, but I think CA made the distinction on purpose and that JI are intended to be sword first."
Well, if it is about what CA designed then they didn't put either second... they seem to be as good archers as any and fight amongst the #1 tier sword infantry... and that the real issue. If they had even FMAA stats (morale) for H2H things would begin to make more sense.
If they get bows and have light armor, then they shouldn't be able to duke it out with the heaviest infantry around.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-25-2003, 21:08
I would not go as far as saying as JI are good archer as any... SBOW is rather crappy when LB, x bow and pav xbow are around. Better than MTLB; but as a benchmark, MTLB says it all.... And when your JI is your sword, you don't want to use them as archer unless you are in specific set of circumstances.
JI and other hybrids don't win miss duel in high, so for me they are not as good as any (any being pav xbow). Or, when they do (due to being fast to shoot, and many, like 10 of them), then they lose a big chunk of their h2h ability and become less good than CMAA.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-25-2003, 21:25
Ah the circle continues http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I wasn't considering xbows as part of archers, and LBs are the very best archers. But of all the others (and their are lots), JI seem just as good. Thus they are a full-fledged archer unit.
To say that in a range duel they will lose some men and thus have trouble w/ cmaa is not quite fair (you can hold them back if u like). But you get the choice to use them either way equally good and you are doing damage as a range weapon.
I have donned my Turkish cap and won't take it off until I get proficient with them.
t1master
06-25-2003, 21:41
Quote[/b] ]I have donned my Turkish cap and won't take it off until I get proficient with them
agreed. since they took my gallows away from the english, the turks have become my new favorite.
thanks all for some good ideas about using the turks. hope to see you soon in game. you'll recognize me by my cloud of smoke as we flee from the field. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I turn smoke off so that I can see you clear and shoot at you when you run away http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)
Annie
Brutal DLX
06-25-2003, 22:22
Well, if you plan to use your JI as main attacking force, then by god don't put them into that archery duel. Duh Buy turcoman foot for that, they are cheap and have good defense.
(When playing Turks I rely more on saracens with Ghazis supported by Armenian cavalry. That's an army with which you can put a lot of pressure on your opponnents. Add some JI and turcoman/ottomans and you got a well rounded army.)
Basically I think JI are a good sword unit and they fight adequately, I don't expect them to beat CMAA all by themselves, it rarely happens that units fight all alone once the battle has been joined.
SpiderFromMars
06-26-2003, 02:43
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ June 25 2003,16:22)]When playing Turks I rely more on saracens with Ghazis supported by Armenian cavalry. That's an army with which you can put a lot of pressure on your opponnents. Add some JI and turcoman/ottomans and you got a well rounded army.
Not the Saracen Inf, please *The haunting tune of the rout bugle plays* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
JI ---> Utility unit extraordinaire, never leave Rum without them.
Me, I'd take 4 JI over 4 CMAA any day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Psttt annie... you think its a good idea to start recruiting some more avid turk players?
Psttt, Tempi, should we start some charm offensive?
Annie
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-26-2003, 17:41
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Run guys run it's not too late for you
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis, [FF]Simurgh,
Better wait till uni gets to VI i think.... makes 4 of us then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
ErikJansen
06-27-2003, 01:50
Did anyone mention the Turks? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No better place than the Nest then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Div Hunter
06-27-2003, 02:00
Gah Turks Gah
Gah can't type Gah
note to self stop typing gah...
t1master
06-27-2003, 02:16
i think the horde should be in the high era too...it would be fun to face off those two armies.
Quote[/b] (ErikJansen @ June 27 2003,02:50)]Did anyone mention the Turks? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
No better place than the Nest then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
or it must be FF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ June 25 2003,18:22)](When playing Turks I rely more on saracens with Ghazis supported by Armenian cavalry. That's an army with which you can put a lot of pressure on your opponnents. Add some JI and turcoman/ottomans and you got a well rounded army.)
Ideal turkish attack army for me.
2 Khwarazmian cav Val 3
3 Armenian heavies val 3
3 Janissary archers val 1 wep 3 arm 3
5 Janissary infantry val 3 wep 3/ val 4
3 Ghazis val 4 (wep 3 if possible )
Ghazis are great but I never use saracens, what exactly do you use them for?( I am assuming this is an attack army)
Balamir how much does that army cost ? 30,000 florins ?
Please tell m8.
Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 12:44
Lol yeah. seems a bit expensive. for 15k i'd take it though lol
The saracens are for holding and for nailing any cav attacking your foot soldiers, until you can bring your JHI and cav to bear.
Yea I would take it...but how much does it cost ?
Hmm yeh its pretty expensive, I dont quite remember the amount but its around 25-30 k. Im not so familiar with 15ks, I hope to try em once I get VI but what you guys can do is
replace JI with futuwwas (which are a lot cheaper to upgrade, so you will still get a nice val 4 group)
Khwarazmian cav with armenians ( cav val is not so important, focus more on ghazis and JI since they are the important stuff.)
JA are not important, you might as well just give them 0val 0 wep and 3 arm since they are the ones that take the arrows from the xbows in the frontline, they are good for nothing else.
So I can lower the same mentality of this army to:
5 futuwwas (try to get as much upgrades)
3 armenian (get to something around val 3)
3 JA (just give em 3 armor)
3 Ghazis (very important at least give them val 4 or you can also give them val 3 and about 1-2 armor
2 units of any kind- its your choicee.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-27-2003, 13:38
Sounds rather fragile.
Why there is no anticav?
Why do you rely on ghazi for your sword component of your army instead of JI/Futu/Otto Turks in 15K? Ghazi takes missile fires way too easily and are not really controlable (I stop using v1 ghazi, cause they charge impetuously all the time), and I am not sure they compare favorably with JI...
Hey, Erik weren't you the one telling me your prince wanted you to play more catholic armies and less turks? Must be in a post around here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
To be free to play Turks whenever you feel like it, I know of a better place...
Louis, [FF] Simurgh,
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ June 27 2003,09:38)]Sounds rather fragile.
You may be right because I never really tested such an army, also I thought I did state that you need to make your futuwwas as good as you can since they are the core of your army. I said ghazis must be 4 val because they are useless otherwise. But of course, this army cant be very good because I really did not test it, but the other one at the high florin battles do achieve quite a lot.
Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 14:31
my friend, I didn't check it either, but I have doubts that this modified army can fit into the 15k range, at least if u want to upgrade your futuwwas to usefulness.
And that 30k army, dude, with 30k almost anybody can come up with great army setups when you have so much cash to spend. No offense though
Just a few things to comment on previous points.
I personally prefer JI/OI as the core of the army. The Ghazi are great but I tend to avoid taking them in a strong army. At 30k the enemy also will have a very strong army, but that is a great setup at 30k for Turks. With Turks I am overtly aggressive and entirely offensive. Indeed many times team mates have to consider the Turk players position as a deciding factor on the team strategy. I almost never use XBOWS neither do I engage in missile duels with XBOW or ARB armed opponents (or any other). My JI and OI have a purpose to reduce enemy combat units before swords meet. When hand to hand ensues, JI and OI lead the attack hopefully having dispensed some arrows from their quivers.. remember that OI also have armor piercing bonus. I disregard enemy long distance archers almost completely, AHC or Alans are defintely the choice there. When I do take JA they are valored and upgraded to attack when needed. For me playing Turkish in MTW is similar to the Kendo (Japanese sword fencing) way...every step is in the direction of the enemy..there are few defensive moves.
More to follow on JI ......
EDIT: Oh and my general's normally lead from the front and have about 50 - 50 chance of surviving the battle. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-27-2003, 15:43
Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ June 27 2003,08:42)]With Turks I am overtly aggressive and entirely offensive. Indeed many times team mates have to consider the Turk players position as a deciding factor on the team strategy. I almost never use XBOWS neither do I engage in missile duels with XBOW or ARB armed opponents (or any other).
That's the kind of commitment I try not to impose on my teammates.
It's either you adapt to your team, and things are getting more difficult and interesting for you as a player, or your team adapt to you.
In this second case, you take the risk of getting countered / doubled by a good team if you move forward, and you team fail to follow you. Honestly, in those case, I would blame the Turk player, and not the team.
If we go back to the 'adapt to your team' option, which might not be that offensive, then one needs to consider either a change in army selection, including Xbow (Mo sensei way of fighting), or a change in style, trying to make use of the battlefield to limit missile duel loss on your army (woods, hill, weird angle, harrasment, all that stuff) and limit the impact of turk specificity on team strategy (althought, sometimes you may have to go to a few extremen points to really do that... and it ends up impacting team strategy).
Then you got plenty of defensive moves http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .
Personnaly, I try to go the 'use of the battlefield' way. I dislike using XBOW, as it somehow makes me play like a catholic general, and well, who wants that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ?
Louis the Simurgh,
Yes I do try to fit in as much as possible, IF the team has any attack strategy. In which case i follow IF not then certainly I take the lead.
I have played, and do play, Catholic frequently. A good friend plays exclusively Turkish, if he can help it. In that case I ALWAYS remember that he has no arbs or xbows. As such I make sure that if he is taking fire or his time is right for attack, I do as all good allies do. I adapt my strategy to accomodate him, and support his attack with cav or even further I may attack first in order to give him a support role rather than pin cushion.
I played many games in which some do not realise what a situation the Turk player is in. Pity I just formatted my hard disk, I had an example of playing Turk. My two allies stayed out of the fight for most of the time I was hit by all 3 enemies cav and about 8-10 infantry from my main opponent. We were defending btw. At this point some help came from my right flank but was quickly dispersed. In the end the 3 enemies were left with 2 cav units and 2 armies before I was routed from the field. This to me is a good example that an aggressive Turk strategy can work well independantly, BUT with team support the Turk player can possibly be the grunt of the alliance hitting where necessary.
Quote[/b] ]In 4v4, it's somehow tougher, you got to play with your team, so fast attack/shoot/rush is a more difficult option; it means going out of line with your team and possibly being countered by a double. It's doable, but that means the Turk player commits his team to his strategy, and that might not be the best for the team overall.
This does hold true if the team does not adapt or does not support the Turk player. It means going out of line when the rest of the team is Catholic and not willing to make a trade of protecting some of their welfare for some protection of yours.
Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 16:28
That's all true, but seriously, if I'd be playing such a turk army variant and would be in that situation, while noticing at the same time my allies aren't realising this, I would request help via team chat. Allies who don't assist when they get such an request and have time to take a look for themselvers to estimate the seriousness of that request, can't be called allies.
A team just can't allow a team member to get doubled without doing anything about it.
It was ok, each unit performed pretty well. I was lucky to get 4 Feudal Knights clumped up and attacked by 2 JHI, supported by AHC. Only problem was that the enemy cried help and this attracted his 2 allies cav. In the end we won anyway since one army was destroyed (down to 40 men) the other 2 lost all their cav, bar 2 units. It was an exceptional game.
Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 16:58
I guess you had a lot of luck and skill then Personally I find the "let's sacrifice one ally and let them get tired while we rest and then rush in with fresh forces" tactic very unhonorable, unless it had been discussed and agreed upon during the planning stage.
Quote[/b] (Brutal DLX @ June 27 2003,10:31)]And that 30k army, dude, with 30k almost anybody can come up with great army setups when you have so much cash to spend. No offense though
Mate I didnt say it was a great setup, I said it could achieve a lot. I think you are underestimating 30k a bit. As you said, on 30k almost anybody can come with a great setup. Shouldnt that make winning harder in your opinion too? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Brutal DLX
06-27-2003, 17:22
Good point, but with a fault. Both get 30k, so the difficulty remains about the same, while battles take longer. At 15k you really have to "reach" with some army setups to do well in battle. It's more of an achievement to me to win with a worse 15k army against a better equipped one. Morale becomes important earlier in the fight at 15k compared to 30k games. At 30k you'll be maxed on morale so they stand and fight. Not much strategy once the battle is joined...
Okay okay, I will fight more 15k's from now on if that makes you happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif I dont think any type of florins is easier or harder to beat because the equal conditions apply to the enemy too, but not much of an argument. Anyway, we got this thing enough off topic now where were we?
..um yeh JI is a great unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
I can have so much to write to this thread, but right now I don't have much time, I'll write later, but I'd like to mention one thing though that I saw was wrong in the base of this discussion.(sorry if someoneelse has already mentioned it, I couldn't read the whole thread).
Sinan m8, it is normal that cmaa v3 will beat JI v3a1 in h2h, you got the stats for CMAA wrong there. The stats for v3 CMAA are 3 7 7 5 10, so it is normal, but vs JI v4 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
shingenmitch2
06-27-2003, 22:53
Kanuni,
Re-read the first 3-4 replies at the start of the entire discussion carefully and you will see the point of this entire thread. You missed it m8.
Thx for pointing that out dostum. That is what I thought too that v3a1 JI will lose against CMAA v3. Look forward to hearing your views when zou have time. Good Luck in your exams.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
OK, time for my 2 cents after reading all posts.
First of all I'd like to start with critisizing the calculation of combat rating. I don't know who found this calculation [att+def+(charge+armor+morale)/2] but it is completely wrong IMO to include "armor" for this calculation. Armor has no effect in h2h fight. It is only good for missile units to be less vulnerable to missile power. It may be discussed that it is also good for spear units to increase their defence, that will stand in hold formation to hold enemy infantry. But repeat: it has no effect in h2h clash of infantry. So it is wrong to consider this calculation for a JI/CMAA match, all that takes into account for this is charge, attack and defence, that's all. I'd like to also state that armor upgrades, unless used for missile units is not worth money because when you make armor upgrades you are also increasing the ap bonus of your opponent with ap units (you know it is very likely that you will face militia seargents). AP bonus is calculated as (opponent's armor-1)/2, so this means for every 1 armor you take you get +1 defence but give your opponent +0.5 ap attack bonus, so I NEVER take armor upgrades unless I'll use missile units to "shoot out only". It may be discussed that in reality armor may have a role in h2h, but in this game it simply DOES NOT
Quote[/b] ]Kanuni,
Re-read the first 3-4 replies at the start of the entire discussion carefully and you will see the point of this entire thread. You missed it m8.
I don't think I missed it. h2h comparison of JI and cmaa was a part of this thread, and I pointed out that Sinan's choice of JI (v3a1) would lose vs CMAA v3. I'd like to also add one more thing. "Ignoring JI's bows", IMO the match for CMAA v3 for JI is v4. Their att+def. values are the same but JI with more morale and CMAA with better charge. So when they clash CMAA will kill more at the beginning due to better charge, and "normally" the fight will go on as evenly matched and CMAA having only slightly more men remaining. But because JI has +2 better morale they will reach routing point in about the same time. Now do not ignore JI's bows, assume that it will volley 2 shots (I think it can shoot 3 though) vs a skilled opponent. This way it is almost 100% that JI will win, and this way they will deserve the extra florins spent over CMAA v3.
Quote[/b] ]PPS according to Yas Tool, don't forget JI have NO shield bonus....while CMAA have +1 defence bonus from shield. (IIRC)
Sinan m8, shields do not give +1 def. bonus in h2h, shields are useful for defending vs arrows. It doesn't write anywhere that it does and I have done maybe more than 300 tests and saw that shields have no effect in a h2h fight of 2 infantry units. I'm thinking that maybe it does give +1 def. to units that stand in hold formation such as spears, but I am not sure, because I haven't tested it, I don't like using spears anyway.
Quote[/b] ]Also, JI will receive (AFAIK) no penalty when fighting anti-armor units, while some units (like Militia Sgts.) get an anti-armor bonus when fighting CMAA -- they would not get that bonus vs. the JI.
Wrong. They WILL suffer from ap bonus. As I mentioned earlier ap bonus is calculated as (opponent's armor-1)/2. So militia seargents will have +1 att bonus vs JI and +2 att bonus vs CMAA.
Quote[/b] ]Why not, but you can also have some other nasty JI upgrades, v4, v2w3 (and now who get a charge bonus advantage?), etc...
I agree about v4 but not about v2w3. In MTW 1.1 it may be somewhat logical to take v2w3 because of the valor gained in battles, maybe they have a chance to gain 1 valor and become v3. But in VI it is a complete waste of money IMO. v3w1 compared to v2w3 will be cheaper, will have +2 morale and they will have the same att+def value. And also I didn't understand what you meant by "and now who get a charge bonus advantage?". Charge value is constant and it doesn't change with valor upgrades or weapon upgrades. JI will still have 1 charge value at v0 and v4.
Quote[/b] ]2/ on the field, JI SBOW can be good.. or useless.
In 1v1, having 10 hybrid can be very nasty vs a western army; once you run out of ammo (shotting ennemy sword), charge, and here you go.
M8, no offense but there is NO WAY that you will run out of ammo with 10 hybrids vs a good player. He just won't stand and watch his units getting wasted by raining arrows, he'll immediately rush you instead http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .
Quote[/b] ]i think the turks field just plain xbows in high, not the pavs though.
Yep, the Turks do have plain x-bows, but not pavs.
Quote[/b] ]I see what ur getting at, they aren't dedicated ranged troops with no h2h capability... but I believe in historical cases they were (like LB men) archers first, swordsman second -- they weren't outfitted or expected to stand up against the heavy foot soldier. They were there to shoot (as it took much training to master a bow -- far less training for xbows) and had the capacity to fight H2H if they had too.
So my take is that they should be nearly as good as European archers (or better) in the missle fight, and should kick most (if not all) European ranged troops asses in the H2H fight.... BUT lose soundly in H2H with Euro heavy infantry... as would be the case historically. Knights (tho few in number) were THAT good.
----------------
It is correct that Turks have no pure sword (except maybe the JHI -- okay polearm) because they were not a "heavy" armies perse, but skirmisher/harrassers as learned from their fore-fathers of the Eurasian steppe.
This discussion between you and louis went on for sometime, but I think quoting only this will be enough. Mate, no offense but before commenting on historical accuracy, you need to know history lol, no offense though. Ottoman military in the past was a lot more different than catholic ones. While catholics usually recruited soldiers proffessioned in their own area (for example: archers, cavalry, swords etc...) the Turks' approach was somewhat closer to modern approach and they wanted to recruit multi functional soldiers. Just as todays infantry (trained to handle different kinds of weapons, vehicles etc...), the Turkish infantry was multi functional. Most of the time their main heavy infantry was also armed with bows, handguns etc... There was no thing as "infantry first, archers second etc...", they had to use both. The Turkish understanding of military those days said that a good soldier has to be able to use different weapons, has to be multi functional etc..., just as modern approach. So I think CA's approach was true for JI but not enough, Turks had many more multi purpose units, that was unique and characteristic to the Turks. Sinan has quite good knowledge about this, too, lol probably even more than me. So refer to him as well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif . And oh yes, after starting to recruit jannissarries the Turkish armies started to be "heavy" as well. I can tell you at least as heavy as European armies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]Sideswipe BUG???
Thats a FEATURE
Now where the hell did my Lancers get to...
That is definitely a bug, it is the worst bug of this game and IMO it is ruining the enjoy. It is very unlogical. I can understand that horse walking through infantry may swipe up to some amount, but it should NEVER swipe more than regular charge, this is the unlogical part of it. Oh and I don't even want to mention the unrealistic "thin" lines of cav.
Quote[/b] ]Not the Saracen Inf, please *The haunting tune of the rout bugle plays*
I completeley agree with you here. I hate them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ]replace JI with futuwwas (which are a lot cheaper to upgrade, so you will still get a nice val 4 group)
Kardes, herkes anlasin diye sana yazacagim cevaplari Ingilizce olarak yazacagim.
No brother, futtuwwas are not cheaper to upgrade than JI. 1 example in order to make futuwwas equal to JI v4, you need to upgrade them to v4 w2 and it costs about 1600 where JI v4 costs about 1400.
BTW, 1 suggestion: Ignore the ghazis, they are just crap http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]I guess you had a lot of luck and skill then
Yep, honestly Sinan is a very skilled player. I'm not saying this because he's my buddy.
Quote[/b] ]Okay okay, I will fight more 15k's from now on if that makes you happy I dont think any type of florins is easier or harder to beat because the equal conditions apply to the enemy too, but not much of an argument.
Balamir, I suggest that you play 15k too. It is like a standard agreed by all vets. And well I must disagree to your opinion about any type of florins being easier or harder. If an army is more expensive to upgrade (such as the Turks), the gap will be bigger and bigger if you increase the ammount of florins. And btw I don't think high florin games are fun nor realistic either. Units fight too long and some of them even stand when flanked so you may even lose by unluck even if you are skilled, flank better etc...
Sorry this has already been a long post, but I also like to shortly share my idea of playing Turks both for 1v1 and for team games, which I guess became the main idea of this topic (other than the OT discussions of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif )
Most people know me or played with me know my general idea, but I'd like to share it with others, too. IMO, the most logical way of playing the Turks is using 7-8 strong hybrids that can take out enemy inf, JHI to take out enemy cav, and cav. just as extra units. You know a regular army has 12-13 combat units and 3-4 pavs. I have 12-13 combat units as well and my cav. is the remaining 3-4. This way I also have a strong missile army and also cav. in place of pavs, lol, and IMO it is damn efficient. In 1vs1 I just ignore the enemy's missile units and shoot at their main inf. instead. The enemy has 2 options, shoot at my hybrids (which is also my main inf) or rush. The worst thing he can do is shoot out, as you can guess 7-8 archers are much more effective and kill more than 3-4 pavs. And just when my ammo is about to finish I attacked to already halfed main inf http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'll have some casualties in the shoot out, too, but the opponent will have more.
If my opponent rushes he will still lose quite a lot of inf b4 touching, and because my hybrids can match their maa or militia seargents I win as well (note that I use JI at v4 and ottoman inf. at v4w2 or even sometimes v4w3). Now if I be careful and protect my flanks well vs cav with JHI I'll have 3-4 weak cav. to flank my opponent's main army. My cav. is weak (v0 alans or armenians) but they are quite effective at flanking.
In team games my strat. is generally the same, but with 1 important difference. Whether attacking or defending, I just stay a little back from the main line of my allies. So the opponent I face needs to march forward to shoot out to me,and if he does, I march forwards as well and shoot out his main inf. and be "in line" with my allies. If he doesn't march forward and just stand, I stand as well, no gain, no losses. If he move towards one of his allies to double one of my teammates, I move as well and use the same strat. there too.
Well I guess this is all I can say now, hehe it has been more than 2 cents http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Thanks for wishing good luck m8. I'll really need it because I hate tostudy at this age Damn I should have graduated from my uni earlier. Last year was a complete waste, maybe because of MTW. I hate you CA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I hope I'm still not too old to study this year and graduate from my GD uni I hate ir GRRRRRRRRRRR http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-28-2003, 13:24
Hi Kanuni,
Regarding combat point calculation summing up everything; completly agree; armor has nothing to do there. I would even say that charge has nothing to do there; it's secondary to attack and defense. Morale plays on another scale. I think we shall consider Att/Def on one hand (with a small look at charge) and morale as a separate factor.
AP; i think it's (Armor-3)/2, not (Armor-1)/2. Checking underway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .
1v1 10 shooter; if rushed with 10 hybrid on your side you win, unless your opponent had tailored an anti hybrid turk rush army.
Mitch comment on the 3/4 first post shall be regarded as; it's not stat only, it's versatility , a SBOW, etc...
Shield in h2h; variable effects some units use it in h2h not all of them an not all with the same effectiveness.
Charge bonus; new stuff to be checked; why do I seem to remeber that weapon upgrade gives a bonus to charge?
History; I think Sinan post an intersting link somewhere...
Louid the Simurgh,
Quote[/b] ]I hate you CA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I will take all your confessions at my topic "I hate CA" brother, we all feel the same way you do http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
As for the futuwwa thing being cheaper, I meant:
Upgrading a futuwwa to val 4 is cheaper than upgrading JI to val 4, but of course, a val 4 JI is stronger than a val4 futuwwa. Of course, if you try to equalise a futuwwa's strenght with JI's, you will need more upgrades, which naturally costs more.
I tend to stay out of the values and all those numbers about CMAA since Im not so good about turning the game to a series of codes, I play with my instincts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Okay I will play 15k's from now on (hopefully from tomorrow, which is when I get my copy of VI) but I must ask you guys to accept my apologies about ruining a few team games, because Im pretty damn sure there are a lot of players that can beat me their eyes closed on 15k
Edit: spelling corrections
Nice post Kanuni. I agree with everything you say except one technical point. The base v0 cmaa are 4/3 (att/def) with a large shield. Normally a large shield would provide +2 to def. However, the cmaa has a 0.5 shield modifier, so it only gets +1 def which makes the v0 cmaa a 4/4. Yas' unit compare tool shows correctly 4/3 + $1 . When you upgrade to v3 the cmaa becomes 7/7 which is what you indicate. According to the Strategy Guide, the shield does not increase def from the rear. So, there is a slight disadvantage to this def shield bonus because at times a man may get struck from the rear while fighting if the enemy unit gets a double team on a man, and, of course, if charged in the rear the shield bonus doesn't apply either until the men turn around.
I agree to be careful comparing units with Yas's tool combat rating. The v4 JI (1489 florins) are 8/6 and the v3 cmaa (1228 florins) are 7/7 which is equal. The 2 point charge advantage of the cmaa is very small. It normally takes 4 or 5 points of charge to equal 1 point of melee. Not considering the JI bows, which the tool doesn't weigh into the combat rating, the +2 morale of the JI stands out as a big advantage over the cmaa in my estimation since melee combat is equal.
One other small point: apparently charge is added to att during the first few seconds of combat, so v3w2 JI (1542 florins) would have 10 att during the charge, but v4 JI (1489 florins) only 9 att. In this case, the v3w2 JI now equal the charge of the v3 cmaa. However, since v3w2 JI has -1 def compared to v4 JI nothing is changed in terms of the JI vs cmaa matchup except the kill rate for both units will be 20% higher since it's the (att - def) difference that counts, and the JI lost its +2 morale over the cmaa. So, I agree the w2 is not a cost effective upgrade. I guess a double weapon upgrade might be useful on a unit that will be used to flank because the men can get a some unreturned strikes before the enemy turns and fights back. Or as in the case of the JI + Ottoman combination, you're already at v4 on all units and still have florins left to spend. The idea here being to get as much combat power as possible into the hth inf which I think is a very effective strategy for the direct approach.
Balamir,
VI incorporates a +2 morale to all units so 15k in VI is like playing 25k in MTW v1.1. My own feeling is that you get a somewhat better VI game at 12k, but most are playing at 15k now which should feel similar to your 30k v1.1.
Lol this is getting harder to adjust, 12k is the new fashion before I can even get used to 15k http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Quote[/b] ]AP; i think it's (Armor-3)/2, not (Armor-1)/2. Checking underway .
I think it was (armor-2)/2 for MTW v1.0 and they changed it to (armor-1)/2 in v1.1, and in VI it is still the same.
Quote[/b] ]1v1 10 shooter; if rushed with 10 hybrid on your side you win, unless your opponent had tailored an anti hybrid turk rush army.
I disagree to that. If you want to make those hybrids match up to maa and militia seargents the money won't be enough. So 7 (cmaa + mil searg) and 3 v1 chiv knights will easily beat those 10 hybrids. And the remaining 6? Well they will be weak anyway if you spend a lot to get 10 strong hybrids (probably 4 JI, 4 Ottoman, 2 futuwwas).
Quote[/b] ]Nice post Kanuni. I agree with everything you say except one technical point. The base v0 cmaa are 4/3 (att/def) with a large shield. Normally a large shield would provide +2 to def. However, the cmaa has a 0.5 shield modifier, so it only gets +1 def which makes the v0 cmaa a 4/4. Yas' unit compare tool shows correctly 4/3 + $1 . When you upgrade to v3 the cmaa becomes 7/7 which is what you indicate. According to the Strategy Guide, the shield does not increase def from the rear. So, there is a slight disadvantage to this def shield bonus because at times a man may get struck from the rear while fighting if the enemy unit gets a double team on a man, and, of course, if charged in the rear the shield bonus doesn't apply either until the men turn around.
Hmmm, I have always considered, pressing f1 and seeing what displays as base stats, because I've seen many mistakes on programs/sheets that show unit stats. The f1 screen displays the base stats of CMAA as 4/4, so I guess that shield bonus is included. So it is unlike ap bonus because in order to understand what bonus u'll get from ap, you need to make another calculation and add to that. I think that in order to decrease confusion it's better to look at stats in F1 screen so therefore ignore any shield bonuses. Though it is right that shield bonus will have a disadvantage from rear attacks, but even that can be ignored too, because a JI flanked from rear will rout as well as CMAA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]I guess a double weapon upgrade might be useful on a unit that will be used to flank because the men can get a some unreturned strikes before the enemy turns and fights back.
I understand your point here, but I still prefer to give 1v instead of 2w and think it is a more efficient way of spending money even in this situation. Instead of having a +2 att for a few seconds and a constant +1 att, I'd prefer a constant +1 def and +2 morale. It will hardly make any difference for the few seconds of flank anyway. A rear flank already kills too fast and I doubt a flanker will be that fast enough to kill more and use all of that +2 att in the few seconds. They kill what comes infront of them in the few seconds anyway, and charge bonus will probably be gone when the unit turns back, and the unit flanked will be close to routing anyway.
Quote[/b] ]Balamir,
VI incorporates a +2 morale to all units so 15k in VI is like playing 25k in MTW v1.1. My own feeling is that you get a somewhat better VI game at 12k, but most are playing at 15k now which should feel similar to your 30k v1.1.
Hmmm, IMO what you said about 25k feeling applies to cath factions vs cath factions or muslim vs muslim. Because as the florin amount changes the balance of factions changes as well. I like 15k better and I think that +2 morale is given to balance the game more a bit and decrease the impact of that too strong cavalry. I like the new system better because it is more balanced this way, otherwise thin lines combined with the swipe would be too unrealistic and too strong again, therefore I like 15k for VI better. BTW saying VI's 15k equals MTW 1.1's 30k is a bit exaggeration IMO. If you could increase each unit of your standard 1.1's army's valor by 1, would the amount be 30k?
Anyway as VI is a different game with some changes to balance the game (ex the increased price of knights), the florin amount of one cannot be matched to another IMO. I think 15k is a good, balanced amount for VI.
Kanuni,
I don't advocate w2 upgrade over v1. As I said, it's not cost effective.
The 15k VI would be like 25k MTW because 15k * 1.7 = 25.5k. The 1.7 is the cost of valor upgrade. The point I was trying to make is that 15k VI would be more like 30k MTW than 15k MTW. However, I agree with you that they are different.
I think the recently released Unit Comparison Tool (http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval) would end the debate, according to my experiments, JI with v4 can beat a v3 CMAA easily because the JI already beats CMAA in h2h when we dont consider the charge of CMAA which is not so strong anyway, and the only advantage of CMAA (its charge) is rendered useless after taking casualties from a few volleys from the JI, since the JI will be already advantaged and its better on h2h, has better morale; the CMAA wont be able to beat them.
Correct?
Brutal DLX
06-30-2003, 10:02
Kanuni, that Turk army you described is a nice one, however I think its primary weakness is the weak cav. Sure, if you manage to flank or get into the rear of the enemy, it can still help you, but on attack, if your cavalry gets into the back of the enemy army, that army has a bad commander. If you are defending, the odds are better, but a good general will keep one or two anti cav or cav units of his own in reserve, and they will likely be enough vs v0 alans and AHC (assuming a Catholic enemy, of course!http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
When I play Turks, it is essential to have a good cavalry, and I don't discard Saracens altogether. I also did some tests together with Sinan on Ghazi, and he agreed they still are usefull under some circumstances. However the interesting thing about the Turkish faction is its many many army setup varations due to them having a lot of units available. That makes them very versatile and if nothing else, at least a very good support army in team games.
Hi Brutal DLX,
I understand your point, but what I'm trying to mean here is usually the opponent should not find any units to face my cavalry because as a result I have 12 strong combat units if you exclude my cav. And if the enemy has 3 pavs + 1 weak gen, or 4 pavs + strong gen he will have 12 combat units too, so all combat units will be engaged and my cav. will be free. Think of the damage my 8 archers can do with bows, too. If the enemy has 16 combat units and therefore rushing me, my cav. will not be free and I'll probably lose them. But since 16 combat unit army units are weaker compared to mine, if I can be succesful in the remaining 12, then it means I still have the advantage. The damage of 8 archers while the opponent is rushing helps this a lot, too.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 13:38
I know from experience *ouch* that Kanuni army is very effective...
Balamir, it's not really 1v1 comparison of units; I think we all agree that CMAA and JI are very close in h2h ability. Now as far as unit selection or faction selection is concerned, you got to look at the big picture; yes JI are good and have a bow, but Turks don't have pav. In 1.1 that was a major issue because arb were much more powerful than SBOW with a much longer range, and arb+ pav made it very difficult for turks to effectively engage in missile duel. Xbow + pav are manageable in VI...
Brutal DLX (I have never been able to drop speedball 1 for 2 by the way...), can you elaborate on Turks strong cav? They can have fun all medium cav, but I would not qualify them as really strong.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 15:02
One point Kanuni
I used JI V3 A1, but the A1 is not for the armor benefit..
The A1 increases BOTH defense by 1 and armor by 1.
So with the A1 the JI gets a benefit against missles (the armor increase) and a defensive bonus in H2H.
I understand about the "anti-armor" of some units... sometimes you talk only of the CMAA match-up w/ JI and then you speak of the units overall use (as against MilSgts.). Well that was my point... overall JI are more flexible a unit than CMAA. No they won't win straight up fight unless I can get some solid archer damage in on the CMAA.
If my opponent rushes he will still lose quite a lot of inf b4 touching, and because my hybrids can match their maa or militia seargents I win as well
So this agrees with my statement that they JI is a better overall unit because it does both H2H and fires arrows.
Just that you use the V4...
I agree that JI V4 are the winner of the battle, but for relative comparison, I used units that had almost idenitical costs, the V4 are significantly more expensive.
JI (V3 A1) 1246 florins
Charge: 1
Attack: 7
Defense: 6
CMAA (v3) 1228 florins
Charge: 3
Attack: 7
Defense: 6 (7 with shield)
The H2H stats are almost identical after the charge wears off.
Morale is identical, resistance to missle fire -- edge to CMAA cause of shield.
-------------------
btw it is a great feature.... :P IRONY
-----------------
I regret stating much of that historical stuff as Medeival Turkish & Islamic armies aren't my strong suit for military history and I'm posting without checking my books... but as I recall the middle eastern armies really never could handle the European heavies head-up and tried to skirmish, attrit and generally exhaust the Euro kinghts before actually giving full battle, which was more of what I was trying to get at. How specifically the JI matches versus the CMAA historically, I can only guess, but it would seem to me that the CMAA is supposed to represents almost the heaviest footman that the Euros came up with (aside from the CFK). So I'm not sure that the JI should stack up as well as they do against them in H2H.
2000 BC - 200 AD Archaic/Ancient/Classical and the Eurasian steppe of that period is far more my thing, along with WW2 and I can talk that with fluency http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] ] know from experience *ouch* that Kanuni army is very effective...
Balamir, it's not really 1v1 comparison of units; I think we all agree that CMAA and JI are very close in h2h ability. Now as far as unit selection or faction selection is concerned, you got to look at the big picture; yes JI are good and have a bow, but Turks don't have pav. In 1.1 that was a major issue because arb were much more powerful than SBOW with a much longer range, and arb+ pav made it very difficult for turks to effectively engage in missile duel. Xbow + pav are manageable in VI...
Thx, m8 for your opinion about my army http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Well IMO, by being aggressive, marching towards main inf and shooting at them instead was an efficient way in 1.1 too, and IMO it was a good way to counter that arb power. Even if the arbs aim at your main inf too, because their reload time is much slower, you can kill more and faster then arbs do with more than 5 or 6 archers.
Quote[/b] ]One point Kanuni
I used JI V3 A1, but the A1 is not for the armor benefit..
The A1 increases BOTH defense by 1 and armor by 1.
So the JI gets a benefit against missles (the armor increase) and a defensive bonus in H2H.
I mentioned it many times as well. I guess this time it is you that didn't read well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif . I also mentioned that with every +1 armor upgrade eventhough you get +1 defence as well as +1 armor, you give away 0.5 ATT bonus to the opponent that has ap units. Copying and pasting: "for every 1 armor you take you get +1 defence but give your opponent +0.5 ap attack bonus"
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 16:25
First of all I'd like to start with critisizing the calculation of combat rating. I don't know who found this calculation [att+def+(charge+armor+morale)/2] but it is completely wrong IMO to include "armor" for this calculation. Armor has no effect in h2h fight. It is only good for missile units to be less vulnerable to missile power. It may be discussed that it is also good for spear units to increase their defence, that will stand in hold formation to hold enemy infantry. But repeat: it has no effect in h2h clash of infantry. So it is wrong to consider this calculation for a JI/CMAA match, all that takes into account for this is charge, attack and defence, that's all.
You made such a fuss about the armor rating here I assumed it was aimed at my using the JI V3 A1 as the initial example. It seemed like you were discounting the affect of Armor Upgrade to the defense rating as I had never said that armor rating affects the H2H either (and battle formula, i'm not sure where you got it, cause I've never said it worked that way)
-------------
The JI doesn't GIVE that defense point away to the CMAA as the CMAA has no anti-armor capability.
and if the JI gives it away to the Militia Sgt., the CMAA gives up part if it's armor to the JHI then too.
---------------
BTW
Since I've started playing the Turks exclusively, I'm beginning to understand their limitations better... particularly in regards to their resisting a full CK cav charge in the open.
I've had difficulty switching my style from my Euro army approach (which was cav and missle duel oriented) over to that which the Turks require, but we all live and learn, and it's gotten better.
-----------
Quote[/b] ]First of all I'd like to start with critisizing the calculation of combat rating. I don't know who found this calculation [att+def+(charge+armor+morale)/2] but it is completely wrong IMO to include "armor" for this calculation. Armor has no effect in h2h fight. It is only good for missile units to be less vulnerable to missile power. It may be discussed that it is also good for spear units to increase their defence, that will stand in hold formation to hold enemy infantry. But repeat: it has no effect in h2h clash of infantry. So it is wrong to consider this calculation for a JI/CMAA match, all that takes into account for this is charge, attack and defence, that's all.
You made such a fuss about the armor rating here I assumed it was aimed at my using the JI V3 A1 as the initial example. It seemed like you were discounting the affect of Armor Upgrade to the defense rating as I had never said that armor rating affects the H2H either (and battle formula, i'm not sure where you got it, cause I've never said it worked that way)
Sorry but everyone except you understood what I meant. And no I don't think even that phrase you quoted has anything to do with discounting the effect of armor to defence. Note that that calculation DOES consider defence, so I meant it is not logical to compare armor once more for h2h. And no I DID NOT make a fuss about it, I said my opinion that adding armor to that calculation is not right, and I guess all agreed about that as well as Louis did. And where did I get that formula? LOL. Sinan's combat rating calculation was based on that formula in the 1st page. Also Yas's unit stats comparison tool shows that.
Quote[/b] ]The JI doesn't GIVE that defense point away to the CMAA as the CMAA has no anti-armor capability.
and if the JI gives it away to the Militia Sgt., the CMAA gives up part if it's armor to the JHI then too.
LOL, and who said the opposite? You said earlier that JI doesn't suffer vs ap bonus didn't you? And I said it is wrong, and it does. I also showed you the calculation of ap bonus. LOL How else can I explain better?
Sorry but your last posts looked to me as if:
1. You either didn't read my post carefully or
2. You are mad because you were proven to be wrong about some points and just trying to make people percieve my posts wrong. But no, the points I made were clear enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 18:00
That's one of their limitations...
I think the army you field Mitch is quite close from a cath army, it shall not be such a big change. Is the heavy CK charge limitation linked to you trying to counter it with Turk cav (a cath player would do that...)? Cause that does not work often http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ...
Louis the Simurgh,
The only Turk cavalry that has the same charge value (8) as chivalrick knights etc... is Armenian Heavy Cavalry, but its morale is lower, so I guess it wouldn't be wrong to say that when you face knights with Armenians with "same stats" the fight will go evenly matched, but Armenians will rout due to lower morale. So if you want to face knights with cav. it will be better if your Armenians' stats are better, or take Ghulams that have lower charge but cheaper and make sure its att+def value will be at least +2 over to the knights, but in this case Ghulams will be too expensive too.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 18:09
I think the combat rating formula comes from the Berserk unit tool... Or maybe not. Anyway, Mitch and Kanuni, you agree even if you are not aware of it
Louis the Simurgh,
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 18:12
Kanuni,
I don't want to face cath cav with turk cav, that's, most of the time, a loosing proposition...
But killing cav with cav is something a catholic general is used to do, and that's an habit to loose when shifting to turk.
Louis the Simurgh,
Louis I think it is mitch who isn't aware that he agrees with me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Yes I agree about facing Euro cav. with Turk cav, as I said in my earlier posts it will be too expensive to get a cavalry that will be sucessful
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 18:22
Louis,
For flanks i try to get the cav out ther to slow the CK down knowing i will lose, but i try to get a free JHI out there to back it up. The real trouble has been strait on 6-7 CK coming at the infantry line (with follow on infantry) and my 4 JHI and 4 JI not holding espeically well.
-------------------
Kanuni
I conceded ur point that the JI will suffer an armor penalty vs. armor piercing troops. I also had a big (AFAIK) next to that first post, because I wasn't certain how the armor penalty applies.
Excuse me if i thought that the rant about "armor not affecting H2H" was directed at my post as a good 2/3 of your first response was directed at me and I couldn't find where someone had discussed "armor rating" having H2H affects.
Beyond that, this statement still holds true:
"the JI suffers no armor penalty vs a CMAA as CMAA are not armor-piercing. The JI does not give up the A1 defensive point when they fight."
The reason I said "if the JI takes a penalty vs. MS, is like saying the CMAA takes a penalty vs JHI " is because I've been trying to establish the relative difference between JI and CMAA is very small with respect to overall, in-game combat (i.e. both troops will suffer to one degree or other to armor-pericing units.)
The topic of this thread should have been for 1250ish Florins, which unit gives more value... JI or CMAA? The only thing I've been arguing -- is esentially what u agreed to in your earlier post that discussed your tactics -- that the JI is a better overall unit because of its range capability.
Quote[/b] ]Excuse me if i thought that the rant about "armor not affecting H2H" was directed at my post as a good 2/3 of your first response was directed at me and I couldn't find where someone had discussed "armor rating" having H2H affects.
Ok np m8. I mentioned this because the very first post of Sinan in this topic compares JI and CMAA in terms of this calculation.
Quote[/b] ]Beyond that, this statement still holds true:
"the JI suffers no armor penalty vs a CMAA as CMAA are not armor-piercing. The JI does not give up the A1 defensive point when they fight."
Mate, I don't think there is any point in repeating that as noone said the opposite.
Quote[/b] ]The reason I said "if the JI takes a penalty vs. MS, is like saying the CMAA takes a penalty vs JHI " is because I've been trying to establish the relative difference between JI and CMAA is very small with respect to overall, in-game combat (i.e. both troops will suffer to one degree or other to armor-pericing units.)
I must disagree here. It is not the same. While Militia Seargent v4 (costs about 1200) will have almost same chance of beating JI v4 "as CMAA v3", JHI needs about 3000 florin upgrades to do the same vs CMAA v3. So yes it is true that CMAA will also suffer vs JHI, but CMAA will win at the end if about 3000 florins isn't spent to JHI.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 18:46
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Mitch,
I have been caught a few times by CBR Mighty Click with 12 cavs on open ground and 4 JHI not ready to cope. All I can say is good luck. On the other hand JHI got the potential to turn the table.
Now, the initial contact between swarming cav in huge numbers and JHI is essential... JHI can rout on contact. But once the initial charge is done, then game over, no way the cav can make it. So it's all about slowing this cav down... Turk cav can sacrifice itself and do it. JI don't stand a chance.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 19:04
It's all about the Mighty Click http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
-----------
Kan
Quite right that JHI and MS are unequal units, fine compare apples to apples then...
MS vs JI
is essentially the same as:
MS vs CMAA
I was only attempting to illustrate that the penalties that JI & CMAA get for their armor are very similar and thus cancels out when comparing the units.
...but Mitch, Turks have no MS....
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 19:22
BTW Louis,
I think ur right, that comes from the compare tool.
I only look at the costs for upgrades vs. morale/ attack/ defense and a unit's charge.
Their unit "rating" system is highly flawed in that (as Kan pointed out) it doesn't figure the H2H correctly (although my guess is that they were trying to find some way to give the units a flat number that reflected all aspects of combat -- including missle survivability), also I don't think it handles the impact of morale and unit size well at all. (and I don't know if there is a way to acurately calculate that impact of morale differences through a simple formula).
That's why I think when comparing units, morale is the biggest key. You have to look at units when they have the same morale -- and then see what they cost to get there, and what their Attack & Def stats are in order to see which one is more cost effective. And then, if the units have different sizes, a judgement must be made about what impact that will have.
-------
Louis,
You're at 496 -- only 4 more to go Now if only I got credit for evey edit...
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 21:22
And even looking at units is not good enough, units effectiveness also relates to what other units are available within a faction. Looking at JI/JHI without noticing that Turk cav is not nearly as good as cath heavy cav or that Turks don't have pav is not really helpful. But how you figure that out and what value you give to that is difficult?...
No good way to sort that out. At least the Berserk number is limited in scope and easy to understand.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
06-30-2003, 21:28
Louis,
You are correct, no unit is an island when fielding an army and its effectiveness must be guaged against what else the faction has.
I see why u defended the JI so strongly. Although it is, by itself perhaps a bit unfairly strong, when placed in the context of the the rest of the army (esp. cav weakness) I have since seen why the Turks need a unit like that.
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
06-30-2003, 21:36
Now I got to convert CBR, if possible before he release his mod http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
I took that combat rating in Yas' compare tool to be an overall value rating of the unit. However, although it has a weighted rating for armor, it doesn't include any value for ranged weapons. So, a unit like JI is treated as though it has no ranged weapon in that rating figure. Also, dividing charge by 2 overweights that parameter. It's also very hard to put a numeric value on morale. Just the same, I think Yas' compare tool is excellent, and the combat rating does give you a rough idea of a unit's fighting ability.
There are two situations where armor affects a unit's ability to defeat another unit in hth. The first is when you intentionally shoot into a melee. More armor on your fighting unit will reduce its losses to friendly fire. The second is fatigue. Since armor increases fatigue under certain weather conditions and in desert terrain, it can reduce a unit's fighting ability relative to a less armored unit.
Kongamato
07-01-2003, 04:35
I read that you guys might be having problems with your JHI or JI taking a frontal cavalry charge. Have you tried putting Hold Formation on for the duration of the charge? That added +2 defence could help you survive it. Just remember to turn HF off after the charge, you cant win with it kept on.
It might not save the day, but every little bit helps. It's my last-ditch swords-vs-cav move. It winds up working best in late-game situations where it can help my half-dead swordsmen stop the charges of depleted and tired HC units.
Just thought I'd drop in and say this.
Brutal DLX
07-01-2003, 08:23
Louis, by strong cav I meant upgraded cav, not implying that Turkish cav is better than Catholic one (at same price level, of course). And get Speedball 2, dude.
It's just more...er.. brutal. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
And Kanuni, what you said is true, I've played with your army a couple of times, but I still made some changes and made the cav stronger, I can't live with v0 alans or AHC, sorry. The basic strength of that setup is that the v0 JHI are so strong vs. enemy cavalry, it's amazing.
The other strength is of course the ability to shoot and fight hand to hand with the same units.
But as with all setups, if you use it too often it will get countered, and one way to dent it may be exploiting the weak cav.
I think it is becoming common knowledge that the Turkish faction has to be played agressively in order to maximise its efficiency, thus experienced players will prepare for that by ditching at least two pavs and becoming AP and cav heavy.
In the end, I like to keep my Turkish armies variable, thus I will continue to use saracens and ghazi at times, but you'll never know when. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
By the way, do you use that setup also in the Late era? Same success?
Quote[/b] ]Puzz
There are two situations where armor affects a unit's ability to defeat another unit in hth. The first is when you intentionally shoot into a melee. More armor on your fighting unit will reduce its losses to friendly fire. The second is fatigue. Since armor increases fatigue under certain weather conditions and in desert terrain, it can reduce a unit's fighting ability relative to a less armored unit.
A third is armorpiercing. When two fighting units have about equal hth stats, it pays to have no armor if the other has armorpiercing weapons.
shingenmitch2
07-01-2003, 12:42
Yuuk, does fatigue grade-up with armor rating? Is it flat steps for "weight of armor" or is it a simple, higher defense rating -- higher fatigue?
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
07-01-2003, 13:43
Hi Mitch,
Higher armor, higher fatigue... Defense is somehow related to armor.
The only turn around that is increased valor; +1 valor adds to defense but not to armor.
Regarding AP in general, usually given the high correlation between armor and defense, it pays to have high armor, even if AP becomes a nuisance. A few units does not follow the correlation between armor and defense, but usually they have low armor and very low defense... So not a problem for AP.
Louis the Simurgh,
shingenmitch2
07-01-2003, 14:25
...
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
07-01-2003, 14:31
I don't think it's pure linear. You definitly feel a step up for around 7/9, I would say.
Fatigue wise, and AFAIK, the difference between armor 3, and armor 5 is smaller than between armor 5 and armor 7. But that's my gut feeling more than real test.
I guess each armor rating has a kind of fatigue 'target' but this target is not set in a linear way.
Louis the Simurgh,
Oh my God 99 replies and still on topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif Sorry guys I lost it, what is it that you couldnt solve in 99 posts http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
shingenmitch2
07-01-2003, 14:59
Talk to Seljuk, he started it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
ah... even 100...
This is how I think it works:
The fatigue states: fresh, quite fresh, quite tired, very tired, exhausted and totally exhausted are steps. We don't know the width of those steps. Fatigue is a rate that causes a unit to pass through these different states when the fatigue gets to a transition point between steps. For each state there is a recovery rate. The lower the state the greater the recovery rate which establishes an equilibrium point. For dry conditions, that equilibrium point seems to be quite tired. In bad weather or in desert, the fatigue rate increases. The worse the weather the more the fatigue rate is increased. This causes units to pass down through the fatigue states quicker, and it makes the equilibrium point lower. Armor is included as a factor in increasing the fatigue rate in bad weather and desert which makes the equilibrium point lower and the fatigue faster for more heavily armored units.
SpiderFromMars
07-02-2003, 01:39
..... which makes the desert a lovely playground for the unconventional soul http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Of course ATTACKING a desertflat is preferrable....
Brutal DLX
07-02-2003, 09:18
I see. We're finally off topic. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Good desert armies require unconventional unit choices, but I don't see why attacking would be preferrable.
shingenmitch2
07-02-2003, 12:34
Not sure... but attacking in a desert might be preferable to attacking a desert. The sand doesn't take all that much damage and it really gets in the eyes...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
07-02-2003, 13:40
I don't attack dessert straight away. I like to have dinner before.
Louis the Simurgh,
I still prefer defending my dessert though.
Annie
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
07-03-2003, 00:09
*Attack An dessert*
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
bah.... annie, simurgh... would you guys mind borrowing my account for a bit so i get to 500 posts too?
Well I love also all the high talk of JI in this thread. Indeed it is a versatile unit that can fill more than one role. Compared historically it basically sucks, there is no comparison with the JI in MTW, and historical accounts. The JI unit is weaker than CMAA in H2h at certain valor levels. Valor 4 JI should beat valor 3 CMAA, under normal circumstances. As far as the bow is concerned I don't think it's really any use unless you face an enemy who sits there and gettings rained on. In my MP tests valor 4 JI killed about 3 men of a CMAA with arrows before impact. IMO Janissaries in the game are split into 3 for gameplay reasons. JI is the standard swords infantry, JA are the dedicated archers which are really no better than the standard archer, JHI are the anti cav. It is an interesting attempt to recreate the Janissary Corps. Of course JI are good in the sense that you actually have a vanilla archer with some decent melee, but somehow a man trained for combat since age 8 or so should be a little better than a CMAA, or not ?
Anyway I love playing the Turks, from my historical research they are far from accurate but fun to play anyway.
What's the next topic ? Dessert ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
SpiderFromMars
07-03-2003, 17:38
Historically I believe the Jannies were a class apart? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
Des(s)ert? Marinated Kataphraktoi? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/redface.gif
Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe
07-04-2003, 17:09
Quote[/b] (Tempiic @ July 03 2003,00:46)]bah.... annie, simurgh... would you guys mind borrowing my account for a bit so i get to 500 posts too?
Give me your password http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Louis the Simurgh,
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