Your ideas on cavalry?

[Balamir]

First of all, I must confess I posted too much t'day, sorry if it bothers anyone. As to my thread, as I stated in one of the topics around, cavalry are vital for me. The default number of cavalry is 6 in my army which includes 2 light cav and 4 heavy cav, sometimes 1 light and 5 heavy. I use cavalry a lot because they are where my army's mobility lies, plus heavy cavalry eat swords like it's pancake. I tend to get my light cav to threaten the enemy pavs who are kind of small, lure enemy knights in to my shooting range, and help allies who are far away. As for my heavy cavalry, if they succeed then I will never lose the battle. Heavy cavalry are used to take down swordsmen, protect flanks, face enemy cav, face any threat to the general, and basicly, to outflank. The fact is that heavy cavalry are also great general killers for those who think choosing their genreal as a sword unit, and even for those who choose another type of knight (which is what mostly happens). This is why, I dont know how to battle in woods. The backbone of my army, is not the infantry, neither is the halberd, its the horse. outmanouver is whats necessary to crush a defence system which otherwise may seem invincible. As for the MP, I've seen players who never used cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . What do you guys see cavalry as?

[LadyAnn]

Just got a clan mate taught me the importance of cav this morning. I fielded a strong infantry army, but only has 4 cav. I won the infantry charge, and sorta manage to even out the other 5 cav (throwing in my general in the process too) until his general shows up and then my sowrds/axes ran. I ran out of things to counter the final cavalry charge...

9 or 10 cav is a must for certain faction, such as Russian. There is nothing else to play with http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Annie

[t1master]

i'm not very good with cav. i tend to lose track of them when the arrow exchange is over and they're either chasing or routing. i don't like them either. i prefer to keep my army in a tight group, with the flanks protected as much as possible, but eventually they get spread out. i've reluctantly made room for about four units of heavies cause i realize their importance, and as i slowly improve my troops movements and formations i'm finding the cav more useful. i rarely use fast cav cause they get chewed up by pavs.

[Brutal DLX]

Personally, I like to use balanced armies. But it's a fact that you can be screwed using those vs. cav heavy armies, hence the talk about too strong cavalry.
However, if you used an army with, say, at least 4 or 5 order foot, with mil sarges and missiles as backup, you could give a cav heavy army a lot of trouble.
Light cavalry are also very important, as they are cheap and fast, thus making them very versatile on the battlefield.
Overall, I don't see much reason to not select any cavalry at all...
By the way, Ann, I just played an MP as Russians earlier, used only 6 cav, 3 boyars and 2 steppe and one Mtd. Xbow.
Worked very well on defense. Repelled an English attack with moderate losses only, and was free to help my allies thereafter. (Ok, the attackers weren't exactly veterans http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)

[LadyAnn]

Inteteresting, Brutal. Wonder if you don't have any particular reason for not using Alan Cav or Lith Cav in place of Steppe Cav?

Annie

[Brutal DLX]

Lith cav... I just don't like them. Probably due to some traumatic experience in SP. And steppe, I actually checked out their stats like yesterday in the cool unit compare tool by Yas, and I thought, hm, properly upgraded they migth actually be worth something. Alans, only use them for Byz, else I take Mtd. Sarges or Saharan cav or the like.

[SpiderFromMars]

Alans ----> Da no.1 Cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Balamir]

I do agree on some heavy cav becoming too powerful, actually so powerful that they can only be beaten by other heavy cavalry, but still I rely on cavalry a lot, as my turkish ancestors did, they are great for mobility and doing the dirty stuff. Alans, they can chase the enemy if they survive the hot contact where I use them as flankers.

[LadyAnn]

I disagree on the statement that powerful cavalry could only be beaten by another powerful cavalry.

First, let's look at what could eat powerful cavalry for lunch:

1. Camels
+4 att +2 defense for camels against horse. Camel can spit on horses even in lush.

2. Spear and Pikes
They could be pushed back, they could be eaten by cavalry, their morale sucks, but they could still skewer some horses for shish-kabab. The Swiss Armor Pikes variety could be quite effective as well.

3. Halberdiers
They are slow, but don't ever charge cavalry into them (unless in the flank/rear when they are already exhausted, the number is down and their morale low).

4. Mameluke Horse
They are not powerful, but they have armor piercing...

5. Cavalry killers: Swiss Halberdier and Janissary Heavy Infantry
These guys are a class apart from the Halberdiers because they have same speed as regular infantry. Yet they have +3 att and +1 defense against horsies. These are real cavalry killers and don't ever get close to them. They have also armor piercing bonus.

6. Militia Sgt. in woods, Varangian Guards and Axe Wielder of Viking Era (JomVikings, etc.)
Strong cavalry are usually heavily armored. Armor piercing would reduce a strong cavalry defense to about 2/3, making them expensive medium cavalry.

7. Xbow and Arbalester and longbow
These guys can decimates the heavy cav with a few volley.

What do I miss?

Now, let's talk of economy

A val 2 Lancer (the ultimate heavy cav) costs 2500 bucks. It sure can kill a val 3 CMAA. However, don't expect lancers to kill enemy without being killed themselves. Each val2 lancer now costs 2500/40 = ~60 bucks each. Meanwhile, the rest of your units suffer. In the end, val2 lancer may survive till the end, but it likely would rout with the rest of the army.

Annie

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

3/ bis; CFK, GFK and the like; slow too but with much higher morale. Only problem; you need a pinner to slow down ennemy cav before those guys move in action

4/ bis; Gothic Knight are anti cav cav too.

5/ bis Billmen are in that category too.

Think that's all.

Looking at your 15 or 30 K turk set up Balamir (in another thread), I can understand you have problem handling heavy cav; add a few JHI and it will feel better.

Louis the Simurgh,

[Balamir]

Guess you guys are right, I've always have had problems about handling cavalry. Thanks for the advice too, I'll try harder about considering anti cav on VI. BTW, Louis, do you know any other type of anti cav than JHI in turkish since they are expensive and Im not sure if I can spend that much on them when I try playing 15k? Thanks

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

You can play JHI at 15K. 4 of them. They start with a morale of 8, so they need little upgrade if any. If you don't feel confident just go with v1a0w0. If you keep them close to your main army, v0a0w0 is completly doable.

Other cav killer; well once you got JHI, you don't need another cav killer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

Saracen inf is not too bad in early. Not sure that Turks still get camels in early anymore...

Louis the Simurgh,

[Shahed]

I can second (or third actually) that. V0A0W0 JHI can beat most heavy cav at v1-2, with AHC support you dont need anything else. If you have money go V1A0W0 JHI even better cav killer with some other possibilities for use too. Though I tend to keep JHI away from enemy swords no matter what valor JHI I have. I keep some AHC v1w3 behind them and if enemy swords approach I pull back JHI and engage with cav, try to divert my own sword support..or use JHI from the rear or to intercept inevitable Catholic cavalry incoming.

[Kanuni]

Not much to add here, but I'd like to mention 1 thing to Sinan though. In VI getting v2w1 instead of v1w3 is much better because of no gained valor during battle. Your unit will have the same att+def, with +2 morale and it will be cheaper.

[Balamir]

I get it. From now on I think I'll make some space for anti cav units in my armies. Not sure what I'll sacrifice from though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif maybe two from cavalry since I used at least two cav to counter enemy cav before, it wont hurt so much, and one from my swords on Catholic army. I suppose 3 anti cav will get the job done?

[Kanuni]

Hmmm, if you'll use the anti cav (say JHI) for anti cav. purposes only I think using "4" of them at v0a0w0 or v0a0w1 is better. But if I take a catholic army I don't use anti cav. anyway, I match knights with my knights. For Turks, JHI does the job and my weak cav. are only to flank inf.

[Balamir]

Quote[/b] (Kanuni @ June 28 2003,11:36)]I match knights with my knights.
I tried out 2 units of halberds and they took on easily against 3 chivalrics. But that was on 25k. What upgrades would you give to your

Halberds
Billmen
JHI
Militia Sergeants

if you were on 15k set up?

[Tempiic]

Take into account that I rarely play with catholic armies....

Halberds: Val 3
Billmen: no clue, i will try to give it enough valour upgrades so it reaches morale 8 or 10 but I dunno how expensive that would be
Militia Sarges: Val 4
JHI: I tend not to play with same army often eventhough its the same faction.... can range from no upgrades to val 1 armour 1, or val 1 weapon 1, or whatever.... I believe val 0 and val 1 tend to be the general upgrades.

[Brutal DLX]

Billmen, you shouldn't go higher than v2 with some weapon upgrade possibly, unless you have cash to spend, because they get very expensive.
I once took two v4 Halberdiers while playing as Russians. Let me tell you, they can take on anybody. But normally don't take Halbs, they are way too expensive, they need v3 at least, in my opinion.

[Balamir]

So you say militia sergeants instead of halberds?

[Brutal DLX]

Yeah, I think v4 mil sarges is pretty much the standard these days... if you're English, of course you can use Billmen, but not too many...

[Balamir]

Hows the feeling about this english army? I tested it on 20k and it worked fine, just 5k more and I'll be down on 15.

2 billmen
3 CMAA
2 longbows
2 pavise
3 temps
1 alan
3 Feudal foot knights

This was good as an attack army, I didnt take spears, because I find swords more useful than them. Any takers?

[Crandaeolon]

I'd perhaps ditch the FFKs and replace them with Militia Sarges. And chance Templars to Chivalrics. Perhaps add one pav at the expense of melee units. You should also consider the usefulness of the Alan mercs; perhaps they could be replaced with heavier cavalry?

[Brutal DLX]

As Crand said, get rid of the FFKs, take 3 mil sarges, or maybe 2 and add another Alan (or Mounted Sarge, which I prefer), 2 pavs is ok since you got Lbows too, but you need to be careful in the shootout. You could take one Templar as Gen unit, the other two definitely take ChivKnights.
Then of course its a matter of upgrades, but I'm sure that could be a reasonably good 15k army.

It's a shame though that almost nobody takes spears anymore. I don't like units completely omitted http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But you're right, swords normally are better. Also because so many use sword heavy armies

[Balamir]

I found out FFKs are a good attack based unit, dont you think MS s are more defensive?

Chose tempys because they are cheaper than chivs, or is it just my lack of memory? I'll try those out mate.

alans are no problem, I can replace them with heavier cav, I really thought about doing that. I'll try next time to see which one fits better.

I dont think I can afford another pav because the melee units are very important to my army. I can try replacing them with one of my LBs but I dont like pavs honestly and take em only so I can counter the enemy pavs.

Edit: using the unit comparison tool
FFK costing 1351 on val 3:
charge:3
attack:8
defence:5
armour:3
morale:14 elite unit

MS costing 1253 on val 4:
charge:4
attack:6 + armor piercing
defence:7
armour:3
morale:8

both on attack and defence FFK win. You guys sure armour piercing will boost the MSs worth that much? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
unit comparison tool (http://shogun.cafe24.com/medieval/)

[Brutal DLX]

Yep. Also keep in mind those FFK are 40 men only. But sure use them if you like It was just my opinion.

[Kanuni]

Yes Balamir, note that FFK has total 13 att+def value vs MS, but MS with ap will have 14. Also because FFK are 40 men, MS will easily beat them remaining with about half size http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Balamir]

Glad to say I won my first 15k 2v2 on crecy. I was the attacker. Setup:

2 MS v4
2 CMAA v3
2 Gallowglases v3
2 Chiv knights v1 (including gen)
2 Chiv knights v0
2 alans v3
2 LB v2 wep 2
2 Pav (I forgot)

PS: you guys were right about FFKs, MS are better but I found that gallowglases are useful with their charge value. I made space for 2 Gallows, I2ll keep testing them and decide if they are really worth it.

worked great

[Brutal DLX]

Good job mate Yes, Gallowglasses can be nasty, but you need to cover them, they get shot up easily and have no business vs. enemy cav, thus it was a smart move to take 4 ChivKnights plus light cav. you could also ditch the light cav or one v0 ChivKnight for some billmen, if you face an anti cav army.