Agema Phalangites

[Catiline]

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/grhoel.jpg


Agema Phalangites
The Agema are an elite amongst hoplites, a guard recruited from amongst seasoned veterans to protect the King's person on the battlefield. They are also deliberately prevented from gaining any provincial connections that might further the interests of rebellious nobles. They are fiercely loyal to the crown and have correspondingly high morale in the field - they will rarely run, even when all seems lost. They are also trained to route march for long distances with full equipment. Agema hoplites are equipped with good armour, greaves, helmets and traditional hoplon shields, and carry the 2.5m xyston thrusting spear and a sword. They are employed as shock troops, trained to carry out complex tactical actions, and can act as a phalanx as well as in more flexible formations. They need fear few other troops, but can be vulnerable to missile attacks and flanking attacks by cavalry unless properly supported by other friendly units.

[Stormer]

Iv just read it Cataline this unit by far sounds the best.

but theres also a building description thing.

http://pub133.ezboard.com/fshogun....1.topic (http://pub133.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=921.topic)

[Cobra]

Will this be a trainable unit, or just , and only, automatic for royal greeks?

[Shahed]

Hmm the started the building description on a freaky topic.

I like this kind of soldier. Hope they dont run at all unless ordered too, or (by some miracle) their AI unit leader orders a retreat.

Thx for the links and post.

[Balamir]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ June 27 2003,13:07)]Agema Phalangites
The Agema are an elite amongst hoplites, a guard recruited from amongst seasoned veterans to protect the King's person on the battlefield.


..have correspondingly high morale in the field - they will rarely run, even when all seems lost. They are also trained to route march for long distances with full equipment. Agema hoplites are equipped with good armour, greaves, helmets and traditional hoplon shields, and carry the 2.5m xyston thrusting spear and a sword.

..They need fear few other troops,
Its said they protect the king. So does this mean these buddies take Royal Knights' / Ghulam Bodyguards' mission in Greeks?


I think this is kind of the "spartan hoplite" people was asking for..

[Stormer]

nah i tihnks its just gonna be one of the elite of all hoplites.

spartan holplites are differant from these.

But what hoplites we're stronger these guys or spartans. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]They need fear few other troops, but can be vulnerable to missile attacks and flanking attacks by cavalry unless properly supported by other friendly units.

Wait, I don't get it. While I acknowledge that every armored unit, irregardless of its equipment, is to some degree vulnerable to missile attack, shouldn't a heavily armored, hoplon carrying hoplite like this one be particularly well protected against missile attacks? It is equipment like this that helped the Spartans withstand the massive arrow barrages unleashed by the Persians at Thermopylae. I always had the impression that heavy infantry units like hoplites and legionnaires would prove to be tougher nuts to crack by the bows of that era.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Edit - OK, after giving it some thought I'm almost willing to bet that the reason they mentioned the missile vulnerability is to dispel any impression that these elite units are completely invulnerable to missiles or flanking maneuvers.

[Monk]

well i like the sound of these guys, but to me they sound more like a royal bodyguard then an actual unit,


Quote[/b] ]a guard recruited from amongst seasoned veterans to protect the King's person on the battlefield.

they'll probly be in units of 60 with an heir or King as their general. but just like royal guards in MTW, im sure u can train more if you really need them

[Balamir]

I think the reason they made these guys vulnerable to missile fire is the same reason they made pikes vulnerable to missiles. Pikes are vulnerable to missile fire because they stand tight and very still which increases the chance of shooting a pikeman if you simply fire an arrow in that direction. The only reasonable explanation is this one; hoplites stand very tight which causes them to become an easy target to bows. For eg. 200 men in 50 squaremeters is easier to shoot than 100 men in 50 squaremeters.

[Sir Robin]

Looks like another good unit to have in RTW.

Building Description?

Vomitorium???

I heard about this but thought it was a joke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

Is this building really going to be in RTW?

What purpose could this building fulfill, besides contributing to anorexic troops?

[Kongamato]

The Vomitorium is probably a showy "did you know" or "oo thats cool" thing added to make the game less boring. I guess it will serve the purpose of maintaining and serving an upper-class infrastructure, something like Palaces in the other TW games.

[DrHaphazard]

Quote[/b] ]I suppose I can reveal that the purpose of a Vomitorium is to make a place more 'Roman'. It's a cultural thing to improve the alignment of a city.

It's also one of those 'Horrible Histories' style bits that really does need including in a game about Rome.

The above is from MikeB over at the totalwar.com ezboard. In fact i think yall would enjoy the entire thread that the quote comes from because he lets out a few other juicy (probably not a good word to use after talk of a vomitorium) tidbits that yall will enjoy.

Interrogating MikeB (http://pub133.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=886.topic)

No i won't tell you what he says, go read it for yourself http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[FesterShinetop]

Sounds like a real kick a$$ unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

About the Vomitorium:


Quote[/b] ]Wealthy Romans enjoy feasting and will consume many exotic dishes at a feast: stuffed mice, ostriches, flamingo and peacocks followed by many sickly sweet honey-based puddings

Yummy yummy... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Monk]

a VnV from the .com


Quote[/b] ]"Night Terrors"
Darkness is not a friend. Darkness is where bad things happen.
-2 Night Battles, +1 Personal Security.



oh yes...night battles it official excuse me while i do somthing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif ...thank you

[Nowake]

I'm not sure about how historically accurate is this unit, but I really like it. And the description ... fits the bill http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

Are they HOPLITES or PHALANGITES? Phalangites are pikemen, hoplites spearmen. Neither were particularly vulnerable to archery as far as I know.

Agema units existed in the successor armies.

The Seleucid one was 1000 men originally recruited from Median cavalry and when Media was lost to the Parthians from Macedonian colonists but remained cavalry.

They were brigaded with the Companions - descendants of Alex's corps of heavy cavalry - who were recruited from settlers of Syria, Lydia and Phrygia and were a standing unit. Either could be the King's bodyguard.

The Egyptian one was 3000 infantry at Raphia in 217BC - these were definitely pikemen.

The Macedonian one was an elite within a corps of "peltasts" - this being a title only and not a functionary description - these guys were pikemen, and probably were destroyed athte battle of Pydna. the "eltasts" were an elite of 2-5000 men at various times, the Agema being maybe 2000 of 5000 at Pydna.

These infantry Agema's were NOT dedicated royal bodyguards in the manner of MTW's Royal Knights, etc. They were "merely" elite infantry.

I wonder if these are also supposed to be Argyraspids?? "Silver shields", and the elite pikemen in several successor armies? The original Argyraspids were Alexander's veterans still fighting in their 60's and considered extremely effective - but too politically unreliable so banished to the far corners of the Seleucid empire

After them there were units in a couple of armies - most notably Seleucid, where towards the end of the empire they may have been equipped in hte same manner as legionaries, perhaps imitating thier fighting style.

[Lehesu]

Whoa Hakonarson I'm going to need a vomitorium all for myself to throw up all that history I just absorbed Really, I don't think that reading too far into the unit descriptions is wise, as they still have a lot of tinkering to do, and TW tends to generalize several types of soldiers into one humonguous generic thingy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

[kataphraktoi]

The Battle of Carrhae did not contribute to the idea of well protect heavy infantry against missile - there is only so much u can take - considering the incessant missile barrage supplied by trainloads of arrows just to pick the Romans off.

[Basileus]

looks realy good, never heard of it or read about it so i might look into http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Balamir]

Spartan Hoplites are up on .com. I didnt notice them, nor did I notice a post about them on the guild.Is it new or is it my bleak memory?

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/utsparhop.jpg

Spartan Hoplites
Spartan Hoplites are heroic heavy infantry, born into a military society, the survivors of a virtual cull when babies, and trained from boyhood to do little except fight for the Spartan state. The results are "perfect" hoplites, supremely disciplined, dedicated to victory and their fellow warriors, and thinking nothing of death providing that victory is achieved. Their morale in battle is, as might be expected, superb. The Spartan Hoplites’ great strength is to fight in tight formation. Each man's shield firmly fixed on his left forearm protect his left side and his neighbour’s right. If surrounded Spartan hoplites will form large hollow impenetrable defensive squares. Spartan Hoplites prefer a slow, ordered and silent advance, always ready to react to new orders from their commanders. Unlike other phalanx-using nations, they do not choose to charge until very close to contact but they let the younger hoplites burst out of their line to take an enemy by surprise.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif




Quote[/b] ] oh yes...night battles it official excuse me while i do somthing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif ...thank you


thats great I await a nice screenie from our developers so that we can see what they are up to on this subject.

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ June 28 2003,07:33)]The Battle of Carrhae did not contribute to the idea of well protect heavy infantry against missile - there is only so much u can take - considering the incessant missile barrage supplied by trainloads of arrows just to pick the Romans off.
Yeah but "the battle" of Carhae took place over 3 days, and at the end of it there were still a lot of live Romans.

A constant dribble of casualties can be very debilitating to an army, but it doesn't defeat them unless there's a threat of hand-to-hand combat combined with it to cause the soldiers to break. The 1000 Cataphracts with the Parthians at Carhae were not enough to constitute such a force against 20,000+ Romans, although they did wipe out a small detachment, and certainly helped keep hte Romans crowded into a small area and impossible to miss

Compare this with Mark Anthony's expedition - wher the Romans were under constant harrassment for weeks, losing maybe 20,000 to horse archers and never fightign a proper battle as they withdrew from Persia.

Or the surrender of the Spartans at Pylos and Corinth to Athenian light troops - in both cases the skirmishing itself didn't destroy the Spartans or force them to surrender - rather they broke when the Athenian hoplites approached, as their morale had been shattered by that constant dribble.

As for CA having time to change things and only putting up early proposals - well of course, what better time to set them right?? It's too late after the game's published http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rosacrux]

w-e-l-l... so much for historical accuracy. A hoplite phalangite? What kind of a hybrid is that?

Hakonarson described the actual Agema pretty right. In most hellenistic armies it was pike-armed heavy infantry, not some bizzare uber-hoplite.

I'd suggest CA to take a good look at the hellenic unit line-up we have put together in the Ancient Hellenic Mod in the Dungeon. Almost each and every ancient Greek unit type is there. It's not perfect, but it hasn't got pink elephants with aspis and korinthian helmets either http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Oh, well, one can only hope a)the game shall be fun to play even with such gross innacuracies as the Samnite Gladiator and that Agema and b)that the game shall be as modable as expected, so we can correct the obvious innacuracies ourselves



Edited to add

BTW, I've just noticed this from their description:


Quote[/b] ]They are also trained to route march for long distances with full equipment

Would that mean that different units shall have different marching ability? Like that, if you have elephants in your army, you'll be only able to march X "spaces" a season, while if you have an only-cavalry army you'll march X+Y?

If they do implement that too... that would be actually great... what is next? Attrition? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Balamir]

The marching ability is a good idea, as long as they remember to make an army's marching speed equal to the slowest unit in that army. So if you had 15 light cav and 1 elephant, you will still go with the elephant's pace.

Attrition is really easy to do. You can have a building like "supply center" or "military granary" that allows you to build supply vagons for every two turns (considering one turn to regenerate that food you used for a supply wagon.) Every vagon should have ability of nourishing a full stack army for,say one turn; thus a supply vagonwould be sufficient for a raid but not enough for a siege. Thats how its meant to be.

[Hakonarson]

And not forgetting the baggage train.....

But this isn't a game where each turn is a day - each turn is going to be a season - and over such a long period short-term forced-marching abiities are prety much unimportant as they have to be compensated for with much longer rests than mean the forces move at the same overall rate, or even more slowly than normal

I don't see what they're trying to achieve whith this statement.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] ]But this isn't a game where each turn is a day - each turn is going to be a season -

Unfortunately the last I checked the official word is that seasonal turns are out. Each turn will represent a half-year. Probably Spring/Summer followed by Fall/Winter.

[Hakonarson]

OK - so half year then - that doesn't help with supporting different march rates lol