Almohad Grand Strategy

[Crash]

I'm playing my first Almohad campaign, Domination is the goal. Which is the best way to expand - through Spain and Europe, or through Egypt and Asia Minor, or both?

I'm doing pretty good so far, managing to stay out of a two-front war by being allied with the Egyptians/Ottomans in the East, and keeping a strong army in Cyrenaica. My general strategy is not to attack until I am attacked, but I'm always prepared to be attacked. So far I've crushed the Spanish and Aragonese, purely as a matter of survival. The French attacked me, launched a crusade, so I'm in the process of crushing them. I also had to wipe out a German crusade. So I'm marching through Europe just because they keep attacking me, so there is no method to my madness so far.

Is there a better way? Should I go on the defensive in Europe and try to conquer the other Muslim lands, should I have done that in the first place? Or should I continue to bring the enlightment of Islam to the lands of the infidels? Hmmm...
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[DrHaphazard]

Well as always there are some pros and cons to going either way.

When i played as the Almos my first priority was to conquer the Spanish because i knew they would get to powerful if left alone. Then i set up Navarre and Aragon(Catalan?) as my border and heavily fortified it. Then i struck out eastward because the Crusading provinces (Jerusalem, Antioch etc) and Egypt, are some of the richest in the game.

This has a downside though of taking out the only other Muslim powers in the game. More importantly, those Crusading provinces will invariably lead to crusades, thereby making the Crusading kingdom your enemy and disrupting trade (which is really what makes those provinces so rich to begin with.) So the Crusades are a hassle, but ive never really had a problem driving them off.

My advice is to head East, work on your Navy and be friends with the Byzantines and Italians. Make sure to get boats in to the Adriatic and Black Sea so you can trade with all hte provinces bordering those seas. Make sure your navy is strong though, because in the long run you and the Italians are going to be enemies, and they always like to build boats.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I usually go crush the spanish... those provinces with iron are too rare not to. And they provide good income too. Since i role-play a lot, i usually don't atack other muslims if im one too. Unless they atack me of course... Then i get to unify the Muslims... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ichi]

Crash:

There's somthing to be said for basing your strategy on the current situation; so your current approach may not be bad.

In my last successful campaign as the Almos I:

Made nice with the Spanish, who spent their time fighting the French and trading w/me. Made nice w/ the Sicilians and Italians, worked hard early to build fleets.

Spent some time building (about 12 turns) before I began fighting.

Took out the Egyptians, stopping in Syria and Antioch. Fought off a few French crusades.

Made nice w/ the Byz, waited out the Golden Horde who spent most of their energy on the Byz and Turks. Built up a lot during this time.

Once the GH was diminished, started up again in Edessa, wiped out the Turks, then stopped in Georgia and Constantinople.

When I got a chance to realign alliances, choosing the English over the spanish, I went up through Spain, first into Western Europe (Brittany), then into Central/Southern Europe (Genoa). Once I engaged the Italians and Sicilians I wiped out their fleets and took the Med. islands

After England tried to stab my back, I wiped them out and took the islands, then the Danes.

Then a prolonged grinding pincer from W. Europe, Khazar, and Constantinople.

Finally, the Pope.

I think the secret was in stopping at certain points and building up economic capacity and troop quality.

ichi

[hrvojej]

I'm playing the Almos now, but I also must admit that I have to go as situation allows. Egyptians didn't want to ally with me, although I was trying to do that from beginning. Instead, they attacked me and now won't let go. They are allies with Sicilians and Italians, so I'm roasted when they decide to honour the alliance. I wiped out the Spanish immediately, but allied with the Aragonese, who serve as a buffer towards the mighty French empire spanning from Northumbria to Silesia (after only 30 years...). Not a very good buffer though, as the excommunicated Freanch keep taking their provinces, so I have to drive them away, and they don't even sally forth to help me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif .
The way I see it, it's easier to conquer muslim provinces, but they are far away from your base, and cannot be easily reinforced. Also, your coastline is getting bigger and bigger, which is going to be a real problem in my case. In other words, there is no right or wrong, just go with the flow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Portuguese Rebel]

Quote[/b] ]and they don't even sally forth to help me .

Hey, what do they want you for?

[Crash]

Yes, in my current campaign I've pretty much had to go as the situation dictates, which is probably for the best. The Ottomans and Sicilians each took about half of the original Byzantine empire, with Constantinople going the Sicilians. The Ottomans also wiped out the Egyptians, so I'm lucky that the Ottomans decided to remain my allies as I beat back and crushed the French and Germans. I will leave the Ottomans alone as they will counterbalance the Sicilians who are unexpectedly aggressive and successful in this game.

Now I am allied with the Italians, and I think they like the trade enough not to backstab me and lose a lot of florin income. So I am now at another decision point, in 1168 - should I go after the Sicilians, or the Polish, or the Hungarians, or the Ottomans, or the English. Or I can sit and wait and see who attacks me next, which is what I usually do. Since my armies are already on the borders of Hungary, Poland, and England, it probably makes the most sense to go after the one that has the highest value provinces - Hungary. Hmmm, decisions decisions...
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[Doug-Thompson]

The Spanish need to be taken out first thing, in my opinion.

I strip all the provinces of their governor's to get the concentration of force necessary, and build inns in my provinces with forts. This allows me to hire mercenaries.

Yep, I drop taxes to almost nothing to maintain loyalty in the governor-less provinces, and hire mercenaries. Why do I think it's that important? Because the Spanish are one of the few Catholic factions that can make war constantly. They make war on you, so there's no danger of excommunication.

===============

Leaving the Aragon as a buffer state is the plan I follow, too, for a couple of reasons.

If the Aragonese are on the ball, they'll take Navarre.Note that the sea zone off the north Spanish coast ends at Navarre.

If you take Navarre instead of Aragon, you can be invaded through that province invaded by sea from the Bay of Biscay. If Aragon holds Navarre, then the only way a powerful Catholic nation can get to you is to go through Aragon -- and get itself excommunicated -- or go on crusade. Either way, you get lots of warning and some early-game breathing space.

===============

Portugal's a pain. It requires a huge garrison, as everybody knows. You need to occupy the rest of the Iberian penninsula to pay for it.

===========

I like to leave Aragon in place as a buffer and expand through Egypt, if possible. Most early Crusades seem to go for Antioch or Tripoli anyway, making the Crusaders a help instead of a hindrence. Also, invading Muslim lands allows Jihads -- love that moral flexibility.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Crash @ June 27 2003,18:25)]I'm playing my first Almohad campaign, Domination is the goal. Which is the best way to expand - through Spain and Europe, or through Egypt and Asia Minor, or both?

... Is there a better way? Should I go on the defensive in Europe and try to conquer the other Muslim lands, should I have done that in the first place? Or should I continue to bring the enlightment of Islam to the lands of the infidels? Hmmm...
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Let me take a stab at direct responses to the thread's questions this time.

Spain should be destroyed ASAP, for many good reasons.

One of the small ripple effects of conquering Spain is: The Almohads and Aragon don't have much to fight about once the Almohads own the pennisula. If you are agressive enough early enough, an Argonnese counter attack would be suicidal. Aragon has no place to go for easy conquests to become big and strong. They become a weak buffer state between you and the rest of Christian Europe.

If you go to war against Aragon, consider that France and England are behind Aragon and that the Holy Roman Empire is behind them. As you have discovered, you have to beat all those factions to gain ground and keep it in Western Europe. It’s not impossible, but it’s much, much easier when you have the resources of the whole Muslim world to help.

The Eqyptians are rich, and probably at war with either the Turks, the Byzantines or both. They don't have a navy yet in the early game, making a shift between fronts difficult. They are far more likely to be in a two-front war, and therefore in need of rapid switches back-and-forth between distant fronts that only a navy can provide. They are far more likely to face crusades for Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine.

The European front can be guarded fairly economically, but describing that in detail would take a longer post than this one.

So I'm clearly in favor of an intensive attack to destroy Spain, then leaving Aragon in peace and making war on the Egyptians.

Sometimes, that's not possible. Sometimes the Eqyptians stay at peace with the Turks and the Byz, who fight each other. The Eqyptians leave a large army in Egypt, under those conditions. That happened in the game I'm playing now.

Then the Egyptians attacked the Byz. Shortly after, the French lanched a Crusade for Antioch. I attacked, just because I thought this would be my only chance. I lost all trade from Egypt, as I knew I would. I found myself in firm control of Egypt and the Sinai but scraping by on a few hundred florins profit a turn.

I thought the Egyptians were going to fight us all off, and then a Crusade from Italy arrived in Tripoli. That broke them.

[Crash]

The strategy to use Aragon as a buffer is intriguing, I'll have to try that the next time I do an Almohad campaign. It is plain that the conquest of Spain is the first mission of the Almohads, I cannot imagine doing otherwise. In my current game, I made one exception to my usual strategy to attack only when attacked, Aragon. If I hadn't made that exception, then perhaps I would have used Aragon as a buffer instead.

I'm still at peace with the Ottomans, they have been content to sit on their conquests for a long time. The Italians did break their alliance with me, sent a crusade, but I was prepared for that and almost completely crushed them on the next turn. So with the Spanish, French, Germans, Italians, and English now under my rule, I will probably win before the Golden Horde arrives. Hope I'm not being overconfident because the Ottomans and Sicilians both have large empires, are allied and have been improving their provinces for decades.

So far playing the Almohads has been almost too easy. The AUM are a huge advantage...
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[bighairyman]

kill the spanish ASAP, leave argon and nannver(sp) as a buffer. then allied w/ turks and invade egypt. after getting the province egypt. peace w/ them. rake in the dough. tech up. bult more soldiers. then finish the egypatins. return the army to spanish. bribe the rebel buffer province if possible(more troops) and invade france. kill them. leave a large garrison in flanders to repel english invasions. attack italins then the pope tos top crusades and then kill the scilians. turn north and attack germany. and by the way. when ur are attack the pope, built more soldiers in northen ittaly and be prepare for this invasion. the germans were in a civil war when i invade. bribe the rebels and kill the germans. turn north again and kill the danes. then turn west and invade england. after that. move army to border of polish and hungrains. peace for few years. rake in more dough. tech up. built up army. invade the turks. allied w/ the bzyantines for help. kill the turks. then attack poland and hungrains. kill them too. by this time. the russians should be fighting the mongols. help the strong and quickly kill the weak. then surpise attack the winner. kill them both. then use all ur resources and kill the bzyantines and win the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[Crash]

I wonder if I should start another thread for this one, but what do you use for heavy calvary as the Almohad? In my current campaign, the year 1179, I've conqured Spain, Aragon, France, HRE, Italy, Poland, The Papacy, and most of England, so far. In my last few battles against Italy and Poland I've had to rely on Mercenaries for heavy calvary and mounted missile units. And now with my empire so big, I have a serious shortage of calvary in general.

I've got tons of AUM, Murabitin, Muwahid, Nubians, Desert Archers, but my calvary consists of Desert Calvary and Berbers. So I've been hiring every Hobilar, Kwamazarian(?), horse archer, Mounted Sargeant, and Jinnette that can I find, and I've had to use them all in my recent battles against European armies. I've also had to hire every heavy spear/polearm unit that I can find.

Is this the normal course of action for the Almohad?
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[Doug-Thompson]

I should have mentioned that. One more reason reason to go East, young Almohad is so you can get Armenian Heavy Cavalry from Asia Minor.

You also get camels frrom Egypt and Arabia.

[Crash]

Ah hah Love those Armenian Heavy Calvary, too. Oh well, in hindsight, I should have prepared to build some Ghulam Calvary - probably in Castile. But that's one of the things I like about TW, always more to learn.

I've got an armourer and metalsmith already in Castile, but it will take awhile to build a Palace and a Horse Breeder. But it will be some damn fine calvary, with both weapons and armor upgrades, plus morale bonuses. In the meantime mercernaries and Ghulam bodyguards will have to do...
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[hrvojej]

For me, that's one of the cool things for playing as the Almohads: lack of heavy spears and heavy cavalry. Just like you learn how to use hybrids and horse archers when playing as the Turks, you learn how to cope without the most prevalent units for all other factions. I like to play them as fast-moving hard-hitting high-morale infantry army, with muwahids and AUMs as the core, and only a few saharans for chasing routers or eventual rear charge. Saharans can be quite effective due to their speed, and with a few upgrades (Cyrenacia, armourer, good general) they are more than decent in most roles. And I find that I actually kill more than usual with them, since I don't use hold with spears, charge with cavalry tactic that makes the units break quickly, but rather engage in prolonged melees that cause many more casualties, so the units rout from the amount of casualties instead of morale hits from cavalry charges.
You can't but to love the variety this game provides... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mount Suribachi]

As I'm finding in the Almohad Caliphate thread, the Elmos are seriously lacking in the anti-cav department, Nubians and Muwahid just don't cut it against RKs. They're fast, but just not enough steel to them. I think if you can grab Switzerland you should be able to build Swiss Halbadiers, but I think Swiss Pikeman are unbuildable by the Elmos.

Nothing (in early anyway) can beat the AUM as infantry, making the Arab infantry a somewhat redundant unit IMO. Ghazis are just as bad cos they die so damn fast Tho I do find them good for hitting enemy cav from the rear with their AP bonus.

For heavy cav, I find the Ghulams more than adequate, tho I'm not a huge Cavalry fan except for driving off archers and finishing off routers.

For light cav, Saharan Cav are great, as fast as anything in the game. I've not used faris much, I'm not much good with horse archers tho.

Desert archers are great Faster and better in HTH than normal archers, I love 'em

Overall, the Elmos are real tough in early due to the unstoppable force that is the AUM, but I can see them really struggle in High and Late due to their lack of decent anti-cav. Also in my game its 1191 and I've already maxed out on the tech tree for Elmo units bar Hashashin & Arbalests. I think they get a little left behind once you get to building Castles & Citadels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Crash]

Good points, hvrojej Now that I think about it, my battles have been going just the way you describe it - high casualty slug-it-outs with my infantry, with my Saharan Calvary moving in and out of the fighting like a welterweight boxer. They have to move around and try to hit the flanks, then run away when things get too hot, then rest-up for a bit and jump back in when another opportunity presents itself.

Thanks for the feedback
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[Crash]

Suribachi, I've been hiring any spearmen and polearm unit that I can find, but I think Muwahid with armor upgrades and morale bonuses can take on the RKs in combination with the Ghazis and their armor piercing bonus.

I position my Ghazis behind the Muwahid, try to hold the RKs with my Muwahid, and then kill with them with the Ghazis. They do die a lot, but they aren't very expensive in the first place, so I don't mind replacing them.
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[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Mount Suribachi @ July 03 2003,14:09)]As I'm finding in the Almohad Caliphate thread, the Elmos are seriously lacking in the anti-cav department, Nubians and Muwahid just don't cut it against RKs.
Another reason for attacking Eqyptians once you get the Spanish whipped.

Eqyptians cavalry is weak in the early game. Spanish cavalry is mightly fine if they survive.

A big, early economic advantage from conquering Spain and Egypt does not cover all the weakness you describe, but can help.

Camels have their limitations, but camels from Egypt and Arabia are very useful against the knights crusading in the desert provinces.

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hrvojej's point about how Almohads kill more of their enemies is fascinating. I see what he means, since AUM are one of the relatively few early units with good armor. Cyrenian Saharan cavalry is a great pursuit unit, as he describes.

AUM, desert archers from Morrocco, and Cyrenian Saharan cavalry are one of my favorite armies, especially when the Egyptians are still coming at me with peasants. Those bonused dhows from Tunisia are nice for taking over the southern Mediterranean, too.