Playing on Hard

[DocMoriartty]

I have no problem dominating the game on the standard setting.

When I switch to hard through things go right out the window. The AI suddenly gets a huge boost.

Archers who are hit from behind by heavy cavalry turn and beat down those pesky armored knights with their bows. Result: Knights break and run.

60 heavy knights in a light rain charge over rolling hills at a single unit of welsh longbowmen. Result: Knights decimated down to half strength while moving in and the rest annihilated again by longbows as melee weapons.

Cannons that the book specifically say cannot fire in rain do fire in rain. Result: It missed and I killed the men but its the principle of the matter.

What is it with the hard setting? Make the AI use better tactics or give them better men, but please do not boost their stats so much that Feudal Men at Arms break and flee when they attack head on (with another FMAA unit flanking) a peasant unit.

[The_Emperor]

Welcome to the org Mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I Know that on Expert the AI gets Morale bonuses but not on Hard.

Are you sure your general wasn't simply outclassed? or that he didn't have any Vices such as Good Runner that effect Morale?

As for Cannons, they can fire in the rain, its the Normal Gun Units like Handgunners that cannot.

[DocMoriartty]

As far as I remember the generals were not that far different in ranks.

Besides even if I had a rank 1 general and he was a rank 10 god I fail to see how his archers are going to win in melee combat against my heavy armored knights.

Bravery should only carry you so far.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

Welsh longbows are not your typical archers especially if they have upgraded weapons or armor and were created in Wales where they automatically get a +1 valor bonus. I only play on expert and I've had similar things happen to me. The knights usually kill half to two thirds of the longbowmen in the initial charge and then things seem to even out with the larger number of longbowmen dishing it back out to the knights.

I would imagine it isn't easy to program the game AI to think and act intelligently therefore it would be easier to increase the morale and damage factors for the AI controlled troops. For example the Vikings are known for their sheer ferocity not for brilliant tactics.

[khurjan]

thats them boys dishing it out to their betters for grabbing their harvest in tithe lol j/k


but hey it makes game interesting makes you thing different strategy like sending a expendable soldiers at longbow unit and than charging the unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Gregoshi]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Welcome to the Org DocMoriartty. Like with UFOs, there is almost always a logical explanation for what happened in your battle. If you happen to have a replay of it, you might be able to determine what went wrong. The replay can be a great learning tool. If something funny happens during a battle, save the replay and study it later.

[Brutal DLX]

I always forget the stat boni given for hard and expert, but I think on hard the AI just gets a morale bonus, on expert it also gets a combat attack/defense bonus.

When fighting in higher difficulty it is very important to check twice what units you have and what units the enemy has. Sometimes it might be better to wait until you get another unit or upgraded some. Also you need to keep your forces together on the field, single units that attack somewhere where they are outnumbered suffer a morale penalty, and it can add up such that even knights do rout.
And lastly, always consider the command rank of both your general and the enemy one. You don't want to fight vs. an enemy high rank commander, unless you have a similar or better one, trust me.

[hrvojej]

Longbowmen are not all that helpless in melee. They have armour piercing weapons, which increases their attack vs. heavily armoured knights. They have a decent morale as well. Knights were charging across the hills in the rain, and probably getting tired, which reduces their stats, and it's also possible that the longbows had the height advantage in such a terrain. They were also decimated by arrows, which reduces their morale. These are just some random thoughts about the possible reasons for the outcome described.

Gunpowder artillery can fire in the rain, that was an error in the manual (otherwise they'd be pretty useless in the sieges, since it always rains everywhere...).

On a side note, I thought that hard doesn't give a morale bonus to the AI, just that the AI plays its best, and that cheating starts on expert?

[frogbeastegg]

Quote[/b] (DocMoriartty @ June 30 2003,19:24)]As far as I remember the generals were not that far different in ranks.

Besides even if I had a rank 1 general and he was a rank 10 god I fail to see how his archers are going to win in melee combat against my heavy armoured knights.

Bravery should only carry you so far.

Don't underestimate the boost a generals stars will give his troops Ok here's a run through of the bonuses the two armies would get in your above example (sorry for any errors that sneak in, I'm sat in a load of paint fumes and they are making me feel woozy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif )

Your general=rank 1 bonus to troops=0 valour bonus.
Enemy general=rank 10 bonus to enemy troops=rank/2=5 =+5 to each units valour.
This is special valour. Normal valour adds +1 attack/+1 defence/+2 morale. Valour gained from a generals bonus gives no morale bonus (at least that what I heard and it seems sensible as otherwise the troops would be impossible to control at high impetuousness).
So those longbowmen start off as charge1 attack3 (armour piercing) defence-2 + shield armour1 + shield morale4.
With the bonus that becomes charge1 attack8 (armour piercing) defence3 +shield armour1 +shield morale4.
Don't forget that the unit will probably have some valour of it's own of the type that increases morale so it will be even tougher than this example.

The armour piercing bonus halves the targets armour so your knights would have had much lower armour Vs longbowmen than you may have originally thought. As Jacque Schtrapp says longbowmen are not typical archers in the slightest. They are knight killers, maybe not as effective as billmen but still not something you should send knights up against if you can avoid it. These longbowmen were so pumped up that your knights stood no chance unless they were of similar valour.

Brutal DLX is right-never fight an general that is a much higher rank than your own. A difference of just two stars can lead to you getting pounded

I think this bonus is meant to represent the confidence an experienced or famous general would inspire. Also the general would know how to use his men better, making them more effective. And I guess it also represents the fact a good general was rarely given an army of idiots which he actually took onto the field. The general would drill his men into some kind of order and thereby increasing their effectiveness. The better the general, the more he would drill.

Also as a side note: I heard +2 to morale on hard +4 on expert but I can't remember where.

[Brutal DLX]

Ok, you made me dig again for the data, best I could find was this, from longjohn, a dev. This info should really get copied to some sticky post... or maybe as a new sticky thread. Anyway here goes...

I can't comment on the strat map.
On the battle map, the a.i. gets progressively better up to hard level. On expert level, the only behaviour difference I can think of, is that it gets a bit more leeway to camp near the map edge if a suitable position is available.

The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can't remember the exact figure).
On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on experct its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.
Additionally it gets +4 morale on expert, and the player gets +4 on easy.

Also read the other thread by
TeutonicKnight for GilJay's general comment on diff levels. I also recall pdoan had all that info quite handy, maybe he'll post it again.

[hrvojej]

Yes, that's the post I remember, and upon which I base my opinion that there's no morale bonus on hard (forgot about the percentage thingy though...).

[Yelping Godzilla]

Hmm. I find it odd that everyone who plays MTW doesn't play on expert level. I find it even more strange that everyone who plays on expert level doesn't win and easily at that.

I've never played MTW on anything but expert. Of course without my previous experience with STW I couldn't have started out tht way, but I'm sure I would have reached Expert quickly.

I suppose my natural way of playing just happens to fit in with the slightly bizarre requirements of MTW.

Should probably stop assuming everyone plays on expert level and has won with peasants only :]

Unmodded game AI: Crap.
Modded game AI: Can challenge.

NB. Not to mislead - Can't really mod AI, just startpos, weighting etc

EEUURAAH.

[Brutal DLX]

Oh, we're all sorry Godzilla that we sometimes choose to play on other difficulty levels. Really. Almost ashamed. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Are you playing MP too? I'm sure you will find challenges there.

[Yelping Godzilla]

Here's the thing - I have no bragging rights and certainly cannot consider myself a good player because I absolutely will not play MP.

My post is really just to make the point that I and others like me tend to assume that everyone plays on Expert. It's a crazy elitist view and making sure you beat the AI on expert with a weaker faction certainly requires 'cheap' AI beating tricks that wouldn't work against a human at all.

Generally though, I don't think beating the Expert AI is beyond anyone. On lower difficulties I just don't see how the game can challenge you enough to be fun.

EEUURAAH.

[Brutal DLX]

Heh. I can win on expert. But often, as you said, you need tricks etc. to get going. I don't want oversized challenges, that takes the fun out for me. It's a time+effort related to effect/outcome thing. It's like playing RTS games like Warcraft 3 on hard in the campaign mode. It simply is not fun for me when you can't afford to make mistakes and have to start the save and go routine.

Similar for MTW, I can win on expert, I don't need challeneges from the AI that just make me waste extra hours of playing time, all the while being in the certain knowledge I'll overcome them anyway. I prefer laid back campaigns, tech up, a little conquest here, a little there. I pick my fights and am firmly in control of the whole map. (Please don't try to interpret that in a psychological way, it's just a computer game lol) That way I can enjoy the game, concentrate on establishing trade, unit training provinces and keeping track of what's going on. Hence GA mode is perfect for that.

[Urban Legend]

Well if you want the game easier and faster, I say remove/mod those inquisitors from the game.

Using them you can cripple all the catholic nations. But doing that takes a lot of time. Far better to go total war than go flamy flamy I say.

[frogbeastegg]

What Brutal DLX said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but with the following added on. I don't like expert for the same reason I don't like easy, one side gets an unfair advantage that can't be matched by the other. My main complain is the morale bonuses handed out on easy/expert because they are unmatchable and morale is too important to the game to skew in favour of one side like this. I don't mind 'cheats' like the AI having unlimited funds because as long as you know what you are doing it is very easy to match this, morale is much harder to match as the AI also builds churches etc so it's advantage stays.

I am a student doing a degree which requires a heck of a lot of work so I can only play for a couple of hours a week for most of the year. I don't have the time to fight repeated battles over one province or play an extended game. I have never finished a full MTW campaign for this reason, my work always interrupts a campaign half way through and when I come back to it a week or two later I can't remember what I'm doing. I have finished multiple VI/Shogun campaigns though as they are much shorter.

Tied into my lack of time is the fact that when I do play I am often very tired and mentally exhausted so I don't want a big challenge, I want some fun. I don't see why gaming has gone into a trend of games having to be hard and very long to be good. The amount of good games that get bashed for being less than 50 hours long is stupid, likewise fun and playability are much more important IMO than challenge any day of the week. I loved Luigi's mansion, Zelda WW, No One Lives Forever 2 and many other games that are done down for their length and difficulty. This whole obsession is just as daft as they bright colours/Nintendo games console=kiddie and therefore unworthy of praise and attention.

You are only mature enough to play a mature game when the fact that it is rated mature no longer matters to you is one of the truest things I have seen.

The sad thing is most gamers these days are much more bothered about gore and bragging rights than about gameplay and fun. If you admit that you found anything on a Nintendo console fun/difficult/entertaining then you are a 'BLEEP'. If you like anything which doesn't last for 50 hours at the least then you are 'CENSORED' If you play something viewed as 'easy' then you are 'NAUGHTY NAUGHTY', and of course every game is easy because otherwise you aren't macho enough.

It's really stupid if you think about it. All games are too easy for me because I am the r0x0r However I only play hard games because I am a big tough man Therefore this person cannot play any games because there are no games that are hard to him http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Thank God the people on this forum aren't like that You can ask for help here without getting Oh my God Like you are sooo retarded Read the 'BLIP' manual you 'BADWORD' It's like the easiest game evar You can't play games for 'SWEARING' if you can't do that I'm sooo b@da$$ for picking on a helpless n00b on the net, go me

I've not seen a single person with a attitude like this on the org which is most refreshing. Yelping Godzilla has asked a polite question and been answered politely with no bashing, boasting or showing off involved A truly rare thing on the net today. I can understand why some people want a hard game or a long game, it's just the obsession with all games having to be like that is beginning to get me down.

Just in case it's not clear this is a general observation of OTHER forums I've read, especially gamefaqs. I am not complaining about anyone on this forum or ranting at Yelping Godzilla who has a sensible attitude I have no bragging rights is a rare comment these days. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif I just wanted to ensure my point could not be misunderstood as it is easier to add in a sentence like this than to fix things if someone misunderstands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Oh and in answer to anyone wondering why I can post on the forum if I am so busy - simple, I am on holiday http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif I'm planning a full campaign as either the English or the Spanish to celebrate.

[Crash]

I like to play on Normal, just because it's more fun for me to be able to play and win in a short amount of time since I don't have a lot of time in the day to devote to MTW. In terms of pure game play, I would like to play on Hard or Expert, but it's too time consuming and intense for the limited amount of time I have. The campaign game does take weeks for me to finish, as it is. I really do enjoy reading about playing on Hard or Expert of course, as I want to do that occasionally too.

The bottom line for me, and I assume for most people, is to do what's the most fun for the time that I have for it.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Yelping Godzilla]

I suppose that much of my approach to playing the game comes from an attitude that I prefer to lose before I win. I don't want to do well the first time I try and when this happens in games I usually abandon them very quickly.

It isn't so much wishing to master everything with exact timing and choices by rote (could be said of WCIII and other games) rather I want to figure things out for myself and be challenged. I'm a big puzzle game fan, so I suppose there's something of a crossover.

Also I agree this board has avoided many of the pitfalls associated with such communities. It is at least overwhelmingly civil.

EEUURAAH.

[Brutal DLX]

I gotta agree with frog lady. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif However, the attitude at gamfaqs stems from the fact that those people posting there are most likely in the age range from 12-15. So I knew what to expect reading the message boards there.
Oh, and a tip from me, frog, play an Aragonese campaign instead, if you haven't done so before. It's much nicer to play than Spain. Play in GA mode and try to let the Spanish live, tech up, go for Navarre and maybe Aquitaine, then Sicily and the islands...it's great fun if you get trading going

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Yelping Godzilla @ July 01 2003,12:45)]Also I agree this board has avoided many of the pitfalls associated with such communities. It is at least overwhelmingly civil.
My experience with this board is that you are infinitely more likely to get clobbered by the patrons themselves if you start talking about OMFG n00bs than any of the patrons picking on you for actually being one. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Definitely a rare trait (and the one I really like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ).