Provocateur- a suggestion for new agent/troop

[Razor1952]

Provocateur, a new agent to forment(ferment?) revolts in neighbouring provinces.

Why Pros-
-In Vi spies are now seriously downgraded and caught in droves by WT making them useless.
-The ability to fight wars at all levels (diplomatic/battlefield etc) seems integral to the concept TOTAL war
-Some players will use them some not, surely variety is the spice of life.

Con,
-Maybe not possible with a mod?, may have to be in a patch
-With spies in MTW(not Vi) some people considered it a cheesy tactic.


Proposed Provocateur-
-Not an agent but trained like a regular army corp with upkeep costs.
-Expensive like 1k florins for a troop of 6 and 1-200 fl upkeep(helps stops flooding)
-When undetected reduce target loyalty by 10%/troop
-Have a % chance each year of being caught and if caught can be ransomed back.
-If caught operating on an ally, alliance is broken, if on neutral then % chance of war.
-obviously many variations on this theme about action


To sum up the player can precipitate revolts with provocateurs in vulnerable provinces however it costs and has risks.


Please add your thoughts , maybe somewhere somehow we might get them.(Looks longingly at modders/CA....)

[khurjan]

well good idea but what is use of having allies they dont do much


idea of provocateur catches my eye in that it can cuase a rebillion either to break away from that empire or even better join yours for no diplomatic penalty

[Razor1952]

Thank you for your post but.....
"what is use of having allies they dont do much"

I can't agree with that, in Vi alliances have saved my bacon by staying with me to trade (till I nuke them in the end), getting alliances in the mid game I find hard to achieve and I certainly think alliances reduce your chance of war with them. Its quite tricky IMHO to get alliances when you need them( as you'd expect).

Helping out your ally(by sending a relieving force) will really strenghten your alliance, and when everyone else goes for your throat at 60% they often will stay with you. That yields much needed trade florins....

[solypsist]

if you want this agent, just use spies and don't patch your mtw game (so your spies are effective in fomenting revolts.)

[Razor1952]

@solypsist

Yes of course I can use the 1.1 MTW but Vi despite its faults is overall a very good expansion and it would be a shame to let go the many improvements there just so I can play with my spies. A bit retrograde I think.

Also I play a lot on my Dell laptop(8mb video only&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and Vi will run but MTW won't(btw great job to CA on Vi for this , it prooves they DO listen)

[Degtyarev14.5]

Quote[/b] ]In Vi spies are now seriously downgraded and caught in droves by WT making them useless.

Here's my solution: the pop-up description for watch towers explicitly states that this is not just a few towers, but an extensive network keeping a close watch over everything that happens next door.

So why are they so cheap? Why do they take only one year to build?

My changes:

Watch towers: cost $400, taking four years to build.
Border forts: $800, eight years to build.

It really changes how you play the game, as can no longer afford to build watch towers in every province in the first turn. (Unless you're playing as the Danes, in which case you have better things to do than build watch towers.)

Just my two bits.

A.

[Razor1952]

Thats a great idea Arseclown, I would make WT 1k florins and 5 years to build and BF double that,

Usually they are the first things I build now they will be the last.

I presume the AI wouldn't build them as much as before, Can anyone advise me on modding this aspect, and if the ai has moddable build orders for buildings.?

[MiniKiller]

Here something else they could do.

Casue revolts in ur favor. Lets say the Scots hold a province you want, you could send that man in to downgrade the Scottish King (particually this would work if he is new and/or not liked, we should have a population loyalty thing aswell, to see how much the king is liked) and say how great you the Saxons are. A revolt could occur...a revolt of Saxons

[Degtyarev14.5]

Razor1952,

Build priorities are moddable (is that a word? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ) but this is messy and tedious. I found that simply upping the price and build time works well enough.

Watch towers: $1000, five years.
Border forts: $2000, ten years... ???

Well, I don't know whether I should go that far... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ToranagaSama]

Yawwnnnn....

I smell cheese....

In any case,


Quote[/b] ]-In Vi spies are now seriously downgraded and caught in droves by WT making them useless.


How to do a Spy "Flood" in the face of Watch Towers and "Counter"-spies?

Simple, you just need a lot of spies:

Take 10-20 spies flood them into the targeted province; Have 2 or more spies left in reserve; ALWAYS have at least one spie in "Training".

Worse case scenario:

Let us say it takes 9 (or more) spies, 10 turns to incite revolt; and each turn a spy is killed by either the Watch Tower or "Counter"-spy units.

The object is to maintain a minimum of 9 spies for 10 turns.

At each turn replace a caught and executed spy with a "reserve" spy unit; and replenish your reserve with a newly trained unit. Maintain this for 10 turns.

[Note: If more than one spy per turn is assasinated, adjust tactics accordingly.]

Whalla

Revolt.

Yawwwnnnn....

No new "provocateur" unit needed Just tactics.

The smell of cheese is getting stronger....


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (ArseClown @ July 01 2003,08:46)]
Quote[/b] ]In Vi spies are now seriously downgraded and caught in droves by WT making them useless.

Here's my solution: the pop-up description for watch towers explicitly states that this is not just a few towers, but an extensive network keeping a close watch over everything that happens next door.

So why are they so cheap? Why do they take only one year to build?

My changes:

Watch towers: cost $400, taking four years to build.
Border forts: $800, eight years to build.

It really changes how you play the game, as can no longer afford to build watch towers in every province in the first turn. (Unless you're playing as the Danes, in which case you have better things to do than build watch towers.)

Just my two bits.

A.
Sir you are certainly, no ArseClown You're thinking is RIGHT ON

See the new thread I just started:

Spying is tooo Cheap (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=8701;r=1;&#top)

[Speedy Gonzales III]

looks but a great idea but it would be too eazy to win the game. youd just put provo's in every province next to you borders and you wouldnt even need real armies...

[Degtyarev14.5]

ToranagaSama,

I had to sift through your posts a couple of times before I could decide whether you were with me or against me on this re-pricing policy. So, the stench of cheese hangs heavily in the air: from which direction is it coming?

Let me explain.

I have modded my stats to those I listed earlier, for the reasons I have also stated earlier. Another advantage of this that I forgot to mention is that one can no longer advance their armies on an every-other-turn basis.

Turn one: advance army.
Turn two: build watch towers.
Turn three: advance army, knowing fully well who is waiting ahead.
Turn four: build watch towers.

Of course, the presence of a castle breaks this pattern up, but you get the idea. With the new prices and build times, one must use their emissaries to scout ahead for towers, introducing new levels of logistics to consider if an enemy assassin or two may be causing problems. More on this below.

Then came the accusations of cheeziness. At first, I thought you were against my idea, as - I admit - it can give the human player an immense advantage in spy deployment. If the AI is delayed in setting up its border forts, or dissuaded from building them altogether, then the idea of a (successful) spy flood becomes much more viable.

Here's where I defend myself from flying cheese: I do not use spy floods, just one or two spies per enemy faction to give me some warning, however unreliable, of impending attacks.

ALSO, I do not even bother with border forts, as I'd much rather have my counter-spying assassins catch enemy spies, gaining valuable experience in the process.

On reading your posts again, I can see that you are actually opposed to the over-effectiveness of emissaries, watch towers and border forts, not that of spies. I agree wholeheartedly. How tall must a tower be to see right across a neighbouring province? I'm not even going to bother with the maths... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

As for emissaries and princesses, as such they should see only what their host would like them to see, much like the media today. This obviously does not include one's armed forces, except for occasional shows of strength and other over-sexed demonstrations of the my-weapon-is-bigger-than-yours variety. (The highly publicised MoaB comes to mind.)

Imagine this: before advancing your army, you must send an emissary forwards to evaluate the chances of getting a covert agent (a spy ar assassin) in. Then you must get the spy in before you are able to see the size and composition of the army that awaits.

If an enemy assassin is lurking nearby, and promptly kills your emissary or princess, then you have the option of sending for another, or taking a chance and going ahead anyway, risking your spy's life in the process. Alternatively, then you could just up-and-invade, without any knowledge of what horrors may lurk beneath, waiting to come out...

("Stay away from that Trap-door...")

*Restrains imagination, looks around to make sure there were no witnesses.*

In short, I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif I need to read your new thread again before I can comment on it, though: it's just waaay too late to think straight. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

A.

EDIT: a few amendments, additions, typo fixes, etc.

[ToranagaSama]

ArseClown,

We are totally on the same page

I disdain the use of the Spy flood. Fun once, less fun twice, ridiculouse after that.

Cheese? I don't smell any cheese coming from your direction.

ToranagaSama bows with respect, one day when CA deems to give us Campaign MP, TS looks forward to a test of skills.

[Why is there no bowing smilely?]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Degtyarev14.5]

MP campaign sounds mighty good... Yes yes, MWUUHAAAHAAHAHAHAHA http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Given the current state of the game - unfinished, IMO - we'd have to set a few ground rules restraining our use of agents, but otherwise it'd be bloody great

I often wish I could play a MP campaign against my brothers.

Bogun No.1: "I'll be Turks"
Bogun No.2: "I'm Egypt"
Bogun No.3: "I'll be the Germans"
ArseClown: "Fine, I'm playing Hungarians. Think I'll kill the Germans first-"
Bogun No.3: "I'll be English"

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

A.

[Knight Keimo]

People, don´t think too much about those agents..
After all, the best insult and provacation is to move army into someones elses province.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif That works allways..