View Full Version : Creative Assembly What level of authenticity do you want
Greetings Everyone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The purpose of this poll is to understand what the people visiting the org, want to see in the new Rome Total War.
Choices:
1. The language of the faction concerned, as close to accurate as possible.
example: Greeks speak Greek, Jews speak Hebrew etc.
EDIT: this would include the option to have subtitles in the language of the game version. It would also include the option to have the voiceovers in the language of the game version OR the authetic languages spoken i.e Greek, Gaelic, Hebrew etc.
2. The language of the game version.
example: You buy the game in French so all linguistics and voices in game are speaking French. Same applies to all other language versions of Rome Total War.
3. Other: Please state in post.
In my opinion there are only two options. I voted in favor of as much authenticity as possible for RTW linguistics.
Please vote, all comments welcome.
By the way, please drop a single word post saying which option you voted for.
Thanks.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Ahhh I finallly got it right. Please vote in this thread and not the other two. Thank you. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
rasoforos
07-01-2003, 22:44
well you know my oppinion http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Thelo i kathe parataksi na milaei tin diki tis glossa
θελω η καθε παραταξη να μιλαει τη δικη της γλωσσα
i want every faction to speak its own language
FesterShinetop
07-01-2003, 22:50
I voted for the first option as well, maybe with text on screen in the local game language (or just English). Kinda like subtitles if necesary.
rasoforos
07-01-2003, 23:40
by the way did the greek letters appear properly?
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ July 01 2003,17:40)]by the way did the greek letters appear properly?
If eta is pronounced "i" in modern Greek, then yes (I didn't know that it is if it is).
Ace of Shades
07-02-2003, 01:29
I agree I think it adds to the gameplay if they factions speak their native toungue, brings you more into the feel of the era of the game.
And as Apache subtitles if neccessary maybe an option in the menu.
rasoforos
07-02-2003, 11:02
hehe it seems to be unanimous , now Pls CA guys , make us happy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
On the second day this vote is 100% in favor of option 1:
The language of the faction concerned, as close to accurate as possible.
Also if you do happen to visit this topic, please do vote.
Konnichiwa,
Choice 1 for me too. I like this very much in movies and use it in STW too: it adds much to the atmosphere.
Atmosphere is 1 of the reasons I prefer season or even month turns over years.
-Kings come and go: every 30 turns I die.
-Lack of season specific events like a harvest.
A.Saturnus
07-02-2003, 13:03
Tja, bis jetzt keine Gegenstimmen... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
frogbeastegg
07-02-2003, 14:13
I voted other. Ideally speaking I would like to see the same options that were available in shogun ie a choice between native language and the language of the game version.
Realistically speaking as a historian I know that many of the languages needed for a realistic RTW haven't existed for centuaries. Therefore no realistic reconstuction of them can take place. I would rather have no reconstruction than an inaccurate one.
I would like to Latin and ancient Greek making it in for unit orders in the same way Catholic troops speak Latin in MTW. I would suggest modern Gaelic for the 'barbarians'. It wouldn't be accurate, it wouldn't claim to be accurate but it would add the necessary flavour to the game.
Apart from that I'm not too bothered as long as the voice acting is good.
Good points & nice sig btw.
Konnichiwa,
I understand what you mean frogbeastegg.
Now that we have added a discussion to this poll, which languages should be there (apart from the localisation option)? Latin, Greek and Gaelic seems to be a good start, any other (major) ones?
DrHaphazard
07-02-2003, 14:55
Well once again this is not a make or break thing for me, but i voted for No. 1 just because the game would be that much cooler. Now since I don't speak Latin, Ancient Greek, Ancient Phoenician (or whatever language those wily Carthaginians spoke) they really could make up any kind of crap and fool me.
I think the real point of having different languages, for me, is to further differentiate the cultures.
I want some good gutural (sp?) sounds comming out of the barbarian commanders along the Rhine
Having said that, I'm sure there are some historical experts who will blow their top when they hear words mispronounced or just plain made up because the language hasn't existed for a millenia or so.
I think its interesting to note that its 17 to 0 (and 1) right now in favor of using the original language. Perhaps a new choice should be added for "Would be happy with an approximate representation of original language," to differentiate between people like me and the hardcore linguists.
If Latin is used, I wonder if the pronunciation will be classical or modern liturgical (Catholic Church)?
i.e. God go with you. Dominus vobiscum. Liturgical Latin would be pronounced domeenoos vobeescoom. Classic Latin would be domeenoos wobeescoom.
Julius Caesar was spelled Iulius and pronounced Yoolius Kaisar. As in Kaiser Willhelm.
It is also noteworthy that Romans generally did not use punctuation or even leave spaces between words. All the letters ran together. A hell of a mess really.
Quote[/b] (Nelson @ July 02 2003,09:43)]It is also noteworthy that Romans generally did not use punctuation or even leave spaces between words. All the letters ran together. A hell of a mess really.
They would put a dot between the words to separate them (the dot was placed at the middle of a letter, not at the bottom of it as it is the case with fullstop).
I am sure that there will be things that people could complain about with regard to historacal accuracy no matter how good they make it (and not only when language is concerned), but this shouldn't detract the CA from doing their best to improve the atmosphere. There are many different views on history and linguistics, and it's impossible to reconcile them all, but that doesn't mean that the effort is not worth making. In STW, we had Japanese, which was magnificent, in MTW we have languages with weird accents, and if it turns out that in RTW we'll have only English, it can definitely be seen as steps back as far as the atmosphere is concerned. To be honest, I would really like to see things like classical Latin with correct pronounciation in the game, where fungi is pronounced foon-ghee and not fun-jive, but either of those would be ok just as long as it isn't pronounced mushrooms. Not that it's going to matter all that much, of course, but why not if it's possible? It certainly wouldn't take away from the game, only add to it.
Gaelic solution sounds good for the Celts.
rasoforos
07-02-2003, 19:03
well i dont think we ll mind if the greek and latin are not pronounced to the point. Wrongly pronounced but authentic languages is 1000 times more accurate historically than spartans speaking english http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Quote[/b] (rasoforos @ July 02 2003,13:03)]well i dont think we ll mind if the greek and latin are not pronounced to the point. Wrongly pronounced but authentic languages is 1000 times more accurate historically than spartans speaking english http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
That's what I was trying to say (sorry if I didn't make it clear; damn my convoluted way of expressing myself). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
frogbeastegg
07-02-2003, 19:31
Here are some more suggestions for languages. NB I am a historian of warfare and normal life not languages so they may not be the best suggestions.
-Latin=The Romans
-Greek=The Greeks, the Hellenistic kingdoms (Egypt etc)
-Gealic=Britons, Gauls
-Old English=The Germanic tribes
-Old Arabic/Sematic=The Africans (eg the Numidians)
-Some form of old Spanish=The Iberian tribes
Latin and Greek are obvious. Use the oldest versions and there you go.
Old English is about 1500 year old in it's most Germanic from and would be quite suitable for the Germanic tribes. it also sounds 'German' and would therefore 'sound' right.
Sematic is (I think) a very old language used in Egypt and that area of the east. Again it would fit the expected 'sound' of the faction while being fairly close to accuracy. Old Arabic may work but I don't know how old the Arabic language is or how much it has changed (I'm sure someone else will know)
Again I don't know how much Spanish has changed or how old the language is but the Iberian tribes would need a distinct language as they were very different in most respects to the other western barbarians. Giving them the same language as the British/Gauls would be as bad as giving the French English orders.
This would divide up the main religions/cultures up into packages which could use similar languages without being too general or too much work. I don't really like MTW's mass of Latin speaking Catholic armies and I hope RTW doesn't follow suit quite so closely. MTW could have divided the Catholics up into French speaking, German speaking, Spanish speaking and Italian speaking quite easily. English could be thrown in for the sake of argument but it is not important during the early medieval period.
Sir Robin
07-02-2003, 20:04
Number 2 for me.
I am not to majorly concerned either way. I don't want a drive to make everything as accurate as possible, hamper the fun factor of the game.
As for ancient Germanic languages, they varied greatly from region to region, latinized versions of some of these are known as a result of the written translations (the Germanic words given a mixture of Latin and runic letters) of christian literature.
A good site with links regarding ancient Germanic languages (among other things) is:
http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/lyfja/ghp/germanic.html
The lord's prayer in Gothic:
http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/paternoster-gothic.html
examples of various Germanic languages throughout time
http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/pater_noster_germanic.html
Brutal DLX
07-03-2003, 08:22
Normally I'd go with number one, but I have to say that would require a lot of research, not to speak on the financial matters of finding and hiring voice talent for the more exotic languages.
So I side more with Frogbeastegg, try to make language not faction, but region specific. Gaelic sounds good for Celts,
but old English... not acceptable for Germanic tribesmen. If they can't find any compromise, they should do some normal English with guttural accent, or have some scandinavian speak it.
Parthian region, Farsi would do. And African coast, Aramaeic, or Hebrew if nothing else is available.
North-Eastern and far Eastern Europe, maybe one of our slav patrons has a good suggestion.
iway ouldway ikelay otay earhay ethay actionsfay asway eythay
ouldway oundsay originallyway
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif
As I cannot add another option to the poll once the poll is started. I have made an amendment to option 1, thanks to the positive feedback in this thread as follows:
1. The language of the faction concerned, as close to accurate as possible.
example: Greeks speak Greek, Jews speak Hebrew etc.
EDIT: this would include the option to have subtitles in the language of the game version. It would also include the option to have the voiceovers in the language of the game version OR the authetic languages spoken i.e Greek, Gaelic, Hebrew etc.
In this manner you can choose to have the languages as close as possible, AND have subtitles in the language of the game version PLUS the option to have the entire game in the language of the version.
Nothing new really, these are the options which were available in Shogun Total War.
A.Saturnus
07-03-2003, 12:29
Well, it`s of course impossible to be entirely accurate, since no one knows for sure how Old Egyptian is spoken, but I voted 1 because accuracy should be the goal.
Totally Agree.
100% is impossible, but as close to it as we can get would be nice.
First choice, as far as I'm concerned, but the chances are ... low http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
rasoforos
07-04-2003, 22:22
Any CA guys to comment?
GilJaysmith
07-07-2003, 18:03
Disclaimer: personal opinion only - NOT a statement about how RTW is being voiced...
In my opinion, you need not just the right language and the right idiom, but the right idiomatically-versed voiceover artist.
Finding a good voiceover artist is time-consuming and expensive. The common industry joke is that a lot of games companies save money by getting the guys from QA to do the voice acting. You've probably played some games where this is the case. It took a lot of effort and auditioning to find the three voices used in Medieval, and I seem to recall some people here still dissed them. (I think Sean Pertwee's voiceover work caught some flak for sounding like a Dalek, which seems rather unfortunate, given how long his father spent fighting them :-)
So: while in theory it might be nice to have all this stuff sounding 'authentic', in practice it's expensive, and if something expensive can't be done *absolutely brilliantly*, it's generally better not to do it at all. No-one's ever (noticeably) complained about the pervasive use of English in games like "Age of Mythology", "Zeus", or "Emperor", nor for that matter in "Warcraft III". I strongly suspect that it doesn't hurt a game as much, in the reviews or in people's practical experience, to have good voice acting in English as it does to have rubbish voice acting in the historically correct language.
However, please remember this is just my opinion, and I haven't just told you that RTW is being voiced entirely in English, or anything like that. In point of fact I don't know, but I think that the above is something you should bear in mind :)
Gil not CA
frogbeastegg
07-07-2003, 19:47
People knocked Sean Pertwee? Why? His acting was good and he's a professional rather than CA's cleaner. The only 'problem' I had with it was I watched Cadfael so I kept thinking of Hugh Baranger (sp?) the under sheriff of Shropshire (for non Brits Sean played that part in the first series. Cadfael is a medieval murder mystery)
I was glad to see money spent on a set of good actors. If RTW does the same I will be happy.
If you want to hear really bad voice acting take a look at Koei's Dynasty Warriors series on the PS2, now that's horrible voice acting The demo of Evil Islands on the PC had me rolling on the floor because of the lousy VA, it was so bad I turned my speakers off
Some interesting points there GilJay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
rasoforos
07-14-2003, 19:09
Thank you for your answer GilJaysmith.
Given the overwhelming response for authenticity though, i think it would , in general , be a worthwhile investment if it is going to contribute to the decision of so many people to buy the game. It would make a lot of difference to the voicover artists to say some of those phrases in greek and latin but it would mean A LOT to us http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ( the community can even go find the proper translations for you guys , i can be at the University here in Greece to get a proffessor to do the greek phrases for me in no time ).
P.S : (we havent complained about the english in AOM ( i think they speak greek in this one though , havent played it) , AOE, zeus etc etc because they do not possess the authenticity of TW , not even by a fraction. Most of us here love TW and the job you guys do because of that authenticity.
P.S 2 : Thank you again for your answer , now go back to work cause we are expecting another great game as soon as possible http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I liked Sean Pertwee. His voice was perfect for Medieval, and it can very well be fit for Rome. Please CA, use the man http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I would settle for sub-titles and a bit of shoping music in the background.At least we know we wont get american speaking Romans:)
FesterShinetop
07-15-2003, 09:33
Quote[/b] (Saki @ July 14 2003,19:44)]I would settle for sub-titles and a bit of shoping music in the background.At least we know we wont get american speaking Romans:)
"Blimey, it seems to me the Barbs are gonna attack in the P.M." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif Something like that? That also has it charm... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
For a match, Apache http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
rasoforos
07-27-2003, 10:29
well if the overwhelming responce doesnt move CA we can always make a mod. If the CA gives us the phrases that will be used for the Greeks and Latins ( n any other nation that we can make more authentic ) prior to the game being released we can have the mod released shortly after.
Quote[/b] ]No-one's ever (noticeably) complained about the pervasive use of English in games like "Age of Mythology", "Zeus", or "Emperor", nor for that matter in "Warcraft III".
They are not game with a strong emphasis on history, or historical realism.
They also have quite important dialogs through the game, that make using accurate langages harder.
And on top of that, most of them are fantasy games.
Personnally, I could tell you that having orders given in latin was incredibly immersive in MTW. It just sounded right. And I could also add that I was interested in Praetorians, and gave a try. And I just stopped to the tutorials.
In fact, I stopped to play right when I noticed that my legionnaries were answering me "yes, sir" when I gave them orders. It just felt SOOOOO out of place, it instantly ruined the immersion in the game.
I do agree that the dialogs, the messages, COULD be in english. But really, the sounds of the armies in the background SHOULD be in the accurate langage. It just adds too much to overlook it.
Yeah legionaires saying "Yes, Sir" pretty much annoyed the crap out of me in Praetorians too... I played a few games, then just gave up - a large part of the reason was in fact the language. It just annoyed me. A great deal.
The fact that there was virtually 0% originality in the game didn't help much either...
Quote[/b] (jLan @ July 28 2003,00:52)]Yeah legionaires saying "Yes, Sir" pretty much annoyed the crap out of me in Praetorians too... I played a few games, then just gave up - a large part of the reason was in fact the language. It just annoyed me. A great deal.
The fact that there was virtually 0% originality in the game didn't help much either...
But RTW doesn't look like Praetorians, no? And really, how was it in MTW? You didn't paid much interest in what the "ones who are about to die" were saying, no? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Stefan the Berserker
07-28-2003, 22:13
Zitat[/b] ]not acceptable for Germanic tribesmen. If they can't find any compromise, they should do some normal English with guttural accent, or have some scandinavian speak it.
GOTHIC -> http://www.reimar.de/gotisch.html
Gothic is the oldest germanic Language known, from 300 A.D. it is the closest version to Acient Germanic.
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/~kurisuto/germanic/goth_wright_glossary.html this Link shows you Gothic-English Vocabularies (to check up favorite words).
The Book "An Introduction to the Gothic Language" from William Holmes Benett is acctually a good Source for CA to create Orders and Poems... (for those who think the 20 Euros are good spend, it's ordering Number is: ISBN: 0873522958)
AND-BEITAN (Translation -> CHARGE )
HALDAN (Translation -> Stop )
RINNAN (Translation -> Run )
A well, there you go.
AND-BEITAN CA AND-BEITAN
Stefan the Berserker
07-29-2003, 13:59
I want Poems again, like in Shogun. If something special happened, your advisor reported it to you with style. Perhaps take some famous sentences to be repeated if something special happens.
Examples: "Alea iacta sunt" , "Veni, Vidi, Vici" , "Vae Victis" and so on...
Also some extracts from the Edda would be nice... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
BTW: Sa Georgius Walkar Swein sai jah seins gens Kalki sai http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
(Check up the words with the Vocabulary, then you know what I said)
You can't have poems. In STW it was a point, as the reciting a haiku before seppuku was tradition, but in RTW ... there is no point.
Stefan the Berserker
07-29-2003, 21:34
Why not poems if a Faction is destroyed, that fits to the Faction?
"My Ancestors are calling for me, I can hear their voices, they are calling me to take my place within them... To see my Ancestors from Generation to Genration, back to Asker and Embla... Beyond the Gates of Wallhalla, where the Dead will live Forever..."
Similar can be added if something happens in Battle. For example if the Battlevoice says "Alea iacta sunt" if the enemy Troops flee...
This would be a good Massage-Sound if the Germanics are defeated...
Also a Video of Vercingetorix's Surrender in Front of Caesar would then be nice (for example at the end of the Caesar Champaign, through I guess Historic Champaigns in Rome will cover his Battles).
I was saying that in STW those poems really were historicaly accurate. You can't posibly imagine the barbarian chief composing poems before his death. Well, at least not the vast majority http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
DemonArchangel
07-30-2003, 19:56
It would be hilarious if epic poems i.e poems such as the Illiad were used to describe events.
While I'd obviously prefer if the factions spoke as-authentic-as-possible languages, I really wouldn't mind a compromise and have Germans speaking modern German, Romans speaking modern Italian etc.
Just seems like that'd be more bang for buck.
Sjakihata
08-02-2003, 23:42
option number 1
Quote[/b] ]by the way did the greek letters appear properly?
rasforos
Yes they did
Ahhh...
Number 1, as 59 before me have wanted. More than 85%.
I would love if they all spoke their original languages, I mean who wouldn't? But I would settle with languages that are fairly similar such as the stated Gaellic for the Celts, I wouldn't know really... Just like in AOE2, they had languages that were not really the right ones but many were similar enough (especially liked the English one), I just never found out, though I have heard the Byzantines spoke Italian.
Anyway that was a good production of languages, simply because most people found the languages to be at least quite similar to what they expected.
Hopefully CA can top that.
hope http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif we always do that, Tarrak
Yeah, but since an thread popped up to the front page at the com I noticed they will use accented voices and commands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
All voices will be in the version's language.
Voted for 1. I hate those games where for instance the bad guys (most being russian or chinese http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) speak english with their own people.
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Aug. 16 2003,20:10)]Yeah, but since an thread popped up to the front page at the com I noticed they will use accented voices and commands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
All voices will be in the version's language.
I know, but as I said, I hope. I don't know why, though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The community continues to express it's voice.
87% favor option 1.
The problem is that they have the veto, Sinan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
Does'nt mean they should not know. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I think this deserves a BOMP due to the Germanic faction's activity here at .org
It is spelled BUMP Sinan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
But with the recent Gothic orders presented by Jens and Stefan, I believe it deserves to get up there again.
Stefan the Berserker
09-11-2003, 17:38
Zitat[/b] ]No-one's ever (noticeably) complained about the pervasive use of English in games like "Age of Mythology", "Zeus", or "Emperor", nor for that matter in "Warcraft III".
Well, these Games differ very much from TW. Total War Games are played by historic-oriented Guys.
So TW is historic and in this Way totally Diffrent to the Games you mentioned.
I Shogun the Japanese-Language Option was included, through all Samurai-movie DVDs also feature this.
Other Games like "Sudden Strike", "Sudden Strike 2" or "Blitzkrieg" also feature original Languages. The realistic Scenario would be destroyed if it wasn't included (SS-Soldiers speaking american... Well, at least an explaination for Bush).
Quote[/b] (Kraxis @ Sep. 08 2003,15:11)]It is spelled BUMP Sinan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
Well my vocabulary is Sinanese, so boo hoo :P :P :P and I call it BOMP, KA-BOMP or BOOMPH. I have my own authentic Sinanese language. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif
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