Beserkes

[ziphnor]

Is it just me or are berserkers a bit over the top?
I mean in general both vikings and picts have a hard time getting a large income. Slightly upgraded beserkers can easily chew up most other units and only costs 7 in upkeep As the picts i've managed to in effect have huge armies at almost no upkeep (i guess thats even more perfect for the vikings which recieve cash in "bursts").

It seems the only thing beserkers have to be careful about are missile fire, but thats why you make sure to have a few armored spear units.

How many beserkers do you guys use? They are about 50% of my units in offensive armies.

EDIT: Yes i know i cant spell http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

they are much like hasishin(except they use mushrooms instead of hashish gameplay wise point them and let them go,hashishin must attack from the rear to effectively elemnate a unit preferable a unit with the general in it)but once they are under an exerienced generals command it will be sometime before they fall.

[frogbeastegg]

Ah yes, berserkers. They are incredible aren't they? I've seen two units kill more than 800 men, they were mostly peasants but still impressive. Get them the best weapon and armour upgrades and about five valour and they are next to unstoppable against the AI. I've been so successful with them I have limited myself to no more than two units of berserkers per army. I once had an army of sixteen berserkers and they conquered half of the massive Mercian faction before I got bored by the easy battles and formed new armies with huscarles.

[Lazul]

yepp... we scandinavian were kinda crazy back then... still are... jepp, really crazy, kinda anoying too... talking alot, not knowing when to shut up etc.
And we had long beards and... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

just kidding, yeah the berserks are a bit overpowered... but the are nice "anti-peasant" unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[ziphnor]

But they are lot of fun to play with I just won(total victory) my game as the picts, using ALOT of berserkers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The best/"most fun" thing is to have 2 berserk units gang up on one other unit while you use your spears to block as many other enemy units as possible(easy against AI).
2 good berseker units can kill 90% of a saxon huscarl units in about 30 seconds, and in so short a time, the enemy wont have time to rout your spears.

[bighairyman]

i had a good battle. 3 berskers VS more than 600 peasants.

and i won with only 5 died http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Mamushi]

I have only kept them as reserves,only commited them to battle once or twice. Not that I did not know they were good(course I am still partial to Kensai any day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) I just like mass battles. Large units vs. large units kind of thing. Anyway, I will have to try the berserker only army, just out of curiosity sake.

[kataphraktoi]

Just got VI this week, had a test rum on the beserkers.
Employing no sophistication i jsut sent them running towards an enemy formation - man do they rack up valor like vikings rack up chicks.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Beserkers make a nice addition to any army, but they really push the picts over the top. I think they have the most balanced army, next to the Vikings. You get solid light cav, good archery units (foot and mounted), the awesome Celtic warriors, and then the berserkers. I like them on defense the best. As the enemy advance, I send a unit or two of them crashing into the enemy army. The attackers lose all semblence of order as they wheel about and attempt to kill the 12 madmen...

And then my Pictish ponies smash in their flanks while the Celts put crushing pressure on their center. The AI can't cope with it too well.

[Foreign Devil]

Just fought a battle where one unit of berserkers routed a unit of highland clansmen and one of peasants... while fighting uphill. It was a steep hill too...

My Pictish campaign looks like it'll be fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ziphnor]

Hmm. i dont use celtic warriors, they tend to get butchered even against peasants in my exp. I like armies with alot of berserkers because they are so extremely cheap to maintain. Btw, has anyone else noticed how easily pictish cavalry gets hurt even when fighting fleeing enemies?

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (ziphnor @ July 05 2003,06:21)]Hmm. i dont use celtic warriors, they tend to get butchered even against peasants in my exp. I like armies with alot of berserkers because they are so extremely cheap to maintain. Btw, has anyone else noticed how easily pictish cavalry gets hurt even when fighting fleeing enemies?
The only problem with Pictish units is that they're fragile. Celtic warriors suffer casualties against... well, ANY unit in the game. The upside is that they come in blocks of 100, are fairly cheap, and they inflict at least as many losses as they take against most unit types. So, they suit my style of play (heedless of losses) just fine.

Even in easy battles I lost 10-25% of my Celts, hard fought ones depleted them by 50% or more. But the survivors gained quite a bit of valor, and Celts are cheap and require only the most minimal infrastructure. I had stockpiles of them in my coastal provinces, and after every battle I'd navy-hop them down the coast to reinforce.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (kataphraktoi @ July 04 2003,20:48)]Just got VI this week, had a test rum on the beserkers.
Employing no sophistication i jsut sent them running towards an enemy formation - man do they rack up valor like vikings rack up chicks.
they die to quickly

[Foreign Devil]

Celtic Warriors are effective against Highland Clansmen and Gallowglasses, if properly supported.

Pablo, good idea I was defending aganst the irish, who had a mostly Gallowglass army, and I sent 3 units of berzerkers right into the center of thier line, followed by several units of Celtic Warriors, and they were running within seconds.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Foreign Devil @ July 05 2003,23:02)]Celtic Warriors are effective against Highland Clansmen and Gallowglasses, if properly supported.

Pablo, good idea I was defending aganst the irish, who had a mostly Gallowglass army, and I sent 3 units of berzerkers right into the center of thier line, followed by several units of Celtic Warriors, and they were running within seconds.
CW are effective only when the enemy routs

[Leet Eriksson]

bonnachts rack kills pretty fast,i remember the first timei used them and i was like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Foreign Devil]

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ July 05 2003,15:11)]
Quote[/b] (Foreign Devil @ July 05 2003,23:02)]Celtic Warriors are effective against Highland Clansmen and Gallowglasses, if properly supported.

Pablo, good idea I was defending aganst the irish, who had a mostly Gallowglass army, and I sent 3 units of berzerkers right into the center of thier line, followed by several units of Celtic Warriors, and they were running within seconds.
CW are effective only when the enemy routs
I disagree... I've found them to be a match for Highland Clansmen and Gallowglasses. They're not super powerfull, but if used well, they will serve you well.

I've beaten Viking Landsmen with them, but only with superior numbers and a height advantage.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (Foreign Devil @ July 05 2003,17:04)]I disagree... I've found them to be a match for Highland Clansmen and Gallowglasses. They're not super powerfull, but if used well, they will serve you well.

I've beaten Viking Landsmen with them, but only with superior numbers and a height advantage.
CW are one of the units which are good but not great (like, IMO, Saracens or Byzantine infantry). They can outperform most other foot units in the same price range, but they won't stack up very well against Vikings or huscarles unless you've got an ace up your sleeve.

EDIT--
To be most specific, it's a bad idea to use just CW against any unit that will stand its ground. If you're going up against a group of troops that doesn't route easily, you'll want to do something fancy to help your CW out, because they'll otherwise be chopped to bits.

[ziphnor]

Regarding bersekers dying too fast, i havent really noticed that. I dont build berserkers until i have +1 or +2 armour upgrades, i guess that and being careful about timing their charges prevents them getting killed.(as mentioned earlier i use a few armoured spear units to attract most of the heat before sending in the berserkers)

[Urban Legend]

Its true berserkers are uber but their units are eliminated quickly. While their valor flies up, casualties take them away. In huge battles with reinforcements, expect to lose a lot of them. Though I never did lost an entire berserker unit.

Just avoid auto merge after battle and make small units of berserks for retraining as they take 2 turns to make, 1 to retrain.

[ziphnor]

I had one long battle, 7000 mercians attacking against my 1100 picts.
I had 4 or 5 berserker units in that army and all of them kept at least 50% of their original numbers( which is more than can be said for the armored spearmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I did manage to kill 4500 mercians though.

I usually avoid auto-merge as well, unless i have plenty of berserkers in which case i sometimes merge them to form extremely high valour units.

Berserkers are also great for attacking the enemy generals unit btw, 2x berserkers and you are pretty much guarenteed they will take him down before he decides to run http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Brutal DLX]

I think they should increase the training cost for them, their support is low, but higher basic cost would mean you couldn't assemble too many of them so quickly and would have to stick with one or two per army for quite some time.

[solypsist]

the 2-turn training time tends to offset their effectiveness. as the Picts, it would seem more likely you'd want to train 200 Celtic warriors than 24 Berserkers.

but yeah, they do kick. most economic defense against the vikings I've seen so far...

[ziphnor]

I agree that the 2 turn build does help. But you can always build them in parallel in any province and then retrain them in your best upgraded province using 1 turn per unit.

Anyway i *DO* prefer 24 berserkers to 200 celtic warriors

[Pablo Sanchez]

Quote[/b] (ziphnor @ July 07 2003,10:50)]I agree that the 2 turn build does help. But you can always build them in parallel in any province and then retrain them in your best upgraded province using 1 turn per unit.

Anyway i *DO* prefer 24 berserkers to 200 celtic warriors
12 beserkers, not 24.