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Oaty
07-07-2003, 23:38
I was wondering if it is better not to have upgraded armor in the desert or if it makes very little to no difference at all.


I noticed a great strategy for the desert. I was the almahods and attacking the turks. As soon as I hit the begin battle button the turks automatically sent in there horse archers to try to take my forces down, after taking some casualties I deprived them of there fast horse archers. After the horse archers routed or withdrew they immediately sent in there ground troops 1 at a time. I had no idea why in the hell they were doing this but I sent 2 units that were there counter for destroying them and swapped out units after each attack. This kept going till most of there army was FRESH reinforcemts and there general. So then I finally had to bring the attack to them. Well after watching the replay a day later I finally realized why the comp was doin this, trying to wear down my troops before I met there main army. The reason they did this was before I engaged most of there units they were already exhausted from the desert heat. Well I looked at the status of my units wich were all desert units minus my ghoulam bodyguards. Well all of them were quite fresh minus the ghoulams who were very tired when they came face to face with the enemy. So from now on if they have quite a few non desert units and I'm attacking I'll wait there a good 5 minutes till they start exhausting themselves just from standing there or make them bring the attack to me. I noticed quite the opposite shortly after though. Most desert units don't do well outside the desert.

As I'm still a bit new to MTW I'm gonna make a list of what units work well in the desert and what desert units you can actually trust to leave the desert. Feel free to add on or correct anything that's wrong or have a different oppinion on

Nubian Spearmen- basically north african peasants with spears. Seem to be the most versatile unit in the desert with not too may units being able to deal more damage than they do as long as there flanks are protected. There armourless body allows them very much stamina and any armoured unit will be exhausted or near exhaustion when they prepare to engage them. There biggest enemy would be the archer even the poorest ones get good target practice.
Do not take these guys outside of the desert

Camels- Basically anti horse units that frighten horses due to there bad smell and there nature to spit on every living thing they come in contact with even there loyal riders. Most units will be in fear to engage these beasts except Nubian spearmen. Do not take these guys out of the desert.

Desert archers- I don't think I need to say anything here but I've noticed this is one of the few that can work outside the desert with effectiveness.

Saharan cavalry- All there stats are poor (except for there good charge) and should only be used to hit a flank as I don't think theres a single unit that would get beaten from a frontal charge. Only use these guys to hit a flank and even when they hit a flank it is not too good of an idea if the unit is a good unit, Use camel jockeys instead if you got them. There best use is to chase down routing enemies and either kill or capture them.
With there great speed and most units being exhausted, 1 unit can capture up to 300 units for ransom or killing for your pleasure ( : These guys can work out of the desert but there best use there is to take some enemy spearmen or good cavalry for a long walk.

Mamuluk horse archers- havent used them as I've used berber camels instead. So any comments here would help

Urban militia- not a desert unit but have about the same armour as a Nubian spearmen wich gives them prolonged stamina compared to many other units. There big bonus is bonus against armoured troops, should the enemy be foolish enough to bring them in the desert. Although they seem to do poorly everywhere else it seems they can wreak havoc in the desert.

Murabitin infantry- (javelin throwers) (not sure if they are desert units are not) There javelins are deadly if used properly. Although they are skirmishers I find them best used in hold formation with either a unit right in front or behind. They seem to love big targets like horses. In hold formation I can have them take out up to 20 for poorly armoured horses but usually 3-10 mainly dependent on there armor and that is just from the charge. I've gotten better at using them letting them unleash there javelins and then withdrawing them. Yes they do need to be babysat cause of there short range and poor attack but as long as a unit can hold there ground in front of them or a unit hitting the horses in the flanks they can hold there ground for a short durations as the ones getting hit will use there javelins as spears for defense. They seem to work well everywhere.

Arab infantry- shock troops for the desert don't even seem to do that great there either but best left in the desert due to there poorly armoured body

If you noticed any units that I missed please feel free to mention them or any non desert units that I didnt mention that you know work well

Suppiluliumas
07-08-2003, 01:16
Vikings and highland clansmen are excellent desert troops.

Oaty
07-08-2003, 04:48
Well I can't disagree with you Suppiluliumas but there should be a penalty for vikings and highland clansmen in the desert, considering a hot day for them was 80 degrees.

scsscsfanfan
07-08-2003, 05:50
It seems that armour stat 4 (with or without armour upgrade - each armour upgrade adds armour 1) is the maximum that a unit can have in the desert without suffering the heat too much. armour stat >4 will cause the unit tired very quickly. Therefore, I usually has provences has weapon upgrades only for training of desert troops, or if use any armour up grade, make sure it adds up to 4.

HopAlongBunny
07-08-2003, 08:06
Vikings, highlanders, longbow, regular archers, jinettes, hobilars (not absolutely sure on these). I think most of the javelin units are lightly armoured as well, should work in desert.

OMG Ghazi how can we leave out the lunatic fringe of the Moslem faction? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Leet Eriksson
07-08-2003, 08:32
Bediouns-will rout any cavalry that charges in front of them in a desert region(even chivalric knights rout,i have'nt tested those Gothics or lancers yet).

Mameluke Horse Archers-are a mulitpurpose unit and used with Mameluke cavalry they could cuase a load of damage to the enemy,especially knights.just make sure you tire the knights first with horse archers and then attack with your cavalry.also mameluke horse archers can handle archers(not in an archery duel,but charging them),Infantry(tire them before fighting them,i find it very easy to distract heavy infantry with mameluke and then use whatever infantry i have to flank,most likely the ghazi)militia,and other comparable cavalry(light cavalry,horse archers...etc).

Saharan Cavalry-they are useful,not only in the desert,i found out that they can handle horse archers and mounted crossbows,also they are very fast and could be used to flank the enemies archers while its engaged with your army.

Arab Infantry are useful only when fighting spear units,and building armour ugrades for them would be much more useful.Almohad Urban Militia are alot better,almost the same stats as byzantine infantry,but don't use them in desert as they tire quickly due to heavy armour.

The Almohads lack a good spearman unit,since nubians are disciplined you could use them to hold a position and use ghazis to flank.as an alternative you could use Muwahids these guys are pretty confident and would last a while longer,but they come at 60 per unit,and thats a problem.

The only unit that get advantages in the desert are the berbers and bediouns the rest don't,but you could use the desert terrain to your advantage.

And thats my 2 cents on desert units.

Doug-Thompson
07-08-2003, 21:46
Re: Berber camels.

I was not impressed with the unit at first, but have changed my mind.

Now I put them into a wedge and pepper knights with arrows from long range. They can't really harm knights with arrows -- but knights will charge without orders.

So Berbers are good for drawing knights out of position, then charging themselves while already in a wedge.

If the fight is in the sandy desert -- an important "if" -- the Berber camels hold their own in melee with royal knights. If you get the +1 valor bonus for Berbers from Morocco, they can beat knights with less valor.

Also, skirmishing Berbers are very useful against spear units.

=============

It is very true that Almohad urban militia tire in a desert. However, it is also true that weary AUM can still massacre Nubian spearmen, for instance, especially with a little archer support.

Somebody said recently that Almohad Urban Militia, combined with Saharan light cavalry charging in from the flanks and rear and pursuing broken troops, cause more casualties than other early spear-archer combinations. This certainly was the case last night, when I tried something similar.

Kristaps
07-10-2003, 14:38
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 08 2003,15:46)]Now I put them into a wedge and pepper knights with arrows from long range. They can't really harm knights with arrows -- but knights will charge without orders.
Hmm, in my experience, arrows CAN harm knights even in the late period... I guess it has something to do with the horse being a bigger target than a foot-soldier.

Doug-Thompson
07-11-2003, 16:03
Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 10 2003,08:38)]Hmm, in my experience, arrows CAN harm knights even in the late period...
Only if the knights agree to stand there and get killed. The most I've killed just with arrows before they charged is two out of 20.

Berber camels are faster than foot archers and don't have to worry about getting killed by light or medium cavalry, either.

Crash
07-11-2003, 18:30
If you get a choice, attack in a sandstorm, especially if you have lots of camels - it will be a very interesting battle. The sandstorm seems to turn the Berbers and Bedouins into Pronoi Alloion(?) and Byzantine Calvary. The Muwahid, Nubians, and Ghazi are the best infantry in a sandstorm, but you may not even need them if you have lots of Berbers and Bedouins. Use the speed and stamina of these units to hit the enemy from every direction at once.

Saharan calvary are wonderful because they are so fast - ambush enemy archers and chase away their horse arches too. I always race them to rear of the enemy and take out their ballistas and catapults, then hit their archers in the rear, then pursue the routed units.

Mameluke Horse Archers are very sturdy - can play a dual role as tough light calvary and archers, and are good non-desert units too like the Mameluke Calvary.

The Muslim units can be a lot of fun...
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Doug-Thompson
07-15-2003, 02:11
I wonder if the fact that Almohads and Egyptians are "easy" civs counts against them in the minds of some players?

First impressions stick. As soon as somebody installs this game and lookes the factions over, he sees that Almohads are an "easy" civ. Anybody who buys a game this complicated has a good chance at scoffing and thinking Almohads are for rookies.

I don't deny the Almohads or Egyptians are easy -- at first.. No excommunication. No inquisition. Few battle fronts, etc.

However, they are also "fast" civs, to borrow a phrase from Age of Kings.

Almohads are a civ for people who like to attack. They remind me a lot of the Mongols in Age of Kings.