Where's a good place to start?

[Inigo Montoya]

I freely admit that I am a newby, or a n00b, or any spelling/designation you might prefer. After spending three weeks trying to get this game running (thanks to members here for finishing the job in one frenetic night), I find that I really have no idea how to play it. I've read the book and done the tutorial, so I understand the bare necessities - but I am still basically clueless. I'm looking for a couple of good strategy guides/starting primers for MTW. Heck, if someone even wants to say "Start here. Play these guys. Build this first. Send those guys over there." I would appreciate it, because I find myself overwhelmed with all the possibilities.

Thanks

[KukriKhan]

Many guys start here:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=3823 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=3823)
others just dive in: I started with the Byzantines and stumbled around on the strat map (lost in about 100 years because I didn't grasp the concepts of trade & sea routes).

3 or 4 factions later, I felt I 'understood' what the strategic game required - but in my eagerness to 'get' that part of the game, I'd neglected my battle skills. So instead of auto-calculating battles (which I'd done because I wanted to see the effects of my strategic decisions) I starting fighting them.

When I thought I had a handle on that (battle-fighting the AI), I went online & tried it against other humans.

I sux. Still. But it's fun.

Your mileage may differ, dependent on your interests, of course. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[pdoan8]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

My PC crashed while I was typing the respond. Now, I have to be the second one to point to the same place. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Need more?

[hrvojej]

Another possibly useful thread:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=8510 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=8510)

[Urban Legend]

You may want to try the Spanish.

Problem with the rest is that they have large numbers of province for a newbie.

Spain has 2 province with massive income.

[Inigo Montoya]

Thanks for the tips - esp. the link to the list of factions and recommendations. I think the Spanish suggestion is a good one - especially considering my on-line tag, and the fact that I'm a Monty Python fanatic. I've tried the English during the early period a couple times, and I don't even really know where to start. The TC link is going to be invaluable once I figure out what the hell is going on.

Cheers

[ToranagaSama]

Have you tried the Demo/Trainer? If not that should be the first place to start.

Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Have Fun

[HopAlongBunny]

Don't overlook the humble Danes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

One province, next to 0 cash flow. Only 2 things need to be remembered (1) Sweden (2) trade

If you can secure Sweden (possibly Norway) the only place you need to really defend...once the fleets are in place...is Denmark.

They get all the basic christian faction units, so you can get a feel for almost any christian faction.

[Leet Eriksson]

I'd say british,they are easy to start with and can have pretty powerful unique units(Billmen,Longbows(awesome unit),Kerns,Gallowglasses,Highland Clansmen and they share the Templars with the french).

[Brutal DLX]

Heh. I think Danes are a little too taxing to start with when you're a complete newcomer to Total War...
Spanish are a good choice, but the easiest is probably either Egyptians or Byzantines.. (Early era though&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Old Bald Guy]

MTW is a HARD game to get on top of. Really. That's what makes it such a great game with outstanding replayability.

If you have VI, then give the Sicillians a try. They are easy to develop trade with, you can pick off rebels and slowly expand, and they are isolated enough you can choose your enemies better.

Good luck. It will take awhile, but it's worth it.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

I think the danes would be a rather dull and slow start, with just one province there isnt much to do and initially its unwise to take ont the mighty HRE.

Spain is a good place to start, but I think almos are the best to learn with - there are two potential foes Egypt, who will leave you alone and Spain who can quickly become strong if you leave them alone but you only have to defend Cordoba. The economics is also straightforward, goldmines in N Africa and castles/ trade development in Morocco, Cordoba and Granada (for the AUM bonus).

You also get good monarchs and heirs which is often a worry with other factions.

[ShadesPanther]

I would recommend http://www.shadesmtw.com/ as it has some nice sp guides if you chose English, Turks or Byzantines it also has some nice background information

[Martok]

While the Byzantines are great fun to play, I wouldn't recommend them until you've got a bit better handle on the game--they have too many provinces to manage initially, and their position between the Catholic and Muslim factions only adds to the complexity. (I'm STILL learning how to play them )

I don't particularly recommend the Danes, either, at least not until you've had a little experience playing the game. Yes, they have a pretty nice strategic position, and the Vikings ARE undeniably one of the best units in the early game. However, your cash flow is so damn small when starting out, that it's very difficult to get any kind of military or infrastructure built up without immediately going broke. This situation is only made worse by the fact that the Danes don't have any rich provinces nearby that they can conquer--unless, of course, you're willing to take on the HRE, which is virtually suicide until you're stronger.

So to sum up: If you play as the Danes, you face the cruel irony of being poor, yet being unable to take provinces that are really worth taking


So who **should** you start as? In my opinion, playing the Almohads, the Egyptians, or the Spanish are probably your best bet.

The Almohad Caliphate and Egyptians have pretty good strategic positions, as they both have only 2-3 provinces touching other factions. In addition, they both have a very decent money flow--especially the Elmos, as they can build gold/silver mines in 4 out their 6 starting provinces. One other benefit is that as they are both Muslim factions, neither Egypt nor the Caliphate have to worry about being excommunicated by the pope. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Egypt and the Almohads do have a couple of things that can make life difficult, but it's nothing they can't handle. Probably their main weakness is that with most of their provinces touching coastline, both factions are somewhat vulnerable to seaborne attacks. Building a navy to protect against invasions from Italy, the Byzantines, etc., should definitely be a priority

Another potential problem is that while neither nation has very many enemies to worry about initially, they do have to be wary of the neighbors that they have. The Elmos have an intractable enemy in the Spanish, who will stop at nothing to kick them out of Iberia throughout the game. Getting an alliance with Egypt should be a priority for any Almohad ruler, as it will allow you to focus on the Christian barbarians.

While Egypt doesn't have a hardcore enemy like the Caliphate does, they ARE bounded on one side by the Almohads, and on the other side by the Byz and the Turks. While none of these nations are extremely hostile towards Egypt, none of them are very trustworthy either, and will definitely go after you should you show any sign of weakness. The Turks, in particular, should be watched, as they must invade either Asia Minor or the Holy Land if they wish to expand--and the Holy Land often offers a more tempting target (owing to their wealth) than Asia Minor does.


As for the Spanish, you only have 2 provinces to manage in the beginning; yet they still manage to have a good income despite this. In addition, the Almohads and the surrounding independent provinces provide good opportunities to expand without having to worry about earning the pope's wrath (from attacking other Catholic nations).

However, they do possess a major drawback in that they're hemmed in by France, Aragon, and especially the Almohads--and if you don't push the Elmos off the peninsula quickly, they'll very soon become a serious threat. Meanwhile, Aragon will take any opportunity to move against you, given the chance. While you risk angering the pope in doing so, I recommend conquering Aragon as soon as you are able to. This will free you to concentrate on the Almohads without needing to watch your back all the time.


Anyway, that's my advice for starting factions. Take it with as many grains of salt as you see fit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif



[Edited to make a long, rambling post even longer. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif ]

[pdoan8]

For the first campaign, I would recommend (all in early):

- Almohad: average to good money making provinces. Small number of share border provinces that can lessen the demand for border garrison. Good early troops (AUM, Nubian Spear, Saharan Cav, Desert Archers)

- Egyptian: richer provinces but share border with 2 strong factions (Almohad and Byzantine). Too close to Khazar and that is bad when you become the first one who have to face the massive number of Golden Horde. Good early troop.

- Spanish: small but rich in resources. The tough part is battling the Almohad whose AUM seem to be overpowerful.

- Danish: the capital province (the only province you have) shares border with one of the most powerful faction, the HRE. However, the back yard is wide open. Sweden and Norway are both rich in resources. Easy to expand East but would have to face the GH if expand too far South toward Khazar. Very good early troops.

[hrvojej]

Personally, I found my Spanish campaign to be fairly challenging. Almohads are a major problem, and you have to know how to handle yourself at least somewhat to push back their numbers. They aren't actually peasant rebels, especially not for catholics on early. And yes, that was the only camapign when I was actually wary of Aragonese. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Urban Legend]

To win easily with the Spanish, throw everything you have at the start of the game south till Morroco. Chances are the Almos will retreat. Then build an inn in Granada and get huge army and rush all the way past Tunesia.

Safer way is to immediately build a chapter house in Castile then a crusade. In 8 turns from teh start of the game, crusade Morroco with most of your army. Keep building crusades and you can easily crush the Almos. Also the Pope will love you and likely donate florins to help you.

Once the Almos are gone, the game is yours.

[econ21]

Interesting original post. I remember feeling overwhelmed when I first fired up MTW, and I had a lot of experience playing Shogun.

Other people have addressed which faction to choose. Here are some more generic pointers:

1) Make sure the game is patched.

2) Choose "normal" difficulty - the AI is smart and the odds are not fair (combats intuitive).

3) Choose an early campaign - less overwhelming choices at the beginning and you can learn organically.

4) Choose "glorious achievements" not "conquest"; it's more fun and gives you some direction about what to do.

5) Switch on the auto-tax. It's fine and one less thing to worry about.

6) Switch off "tidy up units after battle" - it can cost you some nice leaders, IMO.

7) Look at your list of heirs and keep checking it. If you have no heir by the time you are 40, type .unfreeze. This cheat is essential if you have the VI expansion (recommended).

8) Allocate titles - give normal titles to generals with high acumen (preferably 4); those titles that give a +1 command should go to the best generals or those that will lead strong armies. If loyalty is an issue (eg HRE or on hard), give titles to keep army commanders at 5+ loyalty shields. Marry princesses to them if necessary.

9) Make a strategic plan: who are you going to invade first? Are you going to build up first ("turtle") or expand rapidly ("rush")? Or something imbetween; eg take a few rebel provinces. This will dictate your building choices. Either strategy works - you can rush the AI or you can out tech them. Out teching them makes for a more satisfying game and may be better for learning. Different factions are more suited for different strategies - small factions, eg Poles, cannot turtle well.

10) Send out your emissary: first priority, bribe any juicy rebels (eg Welsh longbows, El Cid, Vikings etc). Second priority: make peace with those you don't want to fight (princesses can do this too). Later, when heirs mature, use emissaries to find princes for them to marry.

11) Build units: you need to make sure your armies are at least as strong as those in neighbouring provinces.

12) Buy buildings: make a plan for each province. What is it going to specialise in?
a) I aim for 3 ship building provinces, as sea-born trade is the (almost game killing) key to big money.
b) Some agricultural lands are very rich and benefit more from improvements (eg Flanders); improvements in those giving less than 200 gold (eg Tyrol) are not a priority.
c) Provinces with tradable goods need ports and merchants; merchants/ports elsewhere are not priorities.
d) Some lands have special bonuses for units (eg Granda for AUM) - use them.
e) Lands with iron need to be built up for metalsmiths asap.
f) I aim to develop at least five specialised troop building provinces: one each for spears, arrows, cavalry, swords and catapults. They need morale and armour boosting buildings plus the highest level of tech possible (eg feudal sergeants not spearmen).
g) But try to have more troop producing buildings in other provinces (especially spears and archers) for emergency mobilisation.
h) Study the tech tree and aim for knights (or equivalent); it takes time.
i) Get a chapter house if you are a crusading faction and build a crusade. If your GA includes crusades, build a network of ships to take you there - going by land is not recommended. Send a regular army with a good general to help out the crusade.

13) When it comes to warfare, make sure you have a balanced force: some archers and cavalry as well as heavy infantry (spears or swords). Bring siege engines for when the enemy retreats to the castle. Having a high command general is enormously important. Attack with overwhelming force and victory may be uncontested. If you want battle tactics, we can offer some but I suspect it is the strategic choices that seem overwhelming.

Have fun - to be honest, with a game this deep, learning how to play is half the fun. When you have found an "optimal" play style and do everything the same, the replay value suffers.

[ShadesWolf]

Byzan is the easiest campaign to start with. Take a look at my guide on Shadesmtw.com guide to Byzan on early (http://www.shadesmtw.com/gaminginfo/spbyze.htm) for more info.

[JohnCee]

Another general tip is to treat your allies with as much care as your enemies. They have a tendency to break alliances at the most inconvenient of moments. (I'm dyslexic BTW so apologies for the spelling).

By the way Inigo, I bumped into a six fingered man the other day... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Inigo Montoya]

Thanks for the advice. There's some good basic gameplay suggestions in this thread, which is what I need (and I mean basic in the same sense that a basic knowledge of how to pull out a chair and sit down is necessary for going to school and learning Calculus). I've found this game to be so complex that, while I understand most of the elements in isolation (which is essentially how they're described in the manual), I have no real idea which things I should concentrate on or how they work in combination.

For example, I've started the game a few times as the English in the Early Period (playing Easy or Normal difficulty), because the manual suggests this. So I start with 6 provinces and standing troops in each one. However, I rarely have anyone with good acumen where I need them to be - and frequently my two best money guys are a part of the same army. So should I march these guys immediately to one of the rich provinces and give them a title, and should I split the smart guys out of their subordinate position so they can be titled? Or should I hold off on all titles until some of my generals have actually done something worthwhile for the kingdom, or until I manage to produce a knight who also happens to be smart with money?

The reason I'm obsessed with this particular decision is that - even though I'm a n00b and therefore stupid by definition - it has quickly been made clear that finances are the ultimate factor in this game and I keep running out of money.

Thanks for all the tips... I hope people keep posting here; there's been a lot of good stuff.


Oh, and as for the six-fingered man - I cannot deal with him right now, as I am currently waiting for Vizzini.

[hrvojej]

Quote[/b] (Inigo Montoya @ July 09 2003,10:28)]For example, I've started the game a few times as the English in the Early Period (playing Easy or Normal difficulty), because the manual suggests this. So I start with 6 provinces and standing troops in each one. However, I rarely have anyone with good acumen where I need them to be - and frequently my two best money guys are a part of the same army. So should I march these guys immediately to one of the rich provinces and give them a title, and should I split the smart guys out of their subordinate position so they can be titled? Or should I hold off on all titles until some of my generals have actually done something worthwhile for the kingdom, or until I manage to produce a knight who also happens to be smart with money?
My honest advice, and this is not because I'm some fanatic who likes his games as hard as possible, is to start on normal. Easy level just gives too many unfair advantages to the player, resulting in a game that feels completely different. But again, that's just an opinion, stemming from the fact that I don't like uneven playing field.

You should give out all the titles immediately to the guys who have the best accumen. As a rule, the higher the income from a province is, the better acumen the governor should have. At start, you probably have pretty lousy governor candidates, but that doesn't matter, you can always use emissaries to strip titles later on as better guys show up. The reason is that even 1 acumen is better than no governor, i.e. you'll get more income from the province. By all means, split the armies and assign titles to folks who would be best suited for them in a given situation. Obviously, armies are not a given, and you can shuffle their composition however suits you. The unit doesn't have to be present in a province to be given a title, just drag it and drop it on a unit even if it's half a map away from the province. The only exception to the acumen thing I mentioned would be the provinces that give command rating to the governor. Those you might want to give to people who you plan to develop as generals, e.g. those who already start with a few stars. Use the titles given by the buildings (various palaces) to further boost some governors/generals.
Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[econ21]

Giving titles wisely helps a little, but it is sea-born trade that brings in the serious money. (Well, that and conquering juicy provinces, of course). I don't think governors need to be in "their" provinces and haven't noticed adverse effects of giving titles to commoners. Hrvojej's advice on titles is spot on, IMHO.

[Martok]

"I don't think governors need to be in "their" provinces and haven't noticed adverse effects of giving titles to commoners. Hrvojej's advice on titles is spot on, IMHO."


That seems to be the case for me as well. The only thing I've noticed that appears to be directly affected by the presense of the governor in his province is population loyalty--a general with high dread will improve a province's loyalty as long as he's in it.

[Magraev]

In response to Appletons post I have to say that though most of the advice is good, I disagree with nr. 6. Auto-tidy makes your armies more manageable, especially if you're new to the game.

I usually use auto-tax, auto-assign governors and auto building. This doesn't mean that I don't take a hand in governors and buildings - I do, but I often forgot to assign a governor if the old one fell in battle, or I forgot to build in my provinces. This eliminates some of my worries...

I'd definately start in easy. In normal you are faced with a stiff challenge in avoiding civil war and winning battles. Hard and above are for machocists...

[ShadesPanther]

if you use the shift key it shows provinces loyalty which is handy for a quick start of year scan.

I think that the English is quite harder than it says. When i first started i ran out of money and it is really hard to not run out of money before trade kicks in.

[Crash]

Play the Byzantine, they don't run out of money, no Pope to deal with, lots of great units, always have good generals and leaders, and already have a citadel at Constantinople. If you can't win with the Byz, you can't play MTW.

And yeah, don't play on Easy, start with Normal. Hard is better than Easy, and it's really not that hard.

[Inigo Montoya]

Well, if you've read this far, you must be very interested in this thread - which means you are either a rookie like me, or a seasoned veteran getting ready to post some more advice. I should have made it more clear that I know absolutely nothing about the Total War games - nor have I played many games even remotely like this (other than Civilization 1 & 2). So starting on Normal was a little too much for me to handle. I ended up combining several suggestions (all of which were good) and played the Spanish on Easy because
1. They start with only two provinces to manage.
2. You can grab a few more provinces quickly.
3. You don't have to worry about rebellions/attacks so much
4. It gave me an opportunity to learn how to manage the finances and play around with different building strategies
5. Since I didn't have to deal with "global strategy" so much, I could spend a lot of time and effort with local management. It took me quite a while to figure out exactly how to keep my country running - lots of little things you do affect lots of other things.

Every time I started a game on Normal, I would take a couple of provinces and then almost immediately have a rebellion - or I would go broke trying to send in enough troops to prevent a rebellion. So I found the Easy setting to be very educational.

Next, I played a Normal game with the English. The difference in play is extreme, IMO - you have to spend a lot of your time thinking more "big-picture" thoughts. However, if I hadn't played through the Easy game, all of it would have added up to way too many things to try to learn and manage at the same time.

The first few times I tried to play the game, I chose Normal difficulty, and I found the game more frustrating than fun. Now that I've got at least a marginal clue of what's going on, I can at least appreciate why my Englishmen are getting their collective asses kicked - even if I might not be able to completely enjoy it. At least this time, I feel like I can rally my nation and lead them to dominance, whereas in the past I just mainly felt irritated that I couldn't figure out what to do.


If you're just starting out with these games, I would really advise you to play at least once on Easy setting with some group that doesn't have many provinces to manage. The learning curve on this game is huge - and there are really several learning curves (finances, buildings, battle, etc.) Trying to take it all on at once can be overwhelming, and you end up wanting to give up on a game that is very much worth the effort it takes to learn.

[Portuguese Rebel]

I started out at normal, but then again, most things were STW revisited... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Don't worry Inigo, you will get the hang of it soon, we will make a general out of you yet http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[HopAlongBunny]

Starting on Easy is a good choice IMO. Lets you see how most of the game mechanics work, and work together. I never played STW so a lot of this was new http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If you want to see it ALL and see it NOW; play your first Normal game with 2 "helpers". The cheat .deadringer. gives you easy money and plenty of it. Its partner .workonsundays. builds structures (any structure) in 1 turn. If you do this, and stay analytical in your approach to the game, you will learn a lot in a very short amount of time.

The above advice will do absolutely nothing for you on the field of battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Yoko Kono]

try playing as the hungarians and learn how to use cav effectively with them
take modovia and tech towards skekely and avar nobles
build armies with 2 nobles and 4 szekely and 2 jobbagy and you can learn great skirmishe hit and run tactics and with a bit of practise its easy to defeat 800 man armies with several spear units using this small army setup even on expert - the ai just doesnt seem to cope well with skirmishing cav armies
in the end you will LOVE cav