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Old Bald Guy
07-09-2003, 11:55
MTW:VI is the only game I've played in the past two months. The more I play, the more I like it. This game has incredible replay value. I started playing GA games, High period. When I've gotten all I can wring out of the High period, I'll start playing GA Late. That's a LONG run for a game.

However, the more I play, the more things I find that frustrate me and make me wish I could fix. More GA goals, for one. More diplomacy, for another. More use for princesses, princes, spys and assasins. More ways to win the game, ala Civ 3 did over Civ 2. The list would go on and on.

Recently, I read an interview with two Valve developers who have been working on Half Life 2 for the past five years. I'm so psyched to get this game. However, it also frustrates me to no end. They listened to their customers and are putting all the things we loved about HL into HL2. More interaction with Barney and the scientists. No portal jumping. More, more, more of the things that made HL the best FPS ever made, and I don't even like FPS games.

Would that CA listen to us in the same way. What a great game we could make, huh?

Sorry to go on, mates, but I really do love this game so much and I'm just so damned frustrated. It's just soooooo close to perfect.

ToranagaSama
07-09-2003, 16:21
Can you post a link to that interview?

Mount Suribachi
07-09-2003, 16:34
Also with HL, Valve hung onto the game for 6 months after Sierra wanted to release it. They knew it was good, but they wanted to make it *perfect*. They didn't release it till it was ready, really ready. They could have released it 6 months earlier of course, and it would still have been a great game...but it wouldn't have been the all-time classic it has become. Unlike MTW which was released before it was ready and is a work of flawed greatness instead...

Galestrum
07-09-2003, 18:16
hoorah

Gregoshi
07-09-2003, 19:53
I don't know how many there are, but I do know that there are features in MTW that were discussed in these forums. Examples:

1) In custom battles & MP, you can change the appearance of a faction to distinguish two players that pick the same faction. This was a problem in WE/MI with the Mongol era MP battles.

2) The battle replay feature.

3) This isn't a specific MTW example, but WE/MI changed the way reinforcements came on the battlefied (multiple locations) from STW (one location). MTW refined this even more (rally point).

4) The pre-battle screen with save-between-battles is a big one from VI.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. CA is here and they are listening. Giljay has stated before that they have a file of ideas taken from this and other forums.

Empress_Zoe
07-09-2003, 20:00
With all due respect, we shall see.

Listening is only one part of it im afraid, acting is the second.

but i agree totally with bald guy, I love MTW, but it was certainly rushed and the GA system could be brilliant with more work.

Satyr
07-09-2003, 22:06
You know, I just don't see how you people think that MTW was rushed? It had so few bugs, mostly with older video cards, and it had MANY, MANY new things over and above Shogun. I think it is the closest to a perfect game that I have played since Starcraft. And if you have been following all the talk about Rome, it sounds like almost all of what we have asked for will be in there.

But of course, nothing will keep people from whinging. Too bad. CONGRATULATIONS CA AND THANKS

Old Bald Guy
07-09-2003, 22:16
Sadly, I can't find the interview with the Valve developers, anywhere. I was surfing seriptiously at work. Bummin'.

And, as far as issues with video cards, Ace's Hardware site tested several mb/cpu/video card combinations with several games, including MTW, and found MTW gets more out of a cpu upgrade than video.

ToranagaSama
07-09-2003, 23:04
Quote[/b] (Empress_Zoe @ July 09 2003,15:00)]With all due respect, we shall see.

Listening is only one part of it im afraid, acting is the second.

but i agree totally with bald guy, I love MTW, but it was certainly rushed and the GA system could be brilliant with more work.
Sir, I don't know how long you've been around the Total War camp, but CA needs to be defended and the record set straight.

CA DOES NOT RUSH TOTAL WAR, in the manner you've observed other developers to do.

However, CA does, apparently, adhere to a strict developmental timetable.

Excepting the initial release of Shogun, I believe CA has NEVER missed a release date. Any experienced gamer should appreciate this fact ad infinitum

Additionally, extremely few, if any, parts of a Total War game have ever been released *broken*. The 56 Year bug, is the worst case example through 2 Releases, 2 Add-Ons, and 2 or 3 patches. KUDOS to The Creative Assembly.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

Alright, alright, [TS may have gotten slightly carried away] thinking on the above, I add the caveate, that the above fully applies to the SP part of our Community. The MPers might have some *minor* exception. You know how those people are. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I, personally, admire the fact that they make their release dates. CA's Project Manager does an excellent job in this respect.

Rushed games are those released by the Publisher/Developer, knowingly, broken or incomplete.

[TS, can't resist the following dig at CA:]

[Technically,] Shogun WAS released incomplete, as it was and is missing the Multiplay Campaign feature that was announced prior to release and, IMMEDIATELY, promised after release. Still waiting....

That said, CA has NEVER released a broken or incomplete game. They have, like every game developer, released "imperfect" games. Sa la vie

---

Thanks for the effort, OBG. Post the links when you have em, now I've got to find Ace's Hardware....

Oaty
07-10-2003, 02:35
Quote[/b] ][Technically,] Shogun WAS released incomplete, as it was and is missing the Multiplay Campaign feature that was announced prior to release and, IMMEDIATELY, promised after release. Still waiting....


Well I can understand that part a campaign would be very difficult to finish online. I have played shogun the board game a long time ago. Since it was such a long time ago I can't remember if the board was exactly like the strategy map or not for shogun total war. I do belive that it is not the same as hasbro interactive owns the rights to the board game and I'm pretty sure CA and Hasbro did not make a deal or one that was accepted since they do have some competition against each other. I can say though it was that board game is what led me to buy this game. Basically not do I only get to strategically command the map, I can throw out the dice and command the battles myself.

Think about the time it takes to play the battles to dominate all of Japan. Imagine how unpopular it would be when someone puts aside 1 day that they have off play the game, the game is going good but neither side is decisive in victory of Japan and they lag out. All that time spent for spent for a good total war game and blam nothing. The only way it would be feasible is to auto resolve all battles ( boring &#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. Now I can say that auto resolve does give a fair calculation 50 percent of the time and I have tested it out but out of that other 50 percent, 25 percent is just not even close to what would happen in the battle and I could just see how many people would get peed off that battles that should not have been won by the opponent.

All I can say I almost gurauntee that there is just about no chance I'd play the campaign or would anyone else because of other players leaving just when it started getting good and the fact of trying to get that saved game started back up again at a set time

Magraev
07-10-2003, 06:55
To me there are 4 kinds of scenarios:

1) near perfect game, great support. I don't know any examples of this (maybe Blizzard?). From a publisher point of view it would seem kinda wasteful though we fans would love it.

2) very flawed game, great support. Examples include the champion manager series, where they are pumping out patches (4 for the latest version) to repair an almost unplayable original.

3) near perfect game, poor support. I'd have to put MTW:VI in this category. I don't find the game unplayable as it is, but I would sure appreciate a fix for the obvious bugs.

4) very flawed game, poor support. Luckily I don't have any examples of this either (some mentioned disneys games, but I don't know any).

This would make a nice matrix, but I'd probably get it wrong so I won't attemt it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

The conclusion is that we have nothing major to complain about, but CA could score some easy points with us if they released a patch (soon).

ToranagaSama
07-10-2003, 17:19
Quote[/b] (oaty @ July 09 2003,21:35)]
Quote[/b] ][Technically,] Shogun WAS released incomplete, as it was and is missing the Multiplay Campaign feature that was announced prior to release and, IMMEDIATELY, promised after release. Still waiting....


Well I can understand that part a campaign would be very difficult to finish online.


Dude, I intend in now way to be offensive, but BULLSHIT

I don't want to here it Cause I heard it all before, ad infinitum.

It's too hard, it's too difficult, it'll take too long, not too many people will pay for it, blah...blah...blah...blah....

In the first place, the reason we don't have CMP, is that the CA made the oversight (trying to be Politically Correct http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) of NOT initiating the "design" for CMP at the outset of coding. Consequently, they finished the code, then tried to implement CMP. Duh

In the second place, the "Powers That Be", are of the mindset that CMP won't be popular and profitable enough to justify the expenditure of resources. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

In the third place---THERE SHOULD BE NO EXCUSES---Rome should have CMP http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Why? For the same reason that Total War was initially concepted to have Campaign MP WHAT, CA, may I ask has changed to alter the games original conceptualization?

Integrity,

1. Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.
2. Soundness.
3. Completeness; unity.

{The American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Ed.}

[TS, is just wondering if they have dictionaries in Littlehampton. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif ]

oaty, unfortunately, the Org's archives do not go back far enough, otherwise you could do a search and find numerous threads in which the feasability of CMP has been hashed, thrashed, and dashed to death. Sorry, just not interested in another go round of, how, why, if. It's got nothing to do with you.

Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Have Fun

---

Tosa or somebody, if ever you find yourself stromming thru the archive backups, do me a favor and keep an eye out for a thread I started regarding CMP. I and one of the ole timers got into a discussion conceptualizing the manner in which a Multiplay Campaign might function. I forget who it was, but I do recall he just about Hijacked my thread, inadvertently of course. It contains some EXTREMELY large posts with VERY good ideas. GJS posted too, I believe. Anyway, if you do happen to run across the thread, I would appreciate it greatly if you would email it to me, as I neglected to save it. Sorry, I don't recall the title, but I believe it was posted *after* the org was moved to the Telefragged host. THANKS in advance

ToranagaSama
07-10-2003, 18:09
Quote[/b] ]Think about the time it takes to play the battles to dominate all of Japan. Imagine how unpopular it would be when someone puts aside 1 day that they have off play the game, the game is going good but neither side is decisive in victory of Japan and they lag out

First, I don't know about you, but it takes *me* weeks to finish a campaign; AND its already been establish that the MAJORITY of players do not finish the majority of their campaigns, yet they still find enjoyment in the game. In MP it would be no different.

Second, there have been many solutions suggested for EVERY issue you raise.

Third, I, personally, conceptualized a game "World", in which a Campaign may be initiated and players can come and go at their leisure, while the Campaign continues. I am not going to expand further, as I'm already talking too much about a sore topic, but its not at all necessary for the Campaign to *finish* with the players that started.

VERY simply put, a Campaign would be independant of the players. Much in the way that *Life* is indpendent of its participants. People live, people die, people come, people go, but Life goes on just the same. The Campaign would be much the same.

The problem with most people's viewpoint of CMP, as is yours, is that their viewpoint is simply too narrow. You gotta think out of the box


Quote[/b] ]All I can say I almost gurauntee that there is just about no chance I'd play the campaign or would anyone else because of other players leaving just when it started getting good....

Lastly, I simply disdain those who mindlessly seek to impose there likes, dislikes and preference upon EVERYONE It speaks of a mindset that thinks EVERYONE is like them Narrow mindset, narrow viewpoint.

Reagarding "lag", when you're playing "Turn-Based" how would lag be an issue? The issue of "lag" would apply ONLY to "Real-Time", and...ahhh...I believe they already have that figured out for the most part.

Syncing is more the issue.

Fortunately, there are those, like myself, who WOULD play CMP. In any event, the general solution to the "time" issue is to have a manner of "Time-Limitation". Similar to Chess, players could be on the "Clock".

Last comment, the manner in which a CMP community would develop is unknown, I speculate that *most* CMPers would not Campaign with random strangers, but with friends, Clan members, or acquaintences of a similar mind. For example, it is unlikely that *I* would choose to Campaign with you, because your comments belie a lack of commitment to the game. Additionally, a system of player "Matching" could be devised and implented.

Sir, all your comments have a negative tone and speak of how a thing *cannot* be done. I do not wish to deal with the negative. I choose to deal in the positive, and how a thing *can* be done.

Have a nice day http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Lehesu
07-10-2003, 18:15
Hey, we don't know how good Half Life 2 will be, as it is not out yet. Hype is not all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I'm not saying it is going to be bad, but it amuses me that people will say that Rome TW will be a bug ridden corpse of a game before it comes out, but than believe a game like Half-Life 2 will be the savior of FPS. Predictions at that level are a tad premature.

Mount Suribachi
07-10-2003, 20:25
Quote[/b] (Lehesu @ July 10 2003,18:15)]Hey, we don't know how good Half Life 2 will be, as it is not out yet. Hype is not all. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif I'm not saying it is going to be bad, but it amuses me that people will say that Rome TW will be a bug ridden corpse of a game before it comes out, but than believe a game like Half-Life 2 will be the savior of FPS. Predictions at that level are a tad premature.
Confucious say "Learn the past and you shall know the future"

RisingSun
07-10-2003, 22:52
ToranagaSama, that post was totally flame-ridden. I found it offensive, because of the numerous points in which you spoke in a condescending manner, and seemed to fashion yourself and the like-minded high above anyone with a difference of opinion. You speak of disliking it when people try to impose things on you, when you are doing the exact same. You are rendering yourself a hippocrat, my friend.

ToranagaSama
07-11-2003, 08:20
BTW, *which* post are you speaking about? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif and precisely what about it you find offensive and condescending?

I suppose you're talking about the CMP post, correct?

And away we go....

I suggest that you re-read and re-think the above posts.

I find it offensive when a person attempts to superimpose their impressions and experiences upon EVERYONE else in a conclusionary manner that seeks to characterize the impressions and opinions of ALL others.

If---one does not seek to do such, then one should choose their words more carefully. In the event, one fails to do so, I present to you two quotes for contemplation:

"If you do not know history, then you are doomed to repeat it."

and,

"If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the Kitchen." or the flames will get ya....

---

The fact of the matter is that the poster did not bring up a single point that has not been discussed previously 2 or 3 DOZEN times over the history of Total War; nor did he present any *new* thoughts. Sooo, ahhh, what was the point?

What I found exasperating about the post was its, seeming, naiveté, as well as its, conjunctive, summative, and supercilious *absolutism*. Which was NOT presented as "opinion", but as FACTUAL REALITY Get it?

YOU may feel as you wish, but *I* have no concern as to hypocracy, as anyone who engages in such opinionated absolutism is, indeed, worthy of condescenion and patronization.

Flame-ridden? Perhaps, though clearly within the forum rules. Offended you were, should I http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ?

Condescending? No, the posts were "dismissive" and intended to be so, the same as is this one.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[TS, wonders if he is the only one smelling smoke....]

Monk
07-11-2003, 19:53
Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ July 10 2003,12:19)]Tosa or somebody, if ever you find yourself stromming thru the archive backups, do me a favor and keep an eye out for a thread I started regarding CMP. I and one of the ole timers got into a discussion conceptualizing the manner in which a Multiplay Campaign might function. I forget who it was, but I do recall he just about Hijacked my thread, inadvertently of course. It contains some EXTREMELY large posts with VERY good ideas. GJS posted too, I believe. Anyway, if you do happen to run across the thread, I would appreciate it greatly if you would email it to me, as I neglected to save it. Sorry, I don't recall the title, but I believe it was posted *after* the org was moved to the Telefragged host. THANKS in advance
hmmm, well im not a Mod but i do remember that post. IIRC wasnt it Kreallin( sp? sorry dude...for the moment i cant remember how ur name is spelled ) or sombody like him with whome you were discusing the possiblity of a CMP for Rome? wow we need that post again, reading that actually made a CMP sound possible. it was atleast 3 months ago, i wish it was still around. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif anyhow my point is that i think a CMP can be pulled off, if we had guys like u giving the devs ideas (for a CMP atleast http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Mount Suribachi
07-11-2003, 20:23
I gotta agree with Rising Sun TS, I find your posts in this thread extrememly aggressive, not what I would expect from you. You dismiss other peoples *OPINIONS* (as you are at pains to point out), because you claim to have established *THE FACT* that TW CMP is totally viable. I think that is why RS called you a hypocrite.

khurjan
07-11-2003, 21:20
hey peeps lets cool it down no need t oget flaming on this forum..this forum has reputation to maintain

and only half life 2 interview i came across was this

http://www.trepid.net/interviews/2003-06-13-gabenewell.shtml

Gregoshi
07-12-2003, 05:54
To Toranaga:


Quote[/b] ]I find it offensive when a person attempts to superimpose their impressions and experiences upon EVERYONE else in a conclusionary manner that seeks to characterize the impressions and opinions of ALL others.


Is that comment of yours directed at Rising Sun's post or your own? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The problem is that you have derailed your own arguments by the tone you've chosen in your posts. You have shifted focus away from the issue to that of how you presented your views on the issue.

Anyway, on to specific points you raised:


Quote[/b] ]In the first place, the reason we don't have CMP, is that the CA made the oversight (trying to be Politically Correct ) of NOT initiating the "design" for CMP at the outset of coding. Consequently, they finished the code, then tried to implement CMP. Duh


How do you know this? I ask because you state later in that same post:


Quote[/b] ]
For the same reason that Total War was initially concepted to have Campaign MP

So between concept and post-coding, CA completely ignored CMP? I doubt that. From what I can put together based on what CA has said, the design for CMP proved unworkable and this wasn't determined until STW engine was too far along in development to go back and re-work the whole thing.


Quote[/b] ]In the second place, the "Powers That Be", are of the mindset that CMP won't be popular and profitable enough to justify the expenditure of resources.

How did CA arrive at this mindset?

Last note, it is not oaty's fault that you are sick and tired of discussing the issues around CMP, therefore it was uncalled for to take it out on him.

Last, last note http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif in case any think I'm a "nay-sayer", let me state that I'd love to see a CMP for the TW series. I also think it could be done utilizing many of the ideas stated by Toranaga, Krae and others.

Be cool ladies and gentlemen, and let's have a nice discussion.

barocca
07-12-2003, 09:30
Where are CA going on the path of MP Campaign? we don't know, and they aren't telling - quite possibly it is being investigated, but they will not admit that, (possibly)just in case such proves unworkable,

In my honest opinion the only feasable online MP campaign would be a "come and go" campaign,
where a player can join an ongoing game, seizing control of an AI faction, and where a player can retire (and his "king" die, along with all the penalties that may apply in that situation).

The drawbacks to such a campaign?
It needs a "host" to remain "running" on,
and what do players do at the end of a turn if they have no battles to fight? you can only 'manage' your empire for so long, considering some of my battles involve up to 32 units of re-inforcements and take up to 2 hours to play...and sometimes i have 2 or more such battles in a turn...

I think the feasability of an online MP campaign comes down to what to do with players who have no battles to fight at the end of a turn...

TosaInu
07-12-2003, 10:30
*after* the org was moved to the Telefragged host

The org is hosted by TeleFragged since about november 2000.
I guess you mean that it was started in this Ikonboard forum?

I'm, since a couple of months, working on converting, importing, restoring and merging all topics ever posted and saved in back-ups (that includes all UBB topics). I'm currently working on a March 2003 backup. Don't know when this will be finished, nor am I sure yet about what to do next. Importing the entire thing in this board has cons and pros, installing it as second read only forum has cons and pros.

Kraellin
07-12-2003, 15:07
Quote[/b] ]Tosa or somebody, if ever you find yourself stromming thru the archive backups, do me a favor and keep an eye out for a thread I started regarding CMP. I and one of the ole timers got into a discussion conceptualizing the manner in which a Multiplay Campaign might function. I forget who it was, but I do recall he just about Hijacked my thread, inadvertently of course. It contains some EXTREMELY large posts with VERY good ideas. GJS posted too, I believe. Anyway, if you do happen to run across the thread, I would appreciate it greatly if you would email it to me, as I neglected to save it. Sorry, I don't recall the title, but I believe it was posted *after* the org was moved to the Telefragged host. THANKS in advance

toranaga,

sadly, that post seems to be one of those that got lost completely during the old ubb board days. i've looked through all the posts in here that got transferred to the new board and i've looked through the archives as well and cant find it. it was a very good thread, and yes, it was me that hijacked the thread ;)

after having looked for that old thread and seeing a couple new ones that discussed a multiplayer campaign, i finally just re-wrote up most of my ideas for a cmp and posted them in the new one. i believe the current cmp thread is in the entrance hall and covers most of what i was talking about in the old thread.

there was also another thread where amp and i were discussing ideas for the game. i cant find that one either and it had a lot of very good ideas in it as well. or maybe that was all part of that same thread, i forget.

since that time, we've gotten this nice new board and things are much easier to back up and fewer things like this get lost, thanks to tosa's diligence. he's almost as much of a packrat as i am ;)

if i do ever find that old thread, i'll post the entire thing somewhere. it was a fun thread.

K.

Empress_Zoe
07-13-2003, 17:44
To ToranageSame.

Madam,

Im glad you think that, it is your opinion, and like butts, everyone has one.

I too like Shogun(game and Novel by Clavell), and one day hopefully we can meet in battle with shogun and then you will see what a woman can do, no Sekigahara here, and i will not be 'firmly planted in the earth' either. I actually think that the prophecy of the Chinese Soothsayer will come true for your namesake instead....

Say what you will about CA, Not only do they provide virtually non existant support for this bugged game, someone from their department even had the arrogance to pop in here and slander one of our members without caring a wit to address the concerns for a patch.

Please don't be offended by what i say about a company, history shows us that this is needed on an all too frequent basis to keep them honest, and as more and more companies merge under smaller amounts of conglomerates, see how easy it will be then to voice your opinion.