Mameluks and Turks For Napoleonic MOD

[LeBob]

To everybody,

does anybody have info on the composition of the armies for the mameluks and ottoman empire during the napoleonic wars?
We (the lords) would like to incorporate them in the mod but are lacking the units....

thanks

Lord Le Bob.

[Shahed]

I'll get to work on it.

I can tell you already that Mamluk cavalry should be an elite, fiercely disciplined cavalry armed with swords, in Napeoleon's armies.

[Shahed]

In the meantime I can offer information presented in this thread on the Turks. the Sipahi of the Porte description should be a good stasrting point for that unit:

Muslim Units (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=6420;st=75)

I will report back within the next few days.

I hope you are considering special artillery unique to the Ottomans. They loved to have the largest guns http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Also I can suggest a unit called Zerli Nefer, basically a standard shock troop. We can also do some small-ish, Janissary assualt squads, armed with multiple weapons, for VERY hazardous duty. Typically these attack squads were all volunteers and selected for their skills. One man may excel in archery and firearms, another in explosives and sapping, another in swordsmanship. Due to the game restrictions we could give them an axe and musket, for example. This is just a brief off the top of my head intro.

I Look forward to contibuting to this, and hope my input will be appreciated and used. I'll be back with more details.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[LeBob]

that is great,

Your contribution is already appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and we will definetely use all the info we found
thanks a lot

[Shahed]

Oh please dont forget hand canoneers, the napoleonic bazooka men. Exclusive to the turks IIRC. Gimme till Monday to write up and research.

[Lord De Moray]

There is very little info on the ottoman empire, you'll get all the uniform stuff and units types in the osprey book, but as for the numbers of these troops engaged there is little. I do know that at one point they tried to organise a regular army such as the European's but this was very poor indeed. If you'll really stuck I can find out a lot more but time is tight.

P.S take care to get the period right when dealing with turks and ottomans, not much changed over time but what did makes a hugh difference.

Regards,

De Moray

[Lord De Moray]

Quote[/b] (SeljukSinan @ July 10 2003,07:13)]I can tell you already that Mamluk cavalry should be an elite, fiercely disciplined cavalry armed with swords, in Napeoleon's armies.
The mamluk's, don't forget that they were wasted by regular French infantry. They were very brave, and stupid. The 1 squadron (only 125 sabres) of mamluk's attached to the 5 squadrons of the Chasseurs a Cheval of the Guard were for the main part French men in the right dress.

Napoleon liked the idea and took it home with him.

Was Napoleons' body guard Roustan not a mamluk?

Regards,

De Moray

[LeBob]

That is right...
Napoleon said that 1 mamluke was worthing 2 french soldiers...

[LeBob]

Here is a short article about Ottoman artillery...

http://www.magweb.com/sample/sdra/sdr12gun.htm

Lord Le Bob

[Shahed]

Yes that is a nice short article.
BTW can you tell me the time frame for the units already in the Nap Mod, please ?

This will help me stick to the same period for the colonial and Muslim troops. If there are troops from more than one period let me know as well, so I can add some fun troops as suggestions.

[LeBob]

The period is (about) from 1789 to 1830 or so...

[LeBob]

bump bump bump

[LeBob]

Here are some info about these armies that I found on the web...

"
The Ottoman Empire of the Napoleonic wars is really an enigma. An odd mixture of modern and medieval forces it struggled through internecine strife while engaging external enemies (England, France, Russia, USA) at the same time throughout the Napoleonic wars.

Infantry Rating

Sultan's Guard Inf. Elite
Janissary Elite/Regular
Nizam-I-Jedid Regular
Sekhan Regular/Militia
Fellahin Militia
Derbent Militia

The Nizam-I-Jedid (New Order Army) were the result of the Sultan Selim's efforts to modernize, and Westernize, the army. The were good troops, but there were simply not enough of them to go round. Selim's reforms were further frustrated by the refusal of the Jannissaries to sit by and watch their power slip away. Not only did they effectively stop the modernisation, they ultimately removed Selim's head from his shoulders for his troubles. By this time the Jannissaries abilities had degraded somewhat and not all should be considered elite. The Sekhan infantry were semi-permanent troops raised by provincial governors and some were very good troops (easily the equal of the Jannisseries) while others were very, very bad. The Fellahin and Derbent troops should be thought of as an armed mob (much like hooligans really) as opposed to soldiers.

Cavalry Rating

Sultan=s Guard Cav. Elite - Med, Lance
Suvarileri Elite - Med, Lance
Sipahi Regular - Med, Lance
Mameluk Regular - Lt
Yoruk Militia, Lt, Sk
Djelli Regular, Lt, Sk Pr
Arabic Militia, Lt, Sk Pr

Ottoman cavalry had a proud, if somewhat antiquated, battlefield heritage. Individually, they were superb horsemen and warriors, but their main limitation was the lack of discipline and cohesiveness in the charge. In Egypt the mameluks essentially ruled autonomously until finally brought to heel by Istanbul in 1811 in a particularly brutish campaign.

Artillery Rating

Topiji Heavy Foot Regular, 12 pdr equivalent
Topiji Medium Foot Regular, 8 pdr
Topiji Light Foot Regular, 6 pdr

The top-arbaleri gun wagons did not see service during this period. The Topiji also served as the Army=s engineers. The Ottomans have no horse artillery.


only the Nizam-I-Jedid may use square formation.

Ottoman Army Composition
Ottoman armies originating in Europe/Asia (Balkans, Caucuses, Turkey, Middle East) had different troops than those raised in the semi-independent provinces of North Africa (Egypt and Tripoli). In the chart below it shows which army may have certain types of troops. Note that the Ottoman troops who invaded Egypt originated from Europe/Asia, and so would use that table.

Unit Type Europe/Asia N. Africa
Janissary Yes Yes1
Sultan=s Guard Inf.Yes No
Nizam-I-Jedid Yes Yes1
Sekhan Yes Yes
Fellahin No Yes
Derbent No Yes
Suvarileri Yes No
Sultan's Guard Cav.Yes No
Sipahis Yes Yes
Mameluks No Yes
Yoruks Yes Yes
Djellis Yes No
Arabic Cav. Yes Yes
Topiji Heavy Foot Yes No
Topiji Medium Foot Yes Yes
Topiji Light Foot

oF COURSE we will not put all of them but this will probably the starting list from where we will move on....

Lord Le Bob

[Gregoshi]

LeBob, new patron mahmut80 has the following information for you posted in the Entrance Hall:

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This topic is for: The Dungeon » Mamluks and Turks For Napoleonic MOD.
hi Lebob,I'm from Istanbul.thanks for your carefully investigation:)
I think I can give you some tips.
first the word "suvarileri" is wrong,it must be "suvariler" (means cavalry)
because the "i" in turkish means something like similar "of" in english.
I think the mameluks must be as mamluks??they were the same soldiers that we know from mtw.
and Sultan=s Guard ,whats the meaning of "=" in here ,I didnt understand?.it must be ' perhaps?
"sekhan" is "sekban" in turkish ,I think it must be smth. like
"sekbhan" in english
sekbhans were the hunters of sultan in the mediewal period and then they were
Sultan Selims' new army.
the janisseries were not elite at this times(1750-1826). they became like bandits at napoleonic period
and then they were abandoned (1826-Mahmud II) because of their disobey.
the nizam-ı cedid were the elite infantry of turkish army.the janisseries were famous in the
1400-1650 period,because they weren't feudal,they were proffesional and getting money for making war,
traning everytime,like the roman legionarries.
and also their islamic faith helped them for motivating.
the janisseries in the nap period were called "Hassa riflemen" they were professional riflemen.
the info pics and textures of janisseries infantry don't fit the real ones.the janissery archers
and jan heavy inf. are more like the janissaries.
you know at this period the almohads,egyptians,greeks,hungarians,polish(lehs) were minor factions
living in the ottoman empire at the beginning of the nap period.
I think you can use the textures of neg inf for some african slave units.(North Africa)
some units like the ghazi infantry would be ok for militias.but using swords not axes.
and turkmen foot soldiers are ideal for yoruks(they were from turkmenistan).Heavy maces(really heavy,I saw one of them in the museum&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
were very famous in turkish armies for piercing armour and the armour wearer also.
and you can use Sipahis of the porte,they were called as "Akincilar".Only in Europe,
they were elite like special forces of today,not the bodyguards of sultan as we saw in the mtw.
I didn't hear anything about Djellis,Fellahin,Zerli Nefer.what do they look like ?I think fellahins are arab.
and I know nefer means soldier.
the nizam-ı cedid fought against napoleon and others,they were disciplined and were real good in riflemen class,but they were few in number
so they didn't have much success.
you know about the horsemen,they were very brave and stupid ,De Moray said.
this is because of their fanatical faith, their desire for fighting,winning and dying in the way of Allah.
this is not for only the mamluks ,for all islamic units.
In my opi. don't use the janisseries as elite,they can be regular inf for the beginning of camp.
the nizam-ı cedid should be the elite inf. and the sekbhans can be the middle ones.
sorry but I don't have much inf about this period.
but perhaps I can help you for the order sounds that you will use in the battle map.if I can find my micr.
when will you finish your mod? and I think it must be about 15-20 mb ,that everyone can download it.and do you have a beta version for previewing?
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