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mahmut80
07-15-2003, 12:21
This topic is for: The Dungeon » Mamluks and Turks For Napoleonic MOD.
hi Lebob,I'm from Istanbul.thanks for your carefully investigation:)
I think I can give you some tips.
first the word suvarileri is wrong,it must be suvariler (means cavalry)
because the i in turkish means something like similar of in english.
I think the mameluks must be as mamluks??they were the same soldiers that we know from mtw.
and Sultan=s Guard ,whats the meaning of = in here ,I didnt understand?.it must be ' perhaps?
sekhan is sekban in turkish ,I think it must be smth. like
sekbhan in english
sekbhans were the hunters of sultan in the mediewal period and then they were
Sultan Selims' new army.
the janisseries were not elite at this times(1750-1826). they became like bandits at napoleonic period
and then they were abandoned (1826-Mahmud II) because of their disobey.
the nizam-ı cedid were the elite infantry of turkish army.the janisseries were famous in the
1400-1650 period,because they weren't feudal,they were proffesional and getting money for making war,
traning everytime,like the roman legionarries.
and also their islamic faith helped them for motivating.
the janisseries in the nap period were called Hassa riflemen they were professional riflemen.
the info pics and textures of janisseries infantry don't fit the real ones.the janissery archers
and jan heavy inf. are more like the janissaries.
you know at this period the almohads,egyptians,greeks,hungarians,polish(lehs) were minor factions
living in the ottoman empire at the beginning of the nap period.
I think you can use the textures of neg inf for some african slave units.(North Africa)
some units like the ghazi infantry would be ok for militias.but using swords not axes.
and turkmen foot soldiers are ideal for yoruks(they were from turkmenistan).Heavy maces(really heavy,I saw one of them in the museum&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
were very famous in turkish armies for piercing armour and the armour wearer also.
and you can use Sipahis of the porte,they were called as Akincilar.Only in Europe,
they were elite like special forces of today,not the bodyguards of sultan as we saw in the mtw.
I didn't hear anything about Djellis,Fellahin,Zerli Nefer.what do they look like ?I think fellahins are arab.
and I know nefer means soldier.
the nizam-ı cedid fought against napoleon and others,they were disciplined and were real good in riflemen class,but they were few in number
so they didn't have much success.
you know about the horsemen,they were very brave and stupid ,De Moray said.
this is because of their fanatical faith, their desire for fighting,winning and dying in the way of Allah.
this is not for only the mamluks ,for all islamic units.
In my opi. don't use the janisseries as elite,they can be regular inf for the beginning of camp.
the nizam-ı cedid should be the elite inf. and the sekbhans can be the middle ones.
sorry but I don't have much inf about this period.
but perhaps I can help you for the order sounds that you will use in the battle map.if I can find my micr.
when will you finish your mod? and I think it must be about 15-20 mb ,that everyone can download it.and do you have a beta version for previewing?

Gregoshi
07-16-2003, 04:31
mahmut, welcome to the Org. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif Big thanks too for the contribution to the Nap mod.

If you check out the last page or two of the Nap mod post pinned to the top of the Dungeon forum, you will see a link to site/forum supporting the development of the Nap mod.

mahmut80
07-16-2003, 10:02
thanks, I'll do it.
take care.

Shahed
07-16-2003, 11:23
Merhaba Mahmut. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I think you will be getting a good discussion going here. Unfortunately I can't participate much but would appreciate greatly a disclosure of your sources for compling the above information.

Some of my general knowledge does disagee with parts of this post and I would like to read or view where you got this info from, in an effort to better understand your views.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Shahed
07-16-2003, 11:25
About sounds for orders WHOA

We can actually have some Turkish orders, at last http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

I have a list that I will try to locate.

LeBob
07-16-2003, 12:45
Thanks Mahmut,

Good info there. Like Seljuk, I have some contridactory info....From what I read, the New Model Army implemented by Selim III cost him his head since the janissary rebels against the new administration. Some Prussian advisors (as well as french) were training new army corps based on european style...I have a lot of info that I need to compile and put there (but it is in french so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

LLB

mahmut80
07-20-2003, 14:19
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
hi Le Bob , hi Sinan http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I can say with no doubt that you clearly have more knowledge than most Turks(and me) about Ottomans.
Thank you guys, for sharing your knowledge and giving your time.
you asked for my source, my source is my brain:)
I know these things from my childhood ,I really liked to read history books,encyclopaedias,watching hist. movies when I was a kid.
I only tried to mention smth. you know the word suvarileri means cavalry.but the i means nothing at the end.
suvari means cavalryman (singular) and suvariler means cavalry (plural) .I see that you use turkish pronounciation of the words,
(like Topijis) than we can use suvaris (plural) for the cavalry.
Sinan, I read your post in Muslim Units' link.I can't believe how much you know about this.and I nearly began to think that you are turkish
or a student in turkish history class or smt like that.
you say,the Suvarileri were the elite Sipahi, professional soldiers.
Actually the term sipahi was the common word for the all horsemen in ottomans.
some of them were feudal (timarli sipahi) ,and some of them were professional(Capou-Kouli sipahi)
and Serden Geckti or, earlier the Sipahi of the Porte were the elite sipahi named as Akincilar in turkish.
and all the sipahi corps were abandoned in 1826 .After this date there were only the
suvariler that learned from Prussia and other countries. (Encyclopaedia Britannica)
yes suvari means horseman and it's a common word but the ottomans used the term sipahi for horseman and I don't know if they
used the term suvari before 1826.
I think suvari was a new term for the ottomans in 1800s.
I know that suvaris were using long cavalry swords and fighting like the european cavalry.And the suvari was abandoned after
the world warII.So we can call the suvaris as the new cavalry of turkish armies in early 1800s.
As you mentioned the ghazi infantry is a wrong term .And we can't call a unit as ghazi infantryman.because ghazi
means a warrior that had fought for Islam and his country.
Actually all the units of Almohads,egyptians and turkish must be named as ghazi.But at least we can call the ghazi infantry
as ghazis for making a small correction in the names.txt file:)
and I don't know if it's sekbhan or sekhan in english but I know it's sekban in turkish and I searched this word
in dictionaries,but all I found is nothing. they were the hunters of sultan in mediewal period and then they were
Sultan Selims' new army in the nap period.
perhaps I'm wrong about Hassa rifleman's period time.and the factions under the command of ottomans in this period.
but ,I think we are agree on other subjects.
Guys, I'm going to another city for my summer school exams this evening.I'll stay for 2 weeks,so take care until our next speech.
Bye