View Full Version : New Units : Real History
IMHO the Germans needed this new unit. They have so many threats in the early game and their cream units don't become available till later. So I was quite happy to see the Swabian Swordsmen. Man they rock, and look cool. I even notice the AI consistenlty does better as Germany in my campaigns now, instead of being swallowed up by the French all the time. Perhaps because of the Swabs?
I'm curious though does anyone know if there actually was a clan or folk of these people? And if so what became of them? They become absolved, wiped out or what? Trying to figure out why such an effective fighting force is only available in the Early era. Something happened? My searches on the net wasn't very helpful, maybe some history guru's know something about them.
More of mystery than I first thought.
This is all I found, but it does seem to suggest something doesn't it?
"In 1467, Talhoffer, a Swabian fencing instructor, produced a lavishly illustrated fechtbuch ("fight-book") with 270 illuminations demonstrating techniques for nearly every weapon in the medieval knight's arsenal, as well as techniques for judicial combats between nobles and between peasants. Although long available in German, this is the first English translation of his remarkable how-to. Profusely illustrated here in black and white the book offers freeze-frame instructions on medieval martial arts using swords, shields, poleaxes, daggers and wrestling, both on foot and on horseback."
You can actually buy this book.
Mega Dux Bob
07-15-2003, 19:44
I know during the Landsknetch period the Swabians were considered masters of the great sword. I've seen various references to the unit in VI in stuff like the Ospery men-at-arms books.
I like them, and used them extenisvely in my HRE campaign, but I have to disagree on some points.
First, in my campaigns, I have not seen the AI build even one unit of swordsmen. Maybe they run out of money before they are able to, I've noticed that they build the swordsmith but not the workshop usually, but even if they do get the workshop they don't build them. I even modded them to be available in high as well, but to no avail. I guess that the guidelines are not in favour of building them at the point that they can be built, since the HRE usually has masive wars on all fronts, civil wars, never has a navy, etc. Has anyone actually seen them in AI controlled armies?
Second, as for their looks, well, you don't want to zoom in too close, as you'll notice they look a bit weird in some aspects.....
Mmm. Strange too cause I thought the AI was better now at exploiting it's special units. It's not like it has to tech up insanely like for Lithuanian Cavalry or something. But I can't say I've actually seen them in any AI army, ever.
ShadesPanther
07-15-2003, 20:48
In my games the HRE get squished 50 turns in by the Poles and Franch and to a lesser extent Hungary who always sieze Austria then they all attack HRE as if they could smell weakness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
The game seems quite random for me. A few campaigns I've seen Germany eat up both Italy and the French. There was one where Hungry took all though.
Well this unit really helps. I never played Germany before VI. Well once or twice and was handed my ass brutally. Now though, there's little I have to worry about with a few units of Swabians in my armies. For an Early era unit, it's quite a murderer. They walk through MAA's.
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 15 2003,15:35)]Well this unit really helps. I never played Germany before VI. Well once or twice and was handed my ass brutally. Now though, there's little I have to worry about with a few units of Swabians in my armies. For an Early era unit, it's quite a murderer. They walk through MAA's.
For Early period, just grab either Sweden, Denmark or Norway and you'll have no problems whatsoever.
Hakonarson
07-18-2003, 05:31
I'm not sure what became of them - I suspect they were jsut absorbed into greater Germany over teh centuries.
However they came about because Swabian and Thuringian milites (= knights) were not considered very god horsemen in the dark ages, and often dismounted to fight on foot with 2-handed swords.
If you want to make sure the ai uses them, mod it so they get a valor bonus in swabia.
Easily done, and they really start pumping them out then.
Quote[/b] (Magraev @ July 18 2003,01:23)]If you want to make sure the ai uses them, mod it so they get a valor bonus in swabia.
Easily done, and they really start pumping them out then.
Actually, I did, but no swordsmen anywhere. Probably just a coincidence/unfavourable building conditions for the HRE in my games.
So, you actually did see them? Because, I don't see the Danes building landsmenn/huscarles/raiders either, so I'm getting a bit suspicious... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I've seen it. I can't be positive I didn't give them more buildings in swabia to get them started though...
I've seen landsmenn often too, probably bqz I usually give Denmark one or both of the scandinavian provinces to start with, so they can afford them.
As you can see I'm a compulsive modder. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
Mount Suribachi
07-18-2003, 11:28
I've come across them in my Almohad Kaliphate game. They absolutely annihilated my previously all conquering AUMs. They chewed through my generals unit like he wasn't there and before I knew it my entire army were running for their lives. All cos of 1 unit of SS.
I was impressed to say the least.
Well, the Swabs ought to kick butt in the Early period, since they have the same stats as Chiv MAA, without a shield, but with an AP bonus. I know in my mod, the only other infantry units with matching offensive stats are the Varangian Guards and Gothic Ft. Kns., and this is probably about right for the unmodded game, too.
Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ July 17 2003,23:31)]I'm not sure what became of them - I suspect they were jsut absorbed into greater Germany over teh centuries.
However they came about because Swabian and Thuringian milites (= knights) were not considered very god horsemen in the dark ages, and often dismounted to fight on foot with 2-handed swords.
Not sure I quite understand that, but its very interesting. So they were like minor nobility that preferred to dismount for battle? Think of anything more, I would love to hear it.
Well in northern europe, specifically Norway and Sweden, the common idea was that horses sucked for battles, so most people who could afford a horse just rode to the battle, dismounted, then fought at foot. I'm guessing these Swabians thought the same way.
GranCactus
07-21-2003, 06:39
I just ran across something in Norwich's history of the Normans in Sicily - the Pope has raised an army to try to expel the Norman from Italy, the core of which consists of 700 Swabian swordsmen.
"Successive Norman charges failed utterly to disrupt their ranks, and in the fighting which followed they wielded their two-handed swords with a courage and determination that the Normans had never encountered since they came to Italy."
Unfortunately for the Swabians, the rest of army is made up of weaker stuff, and they were killed to a man.
I forgot to mention: this is at Civitate in 1053.
Wicked. 700 men swinging two handed swords Must have looked pretty damn impressive.
GranCactus, anything else from that source?
Hurin_Rules
07-21-2003, 17:30
Ahh, the Civitate campaign. A fascinating and very influenctial battle. The Normans were even kind of embarrassed to have captured the pope-- I mean, you can't exactly slap handcuffs on the Supreme Pontiff
If anyone wants a bit more context, I suggest G. A. Loud's recent The Age of Robert Guiscard, pp. 118 ff. Not much detail, but he does mention the Swabian contingent.
GranCactus
07-21-2003, 17:55
Here's what I learned from Norwich:
-The Pope's army was crap except for the Swabians
-The Normans would probably have lost if the Pope's Byzantine allies had shown up in time
-Before the battle, the Normans wanted to negotiate, but the Swabians, who were described as being very tall and haughty, laughed at them
-The rest of the papal army ran off, but the Swabians refused to surrender and fought until they were all dead
-As Hurin_Rules mentioned, the Normans dropped to their knees in front of the captured Pope and asked forgiveness
-Civitate was excavated in the 1800s. They found a pile of skeletons with obvious wounds, many of which were more than six feet tall
Anyway, I've read Norwich's Byzantine history and loved it, and this is great too. I recommend both.
Quote[/b] (GranCactus @ July 21 2003,11:55)]-Before the battle, the Normans wanted to negotiate, but the Swabians, who were described as being very tall and haughty, laughed at them
-The rest of the papal army ran off, but the Swabians refused to surrender and fought until they were all dead
This is awesome. Are we lead to believe this was the last of the Swabians? Truly an epic ending if so.
Man, what I would pay for a time machine.
Emp. Conralius
07-21-2003, 18:33
The Swabian Swordsen are a great unit indeed. I onl have a small beef with their appearnce: their swords are so long that the troops wielding them appear to be on pogo-sticks Is there anywy we can change this?
Jacque Schtrapp
07-21-2003, 19:36
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 21 2003,08:48)]Wicked. 700 men swinging two handed swords Must have looked pretty damn impressive.
Facing 700 men wielding two-handed swords and no shields? Back off and shoot them full of arrows. Then you have 700 not so impressive pincushions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
LOL. Yup, every unit has a weakness.
It would appear that the sword graphic is kinda too long perhaps? You guys that have the beef with the graphic, it's when the unit is just standing there right?
I guess I didn't zoom in enough, didn't seem that bad. I always thought the Gallowglasses swords could have used some more length. [But hey, who doesn't want more length, am I right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif] They are supposed to be 2 handers as well, correct?
Hakonarson
07-21-2003, 23:52
Quote[/b] (Jacque Schtrapp @ July 21 2003,13:36)]
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 21 2003,08:48)]Wicked. 700 men swinging two handed swords Must have looked pretty damn impressive.
Facing 700 men wielding two-handed swords and no shields? Back off and shoot them full of arrows. Then you have 700 not so impressive pincushions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Hard to do when your army is mainly charging cavalry
karmastray
07-22-2003, 04:48
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 15 2003,13:31)]"In 1467, Talhoffer, a Swabian fencing instructor, produced a lavishly illustrated fechtbuch ("fight-book") with 270 illuminations demonstrating techniques for nearly every weapon in the medieval knight's arsenal, as well as techniques for judicial combats between nobles and between peasants. Although long available in German, this is the first English translation of his remarkable how-to. Profusely illustrated here in black and white the book offers freeze-frame instructions on medieval martial arts using swords, shields, poleaxes, daggers and wrestling, both on foot and on horseback."[/i]
You can actually buy this book.
There are a few groups who actually have begun to use this and other manuals like it to train with. It's really interesting to watch I saw a show on (American) Public Television about these guys (real life) who went to live as knights, and who were trained for a tourny using all of the techniques they probably would have used. The sword-trainer guy brought out pages from this book and they used them to train to fight with the long-sword. It was pretty brutal and tiring looking (especially in all that armour)
Hakonarson
07-22-2003, 05:09
There are LOTS of groups using Telhoffer and other medieval sword-master's works these days - I've seen 2 or 3 videos based on them and there's at least 2 groups here that use him - and Wellington is not known as a hotbed of re-enactment http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
A lot of it comes from disatisfaction with "mock"-reneactment with the likes of the SCA - where actual re-enactment/reconstruction in combat takes a back seat to quite reasonable concerns about safety and enjoyment in full contact combat.
What would a large two handed sword like the swabians used weigh? I realize there are different types of swords, but I'll accept a best guess. Must have been in awesome shape to wield them things around for the duration of a battle. They look heavy in movies and such.
solypsist
07-23-2003, 05:30
i started a German campaign just to try them out, and wow those guys do some fast damage. i had conquered denmark, so i used an army mix of swabian swordmen and viking landsmen to attack a rebel province of mostly chivalric swordsmen and militia.
as soon as my units made contact, the green kill bar nearly jumped the track
Quote[/b] (solypsist @ July 22 2003,23:30)]i started a German campaign just to try them out, and wow those guys do some fast damage. i had conquered denmark, so i used an army mix of swabian swordmen and viking landsmen to attack a rebel province of mostly chivalric swordsmen and militia.
Vikings and Swabians. You must have been steamrolling everything. I tried to take the Danes earlier in my current campaign, but the excommunication brought France and Poland against me. Better luck next campaign I guess.
Teutonic Knight
07-29-2003, 16:22
Could we get a screenshot of one of these babies?
Hurin_Rules
07-29-2003, 17:39
Green kill bar?
bighairyman
07-30-2003, 06:29
i hate the swabian swordmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
1 unitof them completely destoryed my 2 royal knights and 1 peasant.
the royal knights were new too, fresh out of the factory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
DemonArchangel
08-01-2003, 00:56
I use gothic foot knights instead... they just look plain cooler.
Hakonarson
08-01-2003, 03:29
Quote[/b] (Praylak @ July 22 2003,11:22)]What would a large two handed sword like the swabians used weigh? I realize there are different types of swords, but I'll accept a best guess. Must have been in awesome shape to wield them things around for the duration of a battle. They look heavy in movies and such.
Probably 4-5 pounds (2-2.5 kilos).
It might not sound like much but it does get heavy after you've been swinging it for a few minutes even
Hurin_Rules
08-01-2003, 04:34
I used to think medieval swords were incredibly heavy-- guess I watched that Bugs Bunny cartoon with the knight in it one too many times. When I actually picked up a replica, it was a surprise. Much lighter than I expected.
If you're really interested, check out Kelly DeVries' Medieval Military Technology. It goes through most of the major weapon types and gives stats for them too.
Please, someone: what is the green kill bar?
Hakonarson
08-01-2003, 05:04
In tactical combat the ratio of your kills to your losses is given by a green/red bar on teh small map - green is your kills - if the gren bar is large you are doing well, if the red bar is large you ain't
karmastray
08-01-2003, 05:40
Quote[/b] (bighairyman @ July 30 2003,00:29)]i hate the swabian swordmen http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif
1 unitof them completely destoryed my 2 royal knights and 1 peasant.
the royal knights were new too, fresh out of the factory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pissed.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
heh...
The only time I've ever fought against the Swabian swordsmen was as Spanish. I was battling my way through Europe and had previously swallowed France up. I invaded Switzerland which was defended by some rebel scum and they had a unit of 4 of those guys hehe. Well, they got steamrolled pretty good by some lancers, but they did have a cool looking unit icon.
A.Saturnus
08-01-2003, 11:44
Quote[/b] ]What would a large two handed sword like the swabians used weigh? I realize there are different types of swords, but I'll accept a best guess. Must have been in awesome shape to wield them things around for the duration of a battle. They look heavy in movies and such.
Probably 4-5 pounds (2-2.5 kilos).
It might not sound like much but it does get heavy after you've been swinging it for a few minutes even
Well, I have a two-handed sword. Don`t know if it`s comparable. It`s one of those the Landsknechts used. I don`t have a weight but 2.5 kg could come close.
Suppiluliumas
08-03-2003, 21:12
My claymore weighs 7Lbs (3.2k). It may be a good deal larger than the blades in question though as it is over 58 inches long.
Hakonarson
08-03-2003, 23:58
Yes the Claymore and Lansknechte style swords would be much longer than he Swabian ones - the Swabians used somethign more like a bastard sword rather than a true 2-hander, as they were expected to use it on horseback too - although they were considered better dismounted.
karmastray
08-04-2003, 05:35
Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ July 21 2003,23:09)]A lot of it comes from disatisfaction with "mock"-reneactment with the likes of the SCA - where actual re-enactment/reconstruction in combat takes a back seat to quite reasonable concerns about safety and enjoyment in full contact combat.
A, well, if it's true bloody battle they want then they should look into Dog Brothers Martial Arts... fun stuff http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif
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