New unit on VI page

[Stormer]

The Triarii are the last available line in early Republican Legions. If these troops are used in a fight, it's often a sign that the moment of decision in battle has arrived. Triarii are tough, experienced, heavy spearmen who make up the third and most senior part of a Legion. They are the oldest veteran soldiers, and the best equipped and armoured. Triarii normally march on the left of the Legion’s three marching columns and form the third (rear) line when Legion forms up for battle. They carry a long "hoplite-style" spear called the hasta which is used to thrust, a long shield and a gladius. Triarii are the Legion’s final reserve and often spend most of a battle waiting at the rear. "Going to the Triarii" was a Roman saying indicating that something was carrying on to the bitter end.

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/tri.jpg


The daddys of the roman legionaires

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

w00t These guys sound pretty hard. Probably my favourite picture so far, too. I like those 3 plumes. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Stormer]

heheh well i thought the picture looked more like a catherginuin soldier then a elite roman soilder. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Sir Robin]

Yeah, I was wondering when we would get to see the early legions.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

What other ones are there? Triarii, up there, Princepes and...Vestiarii?

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]What other ones are there? Triarii, up there, Princepes and...Vestiarii?

yea thats the 3

[Nelson]

That description sounds spot on to me. Very encouraging this. Hastati and principes comprised the other lines and were equipped with pila instead of the hasta. Velites were the skirmishers who did not constitute a line per se.

I believe that the triarii existed because the pre Marian Romans still repected the hoplite phalanx for it's staying power even as they wanted more flexibility from the other maniples.

[AvramL]

In case no one noticed, the picture shows the Triarii carrying a later imperial style rectangular scutum as opposed to the earlier oval ones.

I wonder how the Triarii, Hastati etc. will all be worked into the game, an advancement system based on seniority/experience?

[Basileus]

I like these guys..they even look good http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif heh

[Galestrum]

hehe good eye avram, that shield would be incorrect methinks

[RisingSun]

Look at him very closely and you'll notice that the shield IS rounded ever so slightly, at least on the bottom it is.

[AvramL]

here, see the difference for yourself
http://www.barca.fsnet.co.uk/
(scroll down and select "Rome" then "army", bigger pics can be found under "Legionary" from there)
I am sure most people won't care though. At least, hopefully, this mistake is due simply to the preliminary nature of the pics posted so far.

[Hakonarson]

The Romans didn't "respect" the hoplite phalanx - they didn't "respect" any of their enemies - the good ones they feared, all of htem they hated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The Triarii are the last vestige of the Hoplite phalanx that the Legion originally was - before the Romans fought Phyrus the Princepes were also armed with the hasta, and an account of hte army at hte time of Servius Tullius (the last King of Rome about 500BC) all heavy soldiers carried it.

It's nto a bad description - but the bit about them being the best soldiers & best armoured is overplayed and not defendable. The best of the older soldiers were the Princepes, who were expected to do most of the fighting.

[Rosacrux]

Well, they indeed were the better armoured and more experienced, but definitely not the core army or the "best' ...the Prencipes fullfilled that role. Triarii was a "close to retirement" body... their use in battle was to drive in only if the other two ranks failed or were struggling badly. A standard reserve, one might say, but not an "elite reserve", just the old ones...

And I would also like to see the oval scutum, not the rectangular one which got in use when the old legion lineup was already history.

[Catiline]

So far as I can see on that photo it is an oval scutum, the corners you can see are rounded.

[Divine Wind]

These guys look intresting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[SlipJ]

Quote[/b] ]The Romans didn't "respect" the hoplite phalanx - they didn't "respect" any of their enemies - the good ones they feared, all of htem they hated
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
The Romans did respect all their enemies. Scipion said sometheng like that: "The Greeks has better tactics and more military knowledge then we are, the gauls are more fierce, but none of them trained there troops as we are."

Quote[/b] ]Triarii, up there, Princepes and...Vestiarii?Wasn't they Hastates or something like that?

[some_totalwar_dude]

Aaaah my favorite legionair type.

To bad I dont realy like the plumes http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Vanya]

GAH

Plumes? GAH Vanya thought those were STRAWS

(Ahh... the sweet nectar of the inner craneum... makes for superb slurpees, marinades and sauces )

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

GAH

[Brother Derfel]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ July 17 2003,05:50)]So far as I can see on that photo it is an oval scutum, the corners you can see are rounded.
I don't know, that sheild looks prety rectangular to me. The proper sheild should be oval in shape, not just curved at the tops.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

His shield looks fairly similar to the one on the roman website link. Rounded at the top, with straight sides.

[shingenmitch2]

Oval celtic scutum aside (which that is not) ... all I can say is SWEEEEEET. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Love the plumes Good to see they will have Republic armies as well as the Imperial set-up

Hark, I believe ur correct about the overblow on the "best armored etc." They actually were probably lesser armored as they really weren't expect to fight except as rearguard protection in a retreat or some last ditch attack.

[Mamushi]

Quote[/b] (Big King Sanctaphrax @ July 16 2003,11:49)]What other ones are there? Triarii, up there, Princepes and...Vestiarii?
Huh? Princess Vespa?...Nnnooo,Lone Star http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (SlipJ @ July 17 2003,08:47)]
Quote[/b] ]The Romans didn't "respect" the hoplite phalanx - they didn't "respect" any of their enemies - the good ones they feared, all of htem they hated
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif
The Romans did respect all their enemies. Scipion said sometheng like that: "The Greeks has better tactics and more military knowledge then we are, the gauls are more fierce, but none of them trained there troops as we are."
Yep - so where does he mention respect? He was a general making a basic military analysis of his enemies - only a fool would not do so (mind you there were plenty of those to) - Romans (plural, as in the whole population) had much baser feelings towards enemies

[Rosacrux]

hhmm... Hak, I think aknowledging your opponents supremacy in certain aspects and evaluating said opponent the best way, does indeed show respect. Of course, respect does not mean "fear", by any standard. But it's safe to use that word here. The Romans did respect their opponents, but didn't fear them.

It's a rather different approach than... let's say, Napoleon's, who used to call Austrian soldiers "dogs"... until Wagram, that is. After that, he had a huge respect for the "dogs"... err... the Austrians.

[Hakonarson]

Oh you can find plenty of cases where the Romans denigrate their enemies

And no respect does not mean fear - I think I know that. Romans routinely denigrated their enemies to overcome fear - it's hard to fear someone who you feel completely superior to - hence strategems like showing off Gallic captives naked to show them as pink and soft and flabby - precisely to overcome the fear that Romans had of Gauls.

Or pre-battle speeches pointing out how useless the Macedonians are - how they are not a patch on what they weer like under Alexander and how the Romans had already defeated Phyruss, etc.

[Nowake]

Ok, enough with the pointless discusion.


My question is: these triarii ... we will "build" them along with the other troops, or will we be able to act inteligent and logic by retraining the principes after a set amount of years?


I think this is more than important http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Hakonarson]

so answer it then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Triarii only game as a part of a legion - any other way of building them will be nonsense.

[lonewolf371]

On that one link can also be found a legionary roughly in the center of the screen, with a much more accurate oval shield and Hasta.

As per the triarii, while not necessarily being the "best" of the armies they were more often shock troopers and rear guards, if ever engaged either the army was retreating or it was locked in a stalemate, and the triarii could deliver a knockout punch of sorts. They were, however, older than the other troops, which may actually be one of the reasons why they stayed still, if the soldiers in the triarii had been a few years younger they could have put them to better use, yet early Roman philosophy believed completely in the idea that experience was a better asset than strength.

Just towards someone who mentioned the light troops, they did play some roll in Roman engagements, but I'm pretty sure they were not counted as part of the actual legion in the early republic, and certainly not in the late republic.

[DBS]

The plumes are absolutely correct for the mid-Republican period. They were supposed to be above a "coronet" of feathers, but no-one is exactly sure what that would have looked like - a sort of flattened pom-pom? - so probably simplest to stick with the plumes alone.

The shield is off, although yes it does look as if they've gone for a little token rounding of the corners.

Armour - no-one knows, quite frankly. The Romans had chain-mail by the start of the RTW period, but how many could afford it? We simply don't know. They also had muscled bronze cuirasses, but how many wore them? We don't know. And of course they had the well-known pectoral chest and back plates. Nice and cheap. How many wore them - presumably everyone who could not afford better. But is this 20%, 40%, 60%, 80%?

Now, a sort of modern artistic convention has grown up - including wargames modelling - that says Triarii of, say, 2nd Punic War, have mail, Hastati have pectorales, and Principes... well take your choice. But this is based on the gross assumption that the older you are, the richer you are, and thus the better armour you have. It may be broadly true, but don't make the mistake of thinking that it is a known fact. If an archaeologist finds a pectoral plate, he has no way of knowing who wore it. There are relatively few contemporary artistic renderings from the late 3rd Century, so we are left with Polybius' and others' descriptions. And Polybius, with first-hand knowledge of the Roman army fifty years after the 2nd Punic War, is still talking of pectorals. Frankly, it is the scutum that defines Roman hastati, principes and triarii as heavy infantry, not the precise armour - if any - worn behind it.

And to expand on the comment above - if you have served with the hastati and principes, survived, say, fifteen campaigns, etc, protected by your trusty pectoral and scutum, are you necessarily going to splash out on mail just because you can afford it, while serving as a triarii guarding the camp or acting as a reserve. And mail is HEAVY - I think Connolly reconstructed a set that weighed in at 15kg - and you are no longer a young man....