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View Full Version : * * * Patch 1.02 for MI/WE Available Now * * *



Erado San
11-28-2001, 00:28
Today the latest patch version 1.02 has been released for Shogun: Warlords Edition and Shogun: The Mongol Invasions. This patch provides a major improvement in unit balancing, both in Single Play and in online battles. Apart from that, the patch solves a number of bugs from the previous release. Also, with this patch custom unit stats can be created in the two files troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt. These custom stats can then be used in Single Play and in friendly online battles. In historical battles and in online competitive battles the default stats are used.

You can download the latest patch from: http://erado.totalwar.org

It will also be available on http://www.totalwar.com soon

Have Fun!


[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 11-27-2001).]

tootee
11-28-2001, 00:30
yes yes yes yes yes!

Chaguhun Khan
11-28-2001, 00:31
Alright! All heaven and Earth rejoice! Now how big is it....

------------------
Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

solypsist
11-28-2001, 01:12
um..i may be a bit dense. but i don't see an american verion for download. and just which one do i get? what's the difference between the mongol invaion and the warlord download? they both have hte same stuff, don't they?

Klen Sakurai
11-28-2001, 01:19
soly, you dummy head! hehe

download the European version, it contains all European-based languages, the other has Eastern languages and might not work at all with a European version of the game.. dunno about that.

MI and WE are just programmed a little differently I think, so that a single patch might have trouble locating the same stuff in each. (ie, MI is programmed as an add-on to STW, WE is probably programmed more cleanly as a stand alone.)

You will drink your coffee now. All of it. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
And I will too, and we'll be happy. ahh.

------------------
Argalarganar.

Klen Sakurai
11-28-2001, 01:23
I bet you will have figured this all out by the time you read this post though, by reading the page where the download is located. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

------------------
Argalarganar.

Vanya
11-28-2001, 01:31
Are armor/weapons costs changing again? And unit costs? Geez!

I know why y'all did this... you were tired of getting spanked by the wet gunny wedgie army of doom! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif You are sabotaging my legacy! AARRRGHHH! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

I foresee a storm of Out of Sync errors and a return of comp games to center stage. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 01:37
It's a 7 MByte download. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Vanya
11-28-2001, 01:38
Hmmm... perhaps I am psychic... maybe I will start a Tarot reading 900 service... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Gothmog
11-28-2001, 01:42
Dear Erado San:

Wondering if you can put the patch 1.0.1 up there for download as well.

A quick glance at the troopstats gives me the following impression (mostly for single player)

Now the cavalry get atrocious charging bonus. But after that, Yari cavalry is as pathetic as Cavalry Archer in HTH.

No-Dachi seems to outperform WM in many aspect expect for the armor maybe.

Heavy cavalry finally becomes a force to recon with.

Samuri archer gets charging bonus, and can even outperform YS in HTH if used correctly! (sounds ridiculous to me)

Kensi is close to unstopable.

---------------------------------------------
Overall, I got a feeling that it's a result of those programmers who seldom test-play at all, but instead alter the troopstats on a whim.

Erado San
11-28-2001, 01:46
Play them first mate. There's much more to them then just numbers. Read the reader on my site too.

And the 1.01 are being replaced by the 1.02.

At the moment the 1.01 are not available.

[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 11-27-2001).]

Vanya
11-28-2001, 01:57
But... did they put bayonets on those arquebuses so that these pathetic little men can survive in the new world order? Nooooooooooo...!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Soon, I will unlease my greatest invention: the mounted gatling-arquebus. Only a very strong man can ride a horse and wield this behemoth death machine. It spits out a whopping 20 shots per minute! Oh my! I am walking in fields of red under the jealous Sun!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

Gothmog
11-28-2001, 02:04
All right. Take back what I said.

BTW, I downloaded it last night even before you set up the links right (hahaha)

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 02:20
Gothmog,

The unit parameters were definitely not altered on a whim. If you want stats closer to v1.01 for single play, then I would recommend editing the v1.02 stats rather than continuing to use v1.01. The v1.02 stats do play well in single play.

MizuYuuki ~~~

Khan7
11-28-2001, 02:22
Quick! Shiro! Catiline!! A misplaced thread! Without doubt this belongs in Editing/Mods/Patches! How could you be so remiss in your duties?? LOL!

Matt

LordTed
11-28-2001, 02:22
praise u all

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 02:23
Gothmog,

You better download it again. I think you outsmarted yourself by doing that.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Gothmog
11-28-2001, 02:37
Quote Originally posted by Puzz3D:
Gothmog,

You better download it again. I think you outsmarted yourself by doing that.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~ [/QUOTE]

Ok, mate. Wondering if you can e-mail me the 1.0.1 troopstats.

My e-mail is argus4321@yahoo.com

Plus, I do seem to get a lot smarter after a healthy dose of London dry gin.

Thanks a million.

Chaguhun Khan
11-28-2001, 02:46
UGH! Another "balancing" thing for the Mongs. I'm gonna die! Maybe I should just be Japanese, hmm....

------------------
Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

Obake
11-28-2001, 02:48
I'm with Puzz on this one Gothmog.... I would definitely re-download it if I were you.

The troopstats and projectiles are definitely not the best way to compare the relative capabilities of units. One thing that we found during the testing process is that even minute changes can have significant impact. 6 weeks from when we started we finally reached a place where we were happy with our results.

Speaking for myself (although I'm sure the rest would agree), I have a new-found respect for Creative Assembly and the work that was put into this game. I'd also like to thank them for unique opportunity of allowing us to do this work. I hope that the rest of the community is as pleased with the efforts that went into this patch as CA is and we are!

------------------
Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Klen Sakurai
11-28-2001, 02:53
whoa the new patch is super awesome, I haven't won a single online battle yet with my clumsy head on charge tactics. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

force everyone you know to dl it immediatly. threaten them. make them do it! Do it! DOoo itt!

------------------
Argalarganar.

Obake
11-28-2001, 02:54
Chaguhun Khan,

If, as a Mongol-loving lunatic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif you are also good with them, then you will still be pleased even with the re-balancing.

It was critical for us to not turn the Mongols into a Japanese Army with different graphics as Erado says in the tactical readme. All we did is ensure that the Mongols were not the monsters that they have been in the past.

Don't worry, your beloved MHC are still the singlemost powerful unit in the game, even with the changes. Just don't expect to be able to run rampant without a serious challenge anymore!

------------------
Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Chaguhun Khan
11-28-2001, 02:55
Dude, ever heard of sorrounding someone with Cavalry? Try it, you might like it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.

------------------
Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and lunitic (however you spell that)

"When someone annoys you, it takes over forty muscles to frown, but only four to slap the loser upside the head."

Whitey
11-28-2001, 03:02
woohoo!!!

it has all come true!!!

thats it...I'll be playing online again soon, and I think some others may be doing so too http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif


------------------
"Mon centre cède du terrain, ma droite se replie. Situation excellente. J'attaque!"
- Foch

11-28-2001, 03:08
MWUAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
ITS ALIVE!!! :d

Tera

------------------
Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

Kocmoc
11-28-2001, 03:19
i just want to say thx...
mizus u guyd did a great job, i bow for u.

i thank too, that i got the chance to help a bit.

this is a wonderful patch, and in my opinion it is the patch we wanted.

koc

Kraellin
11-28-2001, 03:31
ok. a few rough notes on overall fixes then i'll start a thread in the mods forum for more details. boy, you have no idea how much i wanted to tell you guys some of this before :)

guns are toned down. bows can be real gun killers now. cav speeds are increased to reflect differences tween infantry speeds and cav. mongols now play VERY well against other mongols and japanese. mongol heavy cav is still a killer, and mongol heavy cav and mongol light cav combo is a real menace, but, not as much so as before....bring spears :) gun reload times are slowed down. gun incidental kills are lessened. friendly fire kills do happen. thunder bombers increased to 30 men. you can no edit how many men are in a unit. muskets do still work in rain, but with the longer reloads this gets exaggerated in rain by about 4 to 5 times the amount of time, so guns are almost worthless in rain and very easy to defeat. gun power is toned down. NO price changes were made to this patch! ashi upgrade rush is gone. fatigue is fixed and works very well now. overall morale of units works correctly now. infantry all WALK at the same speed now so you can keep your units marching together. all cav now WALK at the same speed, but a different walk speed from infantry...cav walks faster. ninja walk at a diff speed from normal infantry due to their nature. we could find no one single overpowering unit or army type, thus balanced armies now have a much better chance of winning, if played correctly. cav work more like cav now, higher charging kills, but less effective in melee...for the most part. each cav unit now fills a more specific role. heavy cav improved. yari cav is a fast, chase/flanking unit as before, but works better now and is faster. mongol skirmishers toned down. mongol infantry in general, a bit better, but still not as powerful as japanese infantry. mongol cav still better than japanese cav, in general. you can now edit any missile unit to work or not work in rain by editing the stats files. there isnt any unit i wouldnt consider using now for specific situations or maps. yari ashigaru speeded up to counter cav rushes. they still suck, but do serve a purpose. naginatas improved a bit.

when we finished all this and gave it back to CA they didnt like it much. we changed a lot of stuff. but they played it a few days and decided it was pretty good after all :) we figure the same may happen here. those that liked the big guns wont find big guns now and will have to adjust, but it does play more fairly now. there were a lot of 'style' changes we could have made, things that might suit one style of play or another but we mostly avoided those, going for balanced play and overall game play.

to those that just look at the numbers in the stat files, dont be fooled. those numbers dont completely reflect all the capabilities of a unit and all aspects of combat. we know there are hidden stats and hidden routines used to modify, mollify and adjust units, so just going by the numbers in the stat files wont give you a complete picture of how a unit works. play the game :)

we noticed a tendency with these adjusted stats to spread out one's formations more. my initial mongol formations now easily cover half a small map. i believe this is mostly due to the faster cav speeds and their ability to flank better. you have to cover yourself better now on the flanks.

we were also worried about various specialty armies like guns/monks and all mongol cav armies. these are defeatable and we did the best we could to prevent any lopsided, everyone takes this army now, type situations. we also joked about how, the day this thing gets released, the day after someone is going to find that one nasty unit or combo that will unhinge the game again, like the upgraded ashi rush. there are some strong armies possible, but we could find none that cant be countered....if you take the right army. there is nothing we can do with mods to help you outsmart your opponent in picking his army :) remember sun tzu's words, 'know your enemy'.

we looked at a LOT of possible changes, some being pretty wild. we tore things apart and put them back together again. you shld really see what a thunder bomber can do when he shoots 10 tiles away :)

we tore our hair out and we tore each other's hair out at times, but we think we reached a pretty damn good balance. but the REALLY nice thing is, if you DON'T think so, why just mod the bloody things yourself! you can now...and even more so than the original version 1.00. to me, this was crucial. we could have had 100 folks in on this all changing things and modding things and maybe eventually coming up with the 'perfect' final version, but we all know that there's always going to be those that have a completely different opinion of what 'perfect' is, so having the option to mod things yourself, to me, was a primary concern. we now have that. about the only thing you cant mod are unit prices. i tried to get those included, but it didnt happen.

folks, i want to thank CA a LOT. this was somewhat unprecedented in what they allowed us to do and what they allowed us access to. we werent just a beta test group. beta test just looks at things and reports back to the company. we were given the capability to change things, not just look and report. this is somewhat unusual in the software industry and i thank CA for giving us this trust and opportunity.

i'd also like to thank Erado. without him, NONE of this would have been possible!

and khan7, yer right, mate. we couldnt really say anything about what was going on. and at least in my case, i did have to ignore some of your posts on the mods forum...well, not ingore, but i couldnt really respond either. i did look at your real deal stats and i think you did some very good work there. if we had had more time i would have liked to have incorporated some of your mods into what we did. your spears and mobility changes were pretty damn good. i also wanted to tell you to wait before modding further, but really couldnt. we werent sure what CA was going to allow on the final version, so i had to just keep my mouth closed. but i do look forward to seeing your mod files with the new capabilities we have now. shld be interesting.

we also now know that activision is going to be the new distributor for the Medieval. i believe that also means that EA is going to continue to keep stw/we/mi on their servers. i doubt they'll take down the servers, as they can still generate some sales.

hopefully, this mod and the new capabilities and balance will also see the return of some of our old friends. we look forward to this and as a pre-emptive strike....welcome home folks :)

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

Obake
11-28-2001, 04:07
Quote Originally posted by Chaguhun Khan:
Dude, ever heard of sorrounding someone with Cavalry? Try it, you might like it http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I've heard of it, and have even tried it. The problem is that I'm so much better at killing Mongols than at playing them! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

Old farts like me just don't have the reflexes to truly run rampant with the Mongols. It takes someone with a liquid mind like Magyar to truly pull it off.

I'll stick with my "Really irritated porcupine, but not quite sure what to do about it" defense! lol



------------------
Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Trousermonkey
11-28-2001, 04:18
Superb job guys. It sounds like you put a lot of work into it and I can't wait to get home and try it out.

Erado San
11-28-2001, 04:45
Yes, 6 weeks I believe, 760 mails in and out of my box, Lots of sleepless nights, loads'a pizza and beer. And endless, endless discussions on what the actual value of the MHC should be... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

On a very, very serious note:

I want to thank Creative Assembly, and in particular their QA manager for the confidence they have in our efforts. Indeed, the tables were turned on this patch. Instead of the company making the patch and the testers testing it, this time they gave us the chance to work on it and were the testers themselves.

Yes, when we finally submitted our stats they had mixed emotions. But they gave them a chance and played a few games. They had to lose all the mechanical choices they had gotten used to and adapt to the new style of play.

I also want to thank Target especially for the many late hours we spent chatting on the innards of the game. Your patience and your support for the community are highly appreciated.

While Kraellin thanks me for saying none of this may never have happened but for my efforts, I must stress the fact that that goes the same way around. All members of the team have given their input and their valuable time to get this on the road. In particular I would like to mention the number crunchers to the extreme: TosaInu, Yuuki, Kraellin, Doc. It is fair to say that the rest of us sometimes were completely lost in some of the mathematical discussions you guys put up.

Enjoy this patch, guys. I sure know we do.

[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 11-27-2001).]

DoCToR
11-28-2001, 04:55
Yup, well done all.. esp Ed and the CA team for the chance to help out and for putting their trust in us...

Hope you all enjoy it as much as we do! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Now, lets get back online and have some fun http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi

Vanya
11-28-2001, 04:55
A question for youz...

If two players play a friendly battle, and are using different stat files... can they actually join each other's game in the first place? Or will the JOIN button be greyed out as happens when you try to join a game hosted on a map you don't have?

I mean, if they guy joins only to get sync-dropped, the I say the patch is incomplete. It *SHOULD* grey out the join button unless you actually *CAN* play the bastid host... that is you 1. have the map (OK) and 2. have the SAME stat file loaded (OK or not OK?).

I hope I am not the only one to have thought about this...

My concern is that mod proliferation will make MP games extinct, as there would be no way to ensure any 2 people have the same stats. Hopefully, I understand the brief correctly and that comp games are uneditable by any means...



[This message has been edited by Vanya (edited 11-27-2001).]

Erado San
11-28-2001, 04:59
Vanya,

That was not possible sadly, due to the moment when the stats are read, which is AFTER the battle has been joined. So you have to be careful there. Before you hit the play battle button the host should make sure all have the same stats.

Kraellin
11-28-2001, 06:45
vanya,

a modded file will only work if everyone has it and will only work in FRIENDLY online games and custom. when the game launches it checks the stats and if ANYONE doesnt have the same files/mods then they are bumped out of the game. this is why they only allowed this in friendly games, so that folks cant cheat in the comp games by modding and then escaping and claiming the win. so, even if one person modifies a file to cheat with, it will be detected shortly after the game launches and they'll be booted out. and since it's only a friendly game anyways, all that is lost is a bit of time.

for comp games and campaign games the normal 1.02 stats are used. and cheating by modding in those is even harder.

one other thing that shld be mentioned about the new changes; the game was balanced at 7000 koku, not 5000. due to how the game works, if you go too far above or below that 7k figure the game can become unbalanced again...mostly if you go above. i dont really know where that starts to show up, but it will. it seems ok at 4000 and up to 10000 and i've already seen one game online at 3000, but not sure how it turned out.

i sat in the foyer and talked with folks for a while after the release. so, the reviews are coming in. so far, it's looking pretty good :) the best compliment i've heard, and i heard it several times, is that it plays more like stw now :) ... that was the goal :)

K.


------------------
I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

Vanya
11-28-2001, 07:07
Quote Originally posted by Erado San:
Vanya,

That was not possible sadly, due to the moment when the stats are read, which is AFTER the battle has been joined. So you have to be careful there. Before you hit the play battle button the host should make sure all have the same stats.[/QUOTE]

Presumably there are a plethora of different stats that can be altered. Do you really expect the host to start listing each value on the foyer before hitting BEGIN? Surely, you must be kidding!

Erado San
11-28-2001, 07:20
No, I'm not kidding. I am already working on a solution to that problem.

Sjakihata
11-28-2001, 07:31
Yeah... And you got to remember all your own troop stas http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif Phew...!

I think it will be easier if the host asks: Any one who NOT got the standart stats?
-I don't
-Then Leave

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
"-Know your self, know your enemy and your victory will be painless.
-Know the weather, know the terrain and your victory will be complete."
-Sun Tzu(Wu), The Art of War.

jomni
11-28-2001, 08:02
Haven't downloaded the patch yet. What's the FILE SIZE?

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 08:22
Vanya,

The way we handled this was to make a zip archive of the modded troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt, and then email or icq it to those who wanted to play that mod. The name of the archive should be unique. We used dates and version numbers in the name. You can keep them all in a subdirectory, and just unzip the one you want to use into you main game directory. You can do this while remaining in the WE/MI foyer. The only exception is if the troop number for any unit changes. In that case you have to restart the game. Make an archive of the default stats as well. There are two bat files, one written by TosaInu and one by Khan7, which allow easy switching of stat files.

It was this or nothing. It's not the greatest for sure, but I'm glad we have at least this capability to play modded games online. If a better mod is developed and gathers a large following, it could become the defacto standard for friendly games. The cabability is not present at all in v1.01.

MizuYuuki ~~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Khan7
11-28-2001, 08:26
Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
Presumably there are a plethora of different stats that can be altered. Do you really expect the host to start listing each value on the foyer before hitting BEGIN? Surely, you must be kidding!

[/QUOTE]

I don't think it would be quite as chaotic as you're saying, Vanya. The obvious tendency would be to circulate *standardized* sets of altered stats, for instance the Real Deal Mod (sorry had to throw that in there http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif), so you'd just have to say "I've got v1.2 of the Real Deal Mod, it's really great, I love it, have you got that? You do too? Excellent, we can play a game." http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

But anyway I'm sure you get my general drift..

Matt

andrewt
11-28-2001, 08:35
I have a big question that has been bugging me ever since. In game, the MHC is awesome but in the stat files, even before the patch, they aren't that great. Right now, they are weaker compared to heavy cavalry. Can somebody tell if the damage, attack routines for Mongols are computed differently or how much their hidden bonuses are or what these bonuses are? All the numbers look fine to me except for Japanese vs. Mongols. There seem to be hidden bonuses for the Mongols against Japanese. Also, does the armor upgrade increase the armor value, defense value or both? Is it just for ranged attacks or is it also for melee attacks? I'm also assuming that the honor value is not really honor in game but morale.

Also, is their morale handled differently because they have a 0 on the unroutable thing though I suspect that just handles a unit's reaction to ashigaru routing.

Patch looks good, just puzzled over the Mongol stats.

Khan7
11-28-2001, 08:40
About MHC-- anyone who has read my research knows that the "hidden" stat for MHC is the Max Turning Angle Whilst in Motion, which has an exponential impact on Cav effectiveness. For most Inf it is 256, but for JHC and YC it is 8. For MHC and MLC it's 128. So there ya go. IMO it should be toned down to like 64 for MHC (which is how it is in the planned Mongol expansion to the Real Deal mod).

Matt

andrewt
11-28-2001, 09:05
Ok, I saw that but what does it do for melee. It's probably good for flanking so you can easily execute turns for them, but when you are already engaged what good does it do?

Edit: Does anybody know for sure the answer to the armor thing cause I don't know the real answer. I also noticed that the attributes for the phantoms seem changed, does any of the beta testers know what that if for?

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 11-28-2001).]

KumaRatta Yamamoto
11-28-2001, 09:17
Originally posted by Terazawa Tokugawa:
MWUAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
ITS ALIVE!!! :d

Tera

_____________________________________________

Hey Tera your stealing my line!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

ANYWAY, Thanks to MizuYuuki, MizuTosaInu, MizuDoc, MizuKraellin, Obake, Terazawa, Kocmoc, Magyar Khan for all your hard work.

Magyar Khan
11-28-2001, 09:33
of all mentioned my role was very small, i did just some nose corrections to let them point the same direction...

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 10:01
Andrewt,

The MHC get a +4 bonus against non-yari cav because they carry a spear. It also appears to me that the non-yari cav get the -4 bonus when attacking MHC although this is supposed to be only if facing yari infantry. The spear also completely negates any casualties from a frontal charge by the non-yari cav in the initial impact.

I checked the magnitude of the effect of max turning angle using the MHC vs JHC matchup. Both units charging each other, and 3 runs averaged. The number after the unit name is the max turning angle.

MHC 128 vs JHC 8 kill rate is 4.4 to 1
MHC 8 vs JHC 8 kill rate is 3.6 to 1
MHC 8 vs JHC 128 kill rate is 2.5 to 1

Both given JHC stats:
MHC vs JHC kill rate is 4.5 to 1

Max turning angle does have an effect, but it's not the major effect giving the MHC it's big advantage over JHC.

The armor upgrade adds +1 to armor and +1 to defense. The stat labeled honor is in fact morale. I believe the unroutable stat does determine the unit's susceptibility to ashi routing as you say.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Khan7
11-28-2001, 10:37
I stand corrected Puzz. But it has an effect nonetheless. And it is a major factor giving MHC it's power.

Matt

andrewt
11-28-2001, 11:38
So, actually, in the new patch, the MHC is a very beefed up version of the Yari Cav. Slower, but stronger. Stat wise, the JHC seems the best against infantry, and probably the Nag Cav the most cost-effective cav but then for the Mongols that is what the MLC is for. The MHC is just for protecting the MLC, sort of, and charging non-infantry troops. Makes sense.

Also, the max turning angle is what exactly. So, it helps even in straight up melee, but what is it exactly? Turn around quicker to attack adjacent enemies?

[This message has been edited by andrewt (edited 11-28-2001).]

clink
11-28-2001, 12:39
Yep...Jap calvary definatly has some new zing added in,they now move faster than before.
JHC are more powerfull,Nag Calvary aren't as effective as they once were,and YC,man can they move now.
Good to see that JHC are finally worth their weight in...koku,was going to say gold.


------------------
TeuTonic

Khan7
11-28-2001, 12:45
Actually I think you mean weight in rice, but who am I to pick nits?..

Matt

qwertyuiop
11-28-2001, 13:29
Good job beta team. Whip them CA boys into shape http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Game play seems much more enjoyable now.

Puzz3D
11-28-2001, 15:01
I just finished playing a 4v4 online, and it was an epic battle with a last minute cav rescue to boot. Everyone involved was quite pleased with the gameplay. The fix to fatigue makes the morale system work properly again. I'd say this game is back to being exciting.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

theforce
11-29-2001, 19:19
Another patch tried to fix it but it goe it wrong again! by increasing the gun cost and beefing up the good unit cost the players will turn to high hnor melee and turn to rush tactics.
I would only make the damn guns unable to shoot in rain and snow thus making gun lovers to think again about getting many guns. Hmmm better prepare for some cavarly rushing again, hope the YS and naginata are beefed up!

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

EuroSan
11-29-2001, 19:33
Vanya mate...i think if you have diffrent stat then the host you get "Out of sync" http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

By the way how are you...please droop by our forum sometime..




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May the honour be with you all..........EuroSan the reborned spirit of LinkSan

Whitey
11-29-2001, 19:36
ah - I may return to my Heavy Cavalry rush tactics http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Erado San
11-29-2001, 22:13
TheForce,

minimizing rushes has also been high on the agenda during the development of these stats. We tried them, and no rush tactics survived our testing. No doubt rushes are still possible, and it wouldn't surprise me if someday someone comes up with a killer again. It's an element of the game that is hard to eliminate alltogether.

No, just stopping guns from firing in rain or tweaking the price would not have been enough. With the standard battle online involving 6 musks a side all the time there had to be more.

But at the moment I am not afraid of any of the rushes we have seen in the past. I can defeat them all just as easy or hard as any other army.

And yes, we did look at the HC and NC heavy armies as well.

theforce
11-29-2001, 22:35
The thing that l liked about the rain or snow and the guns was the epic battles. Eg two well balanced armies can battle for a long time in small skirmishes and at the main battle while the rain started the attacker would make his move while defender's guns were out of order but when he was just close they started firing again when the rain stopped. I miss those times http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

Erado San
11-29-2001, 23:10
Oh, I agree there. I particuarly liked battles in rain with dry patches. Timing was crucial. Too bad they fixed that bug, because they always intended guns to fire in rain though.

BUT! In our tests we have clearly seen that although guns fire, they hardly have any impact anymore. Rain still renders them all but useless now, and that is a blessing.

shingenmitch2
11-30-2001, 00:22
Hi Guys -- THIS PATCH IS GREAT NEWS!

Thanks to all -- esp. my Mizu buds.

I haven't played it with the patch yet, but 1 important question about movement speeds ...
SPEED = TIME / DISTANCE. For MI, the maps were made bigger, but it seemed that all units moved faster.

Was the overall "game speed" crancked up, or did all units actually march a bit faster?

If it is the latter, then it is a mistake, because it defeats the purpose of a bigger map (speed shrinks the map). Following that line then, it sounds like to get the relative Cav/Inf speeds correct, it would have been better to slow the infantry instead of speeding up the cavalry. (That would solve this spreading the army across the map thing that was mentioned by a tester -- which is the effect of speed/map shrinkage)

Thanks for your help/work guys. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Kocmoc
11-30-2001, 00:34
theforce,

if u get a balanced army, this means atleast
2 spears, better 3 or 4, u never will fear any cav-rush!

yes, guns shoot in rain, but very slow, so ur archers kill them easy now.

u cant attack with ur cav nw everything, u need to controll ur entire army. u need skills to od this in a good speed.

so again, the skill will decide who wins...

koc

Obake
11-30-2001, 01:14
Quote Originally posted by shingenmitch2:
Hi Guys -- THIS PATCH IS GREAT NEWS!

Thanks to all -- esp. my Mizu buds.

I haven't played it with the patch yet, but 1 important question about movement speeds ...
SPEED = TIME / DISTANCE. For MI, the maps were made bigger, but it seemed that all units moved faster.

Was the overall "game speed" crancked up, or did all units actually march a bit faster?

If it is the latter, then it is a mistake, because it defeats the purpose of a bigger map (speed shrinks the map). Following that line then, it sounds like to get the relative Cav/Inf speeds correct, it would have been better to slow the infantry instead of speeding up the cavalry. (That would solve this spreading the army across the map thing that was mentioned by a tester -- which is the effect of speed/map shrinkage)

Thanks for your help/work guys. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif[/QUOTE]

Hey Mitch! Good to see ya again. Now get your butt on the Mongol server!

In answer to your question, the overall game speed had been cranked up a bit with the release of MI/WE. In addition to that, there were a couple of other problems, namely that when you had a unit run, it was running at the charge speed resulting in a serious impact on fatigue which in turn has a huge impact on morale. Once CA had fixed that, we were able to effectively look at unit speeds.

One of the concerns that we had was to try and build some realism into the relative differences between Cav and Infantry speeds. In the end what has happened is that we came up with a generic formula for speed starting with a base run speed for infantry and a base run speed for Cav based on some real-life data. These figures were then modified based on armor, unweildy-ness of the weapon and so forth. We then tested the revised speeds and adjusted to ensure that we retained gameplay.

In the end, the overall speeds of the units went up by a point or so for infantry, more for cav, but it appears to be slower since the run/charge speed bug was fixed. So the maps overall have not shrunk.

An additional benefit of the work that went into the speeds is that we were also able to accentuate the differences between Infantry and Cavalry with the end result providing more tactical flexibility for the online players. This may be of little use to the Turtle Taisho's out there, but for those Taisho's who like to appear everywhere at once, keeping their opponent off balance until the final strike, they will now be able to do so more effectively. The tools to counter both are also available to those Taisho's who fall in between these extremes.

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Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

Puzz3D
11-30-2001, 04:17
ShingenMitch2,

Apparently, the speed increase for WE/MI over STW is due to more efficient coding within the exe. I think you'll find that the average cav speed in v1.02 is the same as v1.01, but the infantry speed is about 25% slower.

I played some games with the speed of everything slowed by an additional 40%, and the gameplay is really changed because, as you say, distance is then magnified. You had to use more anticipation in planning your moves. You could not get support units out in time to help units well out on the flanks that got into trouble. The cav animations also appeared to be in slow motion. Overall, I thought it was going a bit too far, but I'm sure some would like it.

I think you can just as easily go too far in slowing things down as you can in speeding them up. Of course, you can still physically play a game that's too slow, but not one that' s too fast.

Hope to see you online again,

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

Brown Wolf
12-02-2001, 21:05
I am having problems downloading the file from the main totalwar site! It says the file was corrupted when it was created. Re-downloading did not help. What should I do?

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Sucess is the only option

Totalize1
12-02-2001, 21:37
Well, the patches seem to have dealt mainly with the multiplayer issues which is very important. However I suspect most purchasers of the game are like me and probably play mostly single-play; campaigns, custom games and 'historical' scenarios. I also occasionally play MP on a LAN.

Given this, I can't honestly see the point in bothering to install the patches at all if you are a single-player. If I want to play with troopstats files etc, for instance to increase historical accuracy or improve gameplay, then I can do it myself with a bit of hard work and research.

Things I wanted to see in the patch are features that I *can't* alter myself that would much improve the single/campaign game and 'mod-ability':

1)Ability to change cost in koku of units and buildings
2)Ability to exclude certain strategic and tactical units and buildings (eg geisha, ninja etc). For instance by limiting the 'Tech level' for pre-Sengoku samurai period (only 'large castle' level for 12th Century Gempei era)
3)Ability to set up proper system of daimyos and heirs for the whole samurai civil-war period (11th -16th Centuries) and not just for the Sengoku and MI eras.
4)Ability to change mon emblems, add more clans to campaigns.
5) Mongol vs Mongol and 'Early' Sam vs 'Early' Sam have been added for MP but not for single custom battles (I think?). Why not?

I'm sure there are others we could come up with too. Sorry, but I'm kind of disappointed. Have I missed something? Is there anything that justifies the single player installing the patch? Not from reading the summary of changes. Sure, the MP group dominate things on these forums but what about the wider picture?

Puzz3D
12-02-2001, 22:27
Totalize1,

A bug which caused units to fatigue at about twice the rate they should was fixed, and you can edit unit size now. Customized stats now work in online friendlies and custom battle.

Changes to the strategic part of the game are much more involved in terms of programming, and I'd be surprised if CA has the time or resources to devote to it. It would have been really nice to have the unit and building costs picked up from an external text file, and seems a natural way to do that.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~