JHC too strong in single player campaign

[Gothmog]

First of all, many thanks to the Beta-testing teams for their hard-work.

And I know that 1.0.2 is all about compromise, about balancing between unit performance, price, and both single and multi player, and the result was pretty impressive.

However, I do think JHC is a bit too strong in single player now. It's now almost as unstopable as mongel heavy cavalry.

I have been able to rely primarily on HC in single player, and nothing seems to be able to stop them. Archers, guns can hardly do any damage against a charging horde in loose formation; shock troops drop like flies under the hooves of JHC; Yari ashigaru run like there is no tomorrow, even Yari samurai can't hurt them ... etc, etc, you got the idea.

And with the boosted JHC, it hardly justify using any other types of cavalry, or even any other troops at all.

There were a bunch of battles that I had been seriously outnumbered and just one single unit of JHC was able to save the day.

Example one: Omi, I had one unit of musket, 1 unit of archers, one kensi, one unit of YS and one unit of HC. The ronin attacked in a RAINY day with 4 units of WM, 3 units of SA, 2 units of YA, 2 units of YS. And my HC general charged all the way through, and routed the entire army. Not one single HC died.

Exmaple two: Kaga, I attacked with one unit of HC, one unit of NC, one kensi, and one unit of ND. Uesugi Kenshin had 4 units of archers and 2 units of WM with his bodyguards.
The attack almost looks like a suicide, and indeed Kenshin's WM and Hamato did serious damage to my ND and NC, but then I let loose my HC, and after 2 minutes of heated combat, I won. Lost more than 2/3 of ND and NC but only 10 out of 60 HC died.

Any thoughts? (of course I just saw Erado's announcement that 1.0.2 is offical, but we can always change troopstats)

[This message has been edited by Gothmog (edited 11-30-2001).]

[oZoNeLaYeR]

yer take a look at my post "daimyo's honour = 11!! and u will see how many the HC kill is. i cant believe it as well, my HC crushed one unit of yari samurai in frontal attack, but downhill and lost not more than 10 HC. they are invincible... !!!

[Chaguhun Khan]

I agree, they can even nearly stand up to MHC! I'M CALLING MY CONGRESSMAN!

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[DoCToR]

Ok, several points to remember here guys.

1. The JHC were adjusted primarily with MP in mind. In this situation the JHC are fine and balance well for their high cost.

2. Remember that the JHC created in SP campaign requires an armoury and so all JHC produced therefore get a +1 defence and +1 armour. Also by the time a province is able to produce HC the province will often contain other bonus-adding buildings like swordsmiths and palaces. Thus JHC will end up fairly well boosted. To cover that make sure you have yer YS boosted in a similar fashion.

3. Also remember IF you don't like them how they are in SP campaigns then by all means go ahead and mod them yourselves! These stats are only fixed for MP.

Have fun,



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MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi

[Erado San]

Still, worth looking into. Are you guys playing normal, Hard or Expert?

[MIZILUS]

Speaking of cav (sorry if I missed it on another thread)but I noticed Yari cav are more expensive than Nag cav...how come?

I thought of cav as: yari(light) Nag(medium) and heav (well..heavy)...Am I missing something? Or did I imagine this? Ack!

[Chaguhun Khan]

Quote Originally posted by MIZILUS:
Speaking of cav (sorry if I missed it on another thread)but I noticed Yari cav are more expensive than Nag cav...how come?

I thought of cav as: yari(light) Nag(medium) and heav (well..heavy)...Am I missing something? Or did I imagine this? Ack![/QUOTE]

You are correct, and I have no clue why. Erado San, I play expert. Does that have something to do with it??? Finally, I think its lame that JHC can hold up so well against spear units on the custom battles (especialy MHC). Also, even when completly outnumbered, they kick MLC backside(who have battle axes). Either lower the cost or preferably lower they're stregth(I mean, MLC and MHC cost a good amount more than JHC, and both have a major hard time with them).



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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[DoCToR]

MHC make mince out of the JHC in custom battles...

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MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi

[DoCToR]

OZonelayer, you'll notice if you look at your other post that your HC is h6, has silver srmour and +3 weapon upgrades....

...it's no wonder it killed so many lol, that is one heavily upgraded unit.

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Jaguara]

Sounds like the good Doctor is getting a bit defensive http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

What the screenshot does not tell you is the level of upgrades of the opponents...

[Chaguhun Khan]

Ok, ok, maybe the MHC don't have too many problems with them, but MLC are torn to shredds by JHC and they cost more. What's up with that?

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[BakaGaijin]

Simple. The MLC have arrows!

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Chaguhun Khan]

Which do nearly nothing, but put dents in the enemy's armour and make it look like they're actually doing something!

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Kocmoc]

hehe, http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BakaGaijin]

Fine, then. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[oZoNeLaYeR]

oiii my JHC's honour good was because of my Daimyo, he has honour 8 - thus adding 3 honour to every unit he commands... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Gothmog]

Expert level, Erado san.

I remember in the old STW, even a golden plated HC will have some problem facing YS. Now things seem to have changed.

Also they are less vulnerable to arrows than before, due to the boosted stats I suppose.

I guess next time, I'll try to avoid playing Takeda clan, that way, I'll be facing the black tide instead of being the black tide myself.

[Erado San]

Hi Gothmog and everybody,

I did play a couple of campaigns with these new stats during development and found them to be harder really. But yes, I never played Takeda myself.

Most of the actual balancing has been done online and in custom battles, where the upgrades aren't taken into account. As people have mentioned here, in the campaign they have an immediate upgrade.

So starting out as Takeda will probably be the easiest campaign now. I am starting another campaign for myself to see if there really is a problem. If there is, I'll see what I can do about it.

[Shoko]

But wasnt all these discussion's before stating that HC werent strong enough?
Surely HC should be the master unit on the field......Like the MHC?
YS do chew these up if used correctly,and if useing YA,use them to charge into flanks etc,when HC are already engage,try it out!
As for the guns same again,engage with YS and shoot them to death at the same time..
Well is there gunna be 1 more final patch? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[Erado San]

True, Shoko, but the AI don't use their units so well. So playing with HC against the AI could well be a problem.

I don't know about what patching there will be next, and if I did I wouldn'nt say http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BakaGaijin]

That's exactly right, Shoko.

But, unfortunately, it's impossible to please everybody. Not to imply that Gothmog is some kind of freaskish abnormality, or anything. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif It's just a fact of life and game design, really.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!