View Full Version : Who need guns?!?!
i saw many posts about guns and they are so strong...too strong...
yes, they are strong!
in my opinion, too strong...
but if we all play with more than 3 guns too, the new guys will
never change.
so, i started to play all guys who want, with no gun for me.
they learn it! im sure, they get still with 8 guns theyr ***
kicked.
come on guys, make it too kick this guys from the hills with theyr guns...
new tactics arrived, i think too many guns are not good.
koc
I am with u on that. I used 3 archers for a long while and it never caught on. Get them sods in a tourament with unit limmit 3 and we shall see who can dance.
Pussiecat
11-11-2001, 07:57
I like to Booooggiieeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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PUUUUSSSSSIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEE POOOOWWWWWEEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!
BakaGaijin
11-11-2001, 08:33
As much as I love guns for their infinite usefulness, I try not to rely on them too much outside of SP. Just like monks. Too bloody easy. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
I played some games whan I started with out guns,only archers,and during the game the other player would write a comment,'No Guns',as if I were dense. well it did'nt take long ta find out how dense I was.
All you see in there now is a bunch a hill sittin,gun powder sniffin squaters.
Archers range should be much further than guns.
Also bring back the patch that renders the guns useless in rain weather.
This puts a card in the deck for the attacker. The deffender than would be left with 4 or 5 units of useless terrified powder packin peasants. Luck o the draw.
TeuTonic
make archers as strong as they really were, as a lot of people got hit in a volley, not one or two, samurai archers were good.
I think that's just the problem. They did that with the guns, took out too many in each volley. If you increased the kill count of archers they'd be as unbalanced as guns and they're also better at H2H (as far as I can make out - someone may know otherwise) although they're not great at it. This would make all units other than archers fairly useless. Oh, except BN who could creep up without them noticing.
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Fight first, then scream 'Doh, why did I forget my Kensi!'
[This message has been edited by Zone (edited 11-11-2001).]
the problem is the abuse of musks, cause i like the games with 2 or 3 of them. I am not agree that battle withany guns are so funny.....too fast
Paolai
Kraellin
11-12-2001, 22:31
i hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but bows did not have the same range as guns, even the old arq had a longer range than the best bows. even the old stw manual points out that guns had a longer range. i've recently had to study this aspect, (god, they're turning me into a history freak!) and the main advantages of the bow were much faster reload times, an arc to your shot for getting over walls and such, no slowdowns due to weather (unless maybe your bow string got wet and stretched), cheap are readily available materials for the bow and ammo, and a much lighter weight.
guns of that era were VERY slow to reload, relatively expensive and difficult to make, inaccurate, heavy, clumsy, and misfired often, especially in the wet.
the guns in the game do not really reflect all of this and also seem to use a musket that wouldnt have been around for about another 100 years. oh well, literary license, i guess :)
with we/mi you can easily change these values and make both guns more of what they shld have been when the dutch arrived in japan.
K.
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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.
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TeuTonic
[This message has been edited by clink (edited 11-30-2001).]
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TeuTonic
[This message has been edited by clink (edited 11-30-2001).]
[This message has been edited by clink (edited 11-30-2001).]
Chaguhun Khan
11-30-2001, 13:21
As a Mongol, I just can't use guns(but I can use gunpowder http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif).
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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans
Since this thread got bumped, I think it would be interesting to hear what everyone thinks of guns v. archers after the 1.02 patch.
Still think they're too strong? Think guns are too weak now? What do you base your opinion on? Have you experienced muskets in the rain and what to you think of their worth in THAT situation?
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Since this thread got bumped, I think it would be interesting to hear what everyone thinks of guns v. archers after the 1.02 patch.
Still think they're too strong? Think guns are too weak now? What do you base your opinion on? Have you experienced muskets in the rain and what to you think of their worth in THAT situation?
Speaking for myself, I've never been fond of them in the first place and was forced to use them based on current online tactics. With the 1.02 upgrade though, I'm VERY happy with the re-balance of guns. They can still be effective, but anyone using a gun heavy army is going to get smoked by someone who knows what they're doing.
If you take a single gun unit and a single archer unit at same honor, the guns will lose about 2/3 of their men by the time the archers run out of arrows. The guns will use about half of their ammo and kill about 1/3 of the archers.
The key now is how you as a player choose to deal with ranged battles. Do you focus on the other players ranged units, or do you leave them alone and go after the h-t-h troops guarding the ranged units? An un-molested Musket is still VERY effective and has good staying power as long as it is supported and protected.
My standard ranged contingent used to be comprised of 4 Muskets and 2 Archers. That has now reversed (although I'm still toying with the balance) and I've been bringing 4 archers and 2 muskets. I've also considered bringing 3 archers, 2 muskets and 1 arq if defending. The reason for this is that Arq's can't kill worth a damn at range, but are very powerful up close, making them more effective at close range (ie rushes of Cav charges) than either muskets or archers.
Overall, archers tend to be more effective ranges, muskets at more medium ranges and arq's at close range. Any combination of the 3 should afford significant firepower at virtually any range as long as it isn't raining. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Obake
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
With patch 1.02b, I recommend that the arq is worth a relook. arq4+1A is almost the same as musk2 in koku. Yes, they have shorter range, yes they reload slower. But their penetration power is twice that of musk. And they do not get decimated by rapid SA fire (as least better than musk). And given the higher honor, tends to route less easily.
Using them is tricky, but unlike prior-patch (which is basically a laughing piece of shit), they are now one useful unit on the ground, and in the hand of skillful general, can be a killing machine.
My 5 koku.
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tootee the toothless warrior (aka goldfish shimazu)
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Remember though tootee that arqs will be rendered completely useless in the rain, so they can be quite a gamble to take... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi
All units are balanced now, what's the problem? Guns still scare when shooting h-t-h units. Archers do a lot of damage to guns, overall they beat them.
So why not take a balanced army and see how a musket-archer combo will rule the world? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.
Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif
I tried to post this last night but it won't come up. http://members.aol.com/kllrkatnas/sampaper.htm If it fails just type Samurai Warfare on the MSN web site.
In it is interesting history of the Arquebus and Muskett in early Japan.
A MUST READ! to confurm a few arguments.
Kraelin is right with gun range to bow range.
In the article it says...
Bow-max range-380 meters effective killing range of only 80 meters.
Arquebus-max range-500 meters effective killing range of 200 meters.
I myself thought the opposite was true,but I've been wrong before.
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TeuTonic
[This message has been edited by clink (edited 12-01-2001).]
oZoNeLaYeR
12-01-2001, 10:36
eekkkkkkkk, where is it cant find it...
Quote Originally posted by oZoNeLaYeR:
eekkkkkkkk, where is it cant find it... [/QUOTE]
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Try typing samurai warfare on the msn web site.
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TeuTonic
[This message has been edited by clink (edited 12-01-2001).]
Kraellin
12-02-2001, 00:51
clink,
thanks. you can also find a number of sites that talk about muskets in general. it kind of surprised me how much info was available, but it seems that a number of musket 'clubs' abound across the world and these folks take their sport, and the history thereof, quite seriously. thus, there is a wealth of statistical data out there to be had. you can even find accuracy tables for a variety of these early guns where folks have set up targets in modern times to actually test these things. quite interesting at times.
while figuring out the gun modeling for this game i began to check on some of this historical data and also began modding my stats for these longer ranges and slower reloads. i tried to simulate the accuracy, reloads, distances, and power of these clunky old weapons as they 'might' have existed in sengoku japan. it makes for quite a different use of guns and for different game play. it's also somewhat regretably true that the game modeling doesnt allow for the right sort of accuracy and power curves that you'd find in these things. the tendency with the current gun model is that there is a very long straight line in the graphed results over medium short, medium and long distances and then a very sharp rise at very short as far as killing power. you can even get, at times, more kills at longer distances than at medium distances. the upshot of all this is that it makes longer range guns in the game somewhat odd as far as the results. and even though i personally like my longer range guns, i couldnt sell it to the group based on this. maybe i'll do a mod on my own and post them for folks to use.
i think the main secret of the guns used back then wasnt so much the killing power as it was the shock value and morale killing nature of a 'high explosive', long distance, armor piercing, horse scaring, tactical weapon. hearing this 'distant thunder' and then seeing your comrade drop dead next to you by an 'invisible' force was almost akin to magic when these things first showed up on the battlefield. troops reacted accordingly. you could even compare this somewhat with the effect the spaniards had when they invaded central america. the natives saw these 'creatures' with 2 heads that used god-like killing sticks. well, the two heads were the horse and rider's heads, but the natives had never seen a horse before so they thought it was all one 'beast'. the killing sticks were, of course, some sort of gun. thus, a rider on a horse using a gun was VERY disconcerting to a native of those times. the value wasnt in the killing power, it was in the shock or morale-deflating department.
i'm not sure how such a thing could be or possibly is, coded in stw, but i believe there is a morale hit given to an enemy hit by guns. perhaps this could be boosted if guns were given longer ranges but much longer reloads. guns would then be more representative of what they were and how they were used, if they were used at all, in sengoku japan.
K.
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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.
BakaGaijin
12-03-2001, 01:45
Yeah, them musket thingies are pretty popular. One of my friends and former bandmates owns an authentic 1803 musket which he occasionally uses for target shooting. It's damned nifty.
As for the historical usage of guns in Sengoku Japan: that can't be doubted. We know they were used, and sometimes in great number. And then there's Nagashino. Poor horsies. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
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