Sorta OT but...

[jLan]

I am considering acquiring Sun Tzu's Art of War. Has anyone read this? I know it's supposed to be a masterpiece, but I'm wondering how hard it is to read, and if its very interesting? Any comments would be greatly appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

If you have some other books dealing with great battles and the like I'd love to hear suggestions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mamushi]

I have read it. Actually it is quite an easy read,but the understanding can be a bit difficult, though not impossible. You may find alot of things applicable to todays world.

[solypsist]

yeah. it's sort of OT.

moved to Monastery.

[Kongamato]

It is quite easy to read. It becomes very interesting once you understand the principles and apply them to things like MTW and real life.

You also could read the whole thing on the internet at Sonshi.com (http://www.sonshi.com/), but that would spoil the whole "book" experience. Different versions of the book exist, and ironically the aforementioned site lists many of the best versions, their quality of translation, and what makes them unique. Check the buyer's guide out.

I have the common paperback version of the book with the Shi Huangdi tomb statue on the cover. It contains a large load of commentary that is useful in understanding the book. After most of Sun Tzu's statements are anecdotes or similar examples of the statement said by other generals of ancient China. I do not believe that other books have this. It makes the book easier to understand. Sonshi.com also has forums which debate over the meanings of each one of the statements too, in case you dont understand one of them.

[Vanya]

GAH

Vanya will share with youz a secret on the origins of this book.

Looong ago, olde man Tzu was tending to his herd of Shih Tzus. He was out in the field sipping sake and fell into a drunken stupor. While in this state, the mighty Horseman rode up to him and asked if He could take one of his Shih Tzus. The drunken man agreed, partly because he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing. Given that this herd of dogs belonged to the Emperor, it would have been certain death for the old man had the authorities found out.

To show His appreciation, Vanya spoke to the man about the art of lopping off heads during times of interpersonal hostilities.

When the man woke up the next day, he actually remembered everything and started reciting the words of the Horseman to those willing to listen. Eventually, the words spoken by the old man were written down, and have become known to the people of today as Sun Tzu's "Art of War".

The pen name "Sun Tzu" is just that... its not the fella's real name. The "sun" is for his relationship to the Emperor as Imperial dog groomer, and the "tzu" is for the fact that he tended to the Imperial Shih Tzus. Hence, "Sun Tzu", or "Imperial Shih Tzu Groomer".

Now, go forth, and bask in the glory of Vanya

GAH

[The_Emperor]

Sun Tzu's art of war is required reading for all military officers worldwide.

War may have changed a great deal but it still relies on the same principles.

And of course its tactics tie in well with STW and MTW.

A good read.

[Nowake]

The Art of War resumes the basic concepts, but try read Clausewitz.

[Crash]

"On War" by Clauswitz is also a classic, sort of the European counterpart to "The Art of War". Sun Tzu has a lot of quotable passages, probably because the book is a lot shorter and very general. "Art of War" is more in the realm of general principles, that's why a lot of people have read it who aren't necessarily into military history, because a lot of it can be metaphors for any kind of struggle or conflict, not just war. Both books are required reading at military academies all over the world.

I've read two translations of "Art of War", there are more out there. Some books have interpretations of the passages and additional historical background, but I like the one that is just a straight translation without the other fluff.

"On War" is more contemporary to the time that it was written in, the 18th century I believe, though I may be mistaken. So it has more recognizable historical content. Both books are fascinating. It would be nice if TW could someday incorporate the factors and principles included in these great works.

[DemonArchangel]

i have, it's a good book.

[Sjakihata]

The book is easy, the terms which "sun tsu" describes are hard.
I think more than one man wrote, I belive it was a bunch of chinese generals.

If you look for books describing big battles art of war is not something for you. it describes factors and concepts taht shoul be used in war. ie. how to wage war.

[Shahed]

Quite true. I think also that the translations are a bit weird, what makes sense in Chinese does not make sense in English if transliterated. The ancient way of writing makes it hard to understand some concepts at first glance, but after a while you get into it and everything is reasonably clear.

BTW for anyone interested in warfare this book is essential. So if don't have it I would recommend it strongly. I have a few copies at home, but I have one favorite which has good applications of the principles, I cant remember the name though, I'll post it tonight.

I would also strongly recommend:

Go Rin No Sho (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0517415283/ref=pd_sr_ec_cs_b/102-4028144-0256958?v=glance&s=books&st=*)

[Sjakihata]

Yes, a book of five rings are a very good read by Miyamoto Musashi.
He explains the techniques of the Ni Ten Ichi Ryu school and argues that if one man have studied and thus mastered strategy he can defeat 10.000 men.
Musashi had a combined of 60 duels, the first when he was 13, and he did not loose once. AFter 28 he retired and began to study strategy, which he says he did not master when he was 13-28. At 50 he understood strategy and wrote it down in the Go Rin No Sho.

It is very interresting but a little harder to comprehend than art of war, also it helps if you make a wooden or replica of a katana to practice some of the techniques.

Good luck

[Vanya]

GAH

[Man walks into theatre to see Wesley Snipes in "Art of War"]
[As Man walks in, he sees a geisha being harrassed by BANZAI lookalikes.]
[Geisha]: Get away from my kimono, you sick bastid
[Man]: Hey you You... go now [points finger to bathroom].
[BANZAI Lookalike 1]: BANZAI [Runs towards the Man]
[Man]: You punch me in face, I spit blood on your clothes.
[BANZAI Lookalike 2]: EWWW Hey, man, let go. We go now. Dat man pig
[The BANZAI lookalikes leave.]
[Geisha]: You are so brave You are so smart You saved me Are you a great warrior in this land?
[Man]: Me? Nooo Never fought a day in my life
[Geisha]: [Gawks]
[Man]: But I did stay at a Holiday Express once...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

GAH

[Nowake]

Da point Vanya, da point ...