Unit production questions?

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm playing the English on Normal (still). It's about 1175 and I own all of France, a little of Germany, Aragon and all of the British Isles - except the Isle of Man (but if it was on the map, that bizzitch would be mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). I'm making more money than Croesus now, so I'm wondering how I should spend it. All of this leads to my question:

How many people crank units out constantly in all of their provinces? - or even crank out elite units constantly?

My main armies are mostly made up of mercs and some bribed troops from early in the game. I concentrated so much on setting up trade and all the money enhancing stuff that I was broke for quite a while. Now I have a GNP of about 16K per turn and I've built castles in nearly all provinces, but haven't built a lot of the troop upgrades yet. I'm inclined to wait until I get to some of the really great units to start cranking armies out- especially since I would like to try a crusade with hand-picked troops (my first was a resounding failure - are there any negative outcomes from a failed crusade? other than losing the armies, I mean). I just wanted to get some opinions and strategies from other people....

[pdoan8]

Mercs cost a lots (twice the upkeep cost). May be that's why you are broke. Consider using less Mercs.

In the early stage of the campaign, I usually rely on 2 things to defend my provinces:
a) Tactics (cheesy or not, I just want to hold on whatever I have).
b) Massive number (lots of spearmen plus some archers and UM).

Also, here is the only time that I actually use lots of peasants (as human shield http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ).

Then I build up the economy. If I have some extra money, I will slowly replace the existing troops with better troops. The old troops now become the human shield as needed. Intead of disband the old troops, I would consider to use them to soften up the enemy before I send my more advance troops in. For me, that's very cost effective.

I usually have less than adequate army until around 1300-1350. Then I would have to spend the last 100 years trying to beat everyone else.

[frogbeastegg]

What pdoan8 says - use less mercs. In fact avoid mercs unless you have no choice. Not only are they expensive but you can't retrain them so they get outdated equipment (bad) and loose vast quantities of men just when they get to a highish valour (worse). Mercs are good for emergencies where you need troops now, maybe even yesterday. Otherwise just use your own men, they're cheaper and can be retrained so they survive to get really good valour after a few battles.

When I've done the initial scramble to take out immediate threats like the French if I'm English or the Almohads if I'm Spanish I will tech up to good troop production like I described in one of your other topics. I will then produce a dedicated defence army for each border province, slowly swapping out the crappy spearmen in favour of men at arms and sergeants who are supported by archers and the occasional unit of light cavalry. Once the border armies are secure I build some attacking armies with the best in spears, swords, bows and knights. These are given to my best generals and will do any attacking. After these armies are made I only produce new troops to replace losses or to garrison captured lands, usually peasants for non-frontier provinces. For hostile provinces I just advance the border army unless my border just got wider in which case I build a new border army.

I often find that bribed troops are rubbish like peasants so I disband them. However the good troops get put in an army led by a home grown general with high loyalty. The biggest problem with bribed troops is that they have low loyalty and had a 'bribed' vice that makes them cheaper for others to bribe (rare but it does occasionally happen).

How to spend your cash depends on several things. If you don't have at least four troop production centres capable of producing feudal troops (as I mentioned in a previous topic) then you should get building towards this. If you have plenty of troop production then you should train some troops to replace your mercs. I would suggest 4 feudal sergeants, 4 archers, 3-4 feudal men at arms and maybe a unit or two of cavalry like mounted sergeants. You can add units like kerns to this if you like. As you build these troops get rid of your mercs e.g. train 1 spearman, sack one spearman merc. Ok so you've done that, next I would suggest making sure you have most of the sea covered by ships so you have plenty of trade income as well as great manoeuvrability. After this you should build up some really good attacking armies consisting of your best and brightest troops and attack someone. Try to narrow your borders down so you only need a few armies to guard them. For example you could attack Spain next, along with the Almohads depending on the health of these two factions. Conquer your way down to Morocco and you will have gained 7 rich provinces and cut a two province border down to a one province border.

When you have cash always build the best units of their type. For example don't cut corners and use plain spearmen when you can pay a bit more for feudal sergeants. One of the joys of the campaign is in using the best units that cost a fortune with full upgrades and just slaughtering the enemy. The whole point of playing the Turks in late is to use their expensive Janissary heavy infantry, quite possibly the best infantry in the game.

Waiting for better troops before building a proper army can be very risky. You are still quite along way from 1205 and the chivalric units so I would build feudal ones for now. It is easy fairly cheap to swap in chivalric troops for your feudal ones when they are available. This will also give you an army or two that you can send to attack without being so concerned about casualties.

Crusades, big subject this. OK, a failed crusade will cost the king who sent it influence because he just made a prat out of himself on the world stage. This can cause a hit to loyalty across the kingdom. Crusades are expensive so you have lost a pile of cash for no gain, not good. How to have a successful crusade:
1. Build up a large quantity of good troops, no mercs, peasants or crap like that, just good solid feudal or better troops. Avoid armour upgrades and any unit with more than 5 in armour, as they will be cooked under the desert sun.
2. Build a chain of ships from a province of yours with a port to the destination. This is important as it allows you to send the crusade to it's target in one turn preventing desertion and sucking up of your troops.
3.Build your crusade marker, preferably in a coastal province with a port connected to the chain of ships.
4.Target your crusade. Immediately put all those troops you trained in the crusade. For heavens sake, DON'T put your king in it That would cause all kinds of problems that you don't want to encounter, trust me Also don't put your heir to the throne in. Now move it to it's target which it will reach in one turn because of the ships.
5. Kill the infidel
It's a long build up because it needs to be. A failed crusade looses you plenty and gains you nothing. Remember crusades can hold at least 32 units so don't be afraid to build two armies worth of troops.

You're doing well, keep it up and you should win (See you in your next topic http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif )

[Inigo Montoya]

FBE - once again a thorough and very informative answer. Thanks a bunch (as usual) Between the two long answers you've given me on building strategy and troop strategy, I think you've created something worthy of the Table of Contents... I'm sure a lot of other people would find the information valuable, whether they are new players or not. If any of the moderators read this, I wonder if they can merge this thread and the "Is there a simplified Unit/Structure flow chart?" thread. These two threads (minus the Princess Bride discussion) are very complementary of one another, and your answers are good basic advice IMO.

Thanks again.

[frogbeastegg]

Thank you Inigo Montoya I'm always happy to help, especially so in this case as I can remember having similar problems when I was new to Total War. I made enough mistakes to fill several posts in the 'Exactly how bad are you?' topic. If you want details go over to the entrance hall and read it, it's good for a laugh.

I can't believe someone wants my work in the table of contents I've no objection if any mod wants to stuff it in there, in fact it would be an honour. I think it's probably a bit unlikely though. Although if you want to start a topic called 'The collected questions of Inigo Montoya' I won't mind copying my posts over if you think it will help.

I know that you will have at least one more topic left; I want to hear about it when you win. See you then http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Inigo Montoya]

See, my argument for your inclusion in the Table of Contents goes a little something like this:

When I first started asking for help, lots of people pointed me to the TC and, while there was a LOT of great information there, there wasn't anything that essentially amounted to "A Beginner's Guide to Total War" - or "Total War for Dummies," if you prefer. I had absolutely no clue whatsoever with regard to what I was supposed to be doing, so I couldn't really appreciate topics like unit comparisons or preventing inquisitions or the effects of excommunication. I needed some tips on starting out so I could understand why nothing was working for me and all of my decisions were bad, rather than just stumbling along blindly and lucking into a good result but never knowing why.

At any rate, I think your answers could serve as a very useful "Total War Primer" for people who have no exposure to this series of games at all - which is something that is missing from the Table of Contents.... If nothing else, it worked for me. Thanks a bunch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[jLan]

On my old french campaign (hard), i was making elite troops every turn... Chivalric Knights in toulouse, knights templar in tripoli (modded them buildable in outremer - reward for crusading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif also raised upkeep cost mind you) turcopoles in that province that gives em bonus, chiv. foot knights in ile de france, arbalesters in aragon, and pikemen over at switzerland (didn't get to SAP's at the time)

It had to be my most successfull campaign ever.. things just went my way. Went the first 50 years without waging war on anyone but english and rebels, and acquired a lot of lands, specifically in eastern europe. Was making 14.000 a year. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Bunch of fun sending full stacks with elite troops only, with my 9 star (bribed) general in charge http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[frogbeastegg]

You are right Inigo Montoya, there is no beginners guide to Total War on the org, or anywhere on the net as far as I know. There is a definite need for one.

:Takes deep breath: I decided at 12:18 GMT last night to write one (I was trying to get to sleep darnit ) I will try to cover all the basics of the campaign map and some basic tips for the battle map. :Frog thinks she must be crazy to do this:

Why am I being crazy enough to do this? Firstly as I have said there is no beginners guide. Inigo is not the only one I have seen asking for help because the scale of MTW is so overwhelming when you are new. I can remember clearly just how confused and lost I felt when I began playing TW so I know what information is needed. Secondly I'm doing it because I can, after nearly a year of reading and playing I can actually offer useful advice I know that there are players who like to find everything out themselves, but there are also gamers who want to read a guide before they get started so the time blundering around unaware of what you are supposed to be doing is minimalised. I am one of the second type, but there is so little to read I had to waste a lot of my limited time doing stupid things. I won't deny that it was enjoyable but TW did get frustrating when I failed and didn't know why. I would have enjoyed my early TW days much more if I had a beginners guide to read and confer with. Thirdly I am on holiday from university. If I wasn't writing this guide, along with several stories and collaberating on another project I would probably spend my time reading books, playing games and drawing. Everyone knows that those enjoyable activities are fun, after spending so long in the education system I am allergic to fun Good old British working attitude - I passed all my exams with flying colours, I don't deserve a break, must work even harder http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Here's my suggested index:
1. Getting started
1.1 Useful resources (patches, berserks unit tool etc)
1.2 What to practise before starting a main game (tutorials, read the manual etc)
1.3 Choosing your faction, difficulty and era
2.The campaign game
2.1 Your main aims (Overall goals apart from kill em all)
2.2 Buildings and the tech tree (what to build, where to build etc)
2.3 Armies (When to build, what to build etc)
2.4 Mercenaries
2.5 Finances and provinces( trade, farming, resources etc)
2.6 Securing your borders
2.7 Diplomacy
2.8 The Pope (excommunication etc)
2.9 Agents
2.10 War (Where and when to attack, what to aim for etc)
2.11 Events (dates for high/late, the Mongols etc)
2.12 Crusades and Jihads
3. The battle map
3.1 Basic aims (what you should try to do when attacking/defending)
3.2 Unit types (the whole rock/paper/sissors thing)
3.3 The landscape (advantage of hight etc)
3.4 Generals and kings (Jedi Generals explained, along with king killing tips)
3.5 When to fight and when to withdraw
3.6 Sieges
3.7 Tactics and fighting styles (how to use the different religions armies, basic tactics etc)
4. Moving to intermediate
4.1 Define your own victory (use your own goals)
4.2 Where to go now (links to the table of contents etc)

Have I missed anything? Is there anything people want to see added? If so put it on this topic and I will consider adding it. Bear in mind this is aimed at beginners so I don't want to make it too advanced.

This is going to take at least several days to write. I will post it here in the main hall when it is done. The topic will be called A Beginners Guide to Total War, maybe if it is good enough someone will be kind enough to sticky it or something.

This is frogbeastegg, starting to write an very, very long guide. (Heaven help me, I must be crazy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif )

[Inigo Montoya]

Quite the ambitious goal you've set for yourself Good luck with it. If you need someone to proof it and give you some suggestions, I'd be more than glad to help. I haven't played enough yet to offer any real assistance with the guide itself, but I can certainly handle spelling, grammar, etc. - and give opinions from a "clueless" perspective.

I would be really interested in the battle guide. I find that the in-game tutorials aren't a whole lot of help when you are suddenly commanding 8-16 units against a similarly sized opponent. Plus, those tutorials seem to be set up to give the player a rather easy victory.

Good luck with your endeavor - let me know if I can help in any way.

IM