Byzantine Lancers

[DemonArchangel]

What's the point of byzantine lancers when you've got pronoai allagion, kataphraktoi and the excellent Byzantine Cavalry?

[Mega Dux Bob]

They and the horse archers are what the Byzantines are really supposed to be using in this period. The Byz army in the game really belongs to the Byz Empire of the Dark Ages.

[Hurin_Rules]

They're cheap and easier to build.

Unlike the Pronai, you can make them in the early period.

Unlike Byzantine Cav, they are pretty effective in melee. They would therefore be better at breaking units with a charge and chasing down retreating units. On the other hand, they don't have bows, so Byzantine cav are still better at skirmishing and supporting melee with archery.

[ShadesPanther]

i use them to catch those pesky HA as they go about the same speed and i dont ose my PA cav for something trivial

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ July 22 2003,14:32)]Unlike the Pronai, you can make them in the early period.
One can build Pronoai in the Early period.

[DemonArchangel]

true dat.

Lancers are actually post-manzikert kavallarnoi
or pre-manzikert thematic cavalry.

Anywho, in MTW, if you're playing byz, it's almost like manzikert never happened.

[Hurin_Rules]

Ah oops, yep, you can make Pronai in early. My bad.

Lancers are still cheaper though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Oaty]

I've notice they have a very strong charge in the game and should have the strongest charge in the game for historical reasons. There lances had a longer reach than most spears and spear type weapons. There initial charge would massacre the frontline of an army but after that they were an inferior unit due to the lance being cumbersome and the fact that most of them were sticking out the backs of the enemy. After the initial impact they would have to result to there swords maces or whatever weapon they had at there disposal, leaving them vulnerable to soldiers with wepons of a longer reach. Unfortanetely the game engine does not support the changing of weapons after a charge.

[Hakonarson]

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone know what pronoai allagion are supposed to be based on? I've never ehard of the term outside MTW.

Oaty - that's all very well in theory, but it didn't work in practice. Byzantine cavalry weer always oputclassed in the charge by western knights - spear length notwithsatnding.

`A mounted Kelt [i.e. Frank] is irresistible,' wrote the Byzantine Anna Komnene; `he would bore his way through the walls of Babylon'.

[Pedders]

The pronoiars were smallholders, soldier-farmers in the old Roman republic style. Landless men were recruited with the promise of one of these holdings for life upon completion of military service. Allagia was a term for provincial military units.

i.e. Soldier farmers from the provinces

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Pedders @ July 23 2003,05:35)]The pronoiars were smallholders, soldier-farmers in the old Roman republic style. Landless men were recruited with the promise of one of these holdings for life upon completion of military service. Allagia was a term for provincial military units.

i.e. Soldier farmers from the provinces
This perplexes me: also the game unit description states that Pronoai Allagions were paid in land rather than cash. Why the high upkeep cost for these units then? They should be darned cheap to maintain...

[jLan]

Because it would still cost the state income (ie with less farms you make less money) however the game has no way to reflect this, so it gives you a high upkeep cost instead.

[Mak]

The high upkeep cost will be to match; the cost of the unit maintenance to the value of the unit in the game, not the cost of land to gold.

Does land not have to be paid for? It has a monetary value.

If maintenance units were set at historic realistic costs then Jannisary slave units some of the best units in the game would be free http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

[DemonArchangel]

True. Oh, and i still think lancers are useless.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (jLan @ July 23 2003,09:24)]Because it would still cost the state income (ie with less farms you make less money) however the game has no way to reflect this, so it gives you a high upkeep cost instead.
no reason to dig into the state income. you just grab more land to give to your pronai's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) it's the medieval times http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif)

[jLan]

Yeah, but most of the land was already held by nobility anyway..

[Galestrum]

*waves to Lan* matters what time period you are talking about

Pronia were alot more than farmer-soldiers and small holding soldiers. They were first instituted around the riegn of alexius comnenus and grew in popularity in the latter empire.

They were funded through taxes, pariokoi (peasants), land rights and properties and other ways and was granted by the emperor and were absentee landlords most likely. They were the "idealized byzantine soldier" of the late empire. They could native byzantines OR foriegn in origin.

They were described by a Byzantine contemporary as "well-eqiupped and well-trained native horsemen, the most aristocratic of soldiers, who derived his livelihood not from vulgar pay, but from incomes of land"

They were a reserve force but a part of the field army (tagmata)

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (Pedders @ July 23 2003,05:35)]The pronoiars were smallholders, soldier-farmers in the old Roman republic style. Landless men were recruited with the promise of one of these holdings for life upon completion of military service. Allagia was a term for provincial military units.

i.e. Soldier farmers from the provinces
So they're the Kavallarioi?

Manouel I (1143-1180) trained them to charge in western style.

[Galestrum]

Quote[/b] ]So they're the Kavallarioi?

No, but most Kavallarioi were Pronoiars - Kevallarioi was an ethnic distinction, whereas Pronoiars was a renumeration or payment distincton.

[Hakonarson]

How was Kavallarioi ethnic?

[DemonArchangel]

errrr... well the byzantine lancers if they aren't kavallarnoi are probably just thematic cavalry.

[Mega Dux Bob]

Quote[/b] (DemonArchangel @ July 24 2003,11:47)]errrr... well the byzantine lancers if they aren't kavallarnoi are probably just thematic cavalry.
Wouldn't 'straddoti' (or something like it), be the correct title for them and thier holding?

[DemonArchangel]

Stratatoi?? dunno, but they're a heavily armored cavalry that fought primarily with swords as they do in my version of the game.

[Galestrum]

Quote[/b] ]How was Kavallarioi ethnic?

Kavallarios (def)- semi-official title applied to certian western europeans in imperial service.... The Late Byzantine Army, Bartusis

It was used in general to designate western mercs of knightly status (heavy cav) - thus its an ethnic term (where they are from, their culture, etc)

[Galestrum]

what description does CA use for byz lancers?

[Hurin_Rules]

Kavallarios certainly looks like a Latin term that has been adopted by the Greeks. The Latin word Caballus (horse) became the root of the Spanish Caballero, French Chevalier/Chivalerie and the English Chivalry. All these were terms used to describe knights, heavy armoured cavalry that fought with lances and swords. The etymology therefore supports the idea of an 'ethnic' (by which you mean, I suspect, non-Greek?) origin of the Kavallarios. I would bet the word was used to describe Western knights serving Byzantium as mercenaries.

[DemonArchangel]

Well what IS the point of byzantine lancers? except as a cheap alternative to pronoiai allagi0n and kataphraktoi.

[Leet Eriksson]

the point is,the byz lack a proper medium cavalry(ie Ghulams,Armenians,Mounted Serjents),so the Byz lancers replace them,also i would feild them just for the charge factor alone.

[Lazul]

I use them mostly for flanking. But still... Pronos are still better, and if i can build them i will.
But since i modded my game and made the lancers faster(less armor) and having more charge power, I use them all the time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[DemonArchangel]

i modded the lancers to have kataphraktoi style charge and faster speed, cuz the byzantines lack a good light horseman.

[Leet Eriksson]

Alans are plenty,but looks like some players don't use the mercenaries as it was historically depicted... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Hakonarson]

AFAIK Kavallarioi was a term used quite early in the Byzantine era - eg the 7th-10th centuries, for the "native" cavalry also sometimes called kataphractoi - but not fully armoured like the later Kataphractoi.

I have also sen references to descendants of Norman mercenaries refering to themselves as Kavallarioi in hte 12th-13th centuries.

[Nowake]

You refer to the normans that came to Byzantium?

[vodkafire]

I think he refers to the Normans who conquered Sicily and Naples