Log in

View Full Version : Dogs and pre-industrial war/pics



clovenhoof
07-23-2003, 07:33
Another thread really helped fire my interest in this topic- something I am already very much into. Following is some information and links that you may find interesting.

http://www.boerboel.de/Neue%20Hundeseiten/Shop/Video/Cane%20Corso2.jpg


http://www.wtv-zone.com/Hahnsflyboys/pics/mara5.jpg

A little history:
The dog that most people talk about when talking about war-dogs is the Molossus. The Molossus gets its name from the Molossi, the ruling tribe of Epirus, a country of ancient Greece. The Romans conquered the area and being impressed with the Molossus, began to further breed and develop it. Above is a picture of the modern breed Cane Corso whom breeders tell us is the same dog the Romans developed from the Molosser: The Canis pugnax.

http://www.bc-mastiffs.com/bcmastiffpictures/herc10.jpg

http://wtv-zone.com/Hahnsflyboys/pics/gaulD16.jpg


Yet the Canis pugnax was not the perfect wardog and when the Romans fought in ancient Britain the encountered the celts own wardog- The Mastiff, picutred above. The Romans were so impressed by the dog that they took it to Rome and developed it further.

Historians and Cynologists agree that the Celts probably got the dog from Phonecian traders- long before the Romans came- and bred it on from there.





The Celts use of the Mastiff in battle- and the subsequent English use of the same- is extensive and very well documented.

The Mastiff is an ancient, ancient breed that has been all over the world. It is brought by traders or by war and usually bred with local breeds to develop the molosser or mastiff breeds we have today. Look at the proportion of the people to the dogs in the photos and compare them to the proportion of dog/peron in the depictions of the dogs- depictions that were made the same time the dogs were in such use. The proportions are almost identical.

The mastiff and the Roman Canis pugnax stem from the same roots. There is evidence of Mastiff-like giant dogs dating back as far as 2500 BC in the mountains of Asia. So when we talk about the history of dogs in war, we are essentially speaking about the history of the molosser as a family of breeds.

Looking at the weight, height and tempermental traits of modern breeds which are developed from the Molosser, we see that the dog can be as large as 250 pounds, can stand 6' on its back legs, are extremely extremely tough, and are amazingly tenacious. A properly trained and bred dog will not stop attacking unless it receives damage to its head or its heart or until it bleeds out. Police reports about k-9 officers being shot dozens of times and still not giving up as well as documented veternary reports from dog-fighting pits bear out the above as fact. Anyone who knows dogs will tell you truthfully that a good dog is better protection than a gun.

So there is a quick summary of the history of molossers- war-dogs. If you want to know more, and in more detail as far as actual battles and so forth check out these links:


http://www.mastiffweb.com/history.htm
http://www.mastiffgilardi.com/inglese/razza_sub/storia.htm http://mastiff.org/faq/mhistory.mv
http://www.canecorsoitaliano.net/uhist.htm
http://www.natas.nl/geschiedenis2.htm

and last but not least, the granddaddy of all Molosser sites:

http://www.moloss.com/

Molossers belong in anything like a historicaly accurate war game concerning pre-industrial times. While we probably shoulden't see perfect block-formation units of dogs marching around we should see at least some troops with mastifs at their sides. THAT would be historicaly accurate as most documented history concerning specific events in which war-dogs participated depict the dog as being at the side of an officer or commander or a person of nobility- a sign of status as much as an important tool and weapon.


Oh...this is a good link too, though it has nothing to do with dogs:

http://www.centenaryarchers.gil.com.au/history.htm

More pics:

http://www.mastino-von-der-alzau.de/Battaglia.jpg

http://www.mastino-von-der-alzau.de/16.jpg

Cazbol
07-23-2003, 07:51
Interesting reading. Thank you.

MonkeyMan
07-23-2003, 09:02
Good work Clovenhoof very interesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Don't think i'd mess with that one at the top he looks angry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

oblivious maximus
07-23-2003, 12:01
Good work Clovenhoof,Thanks.

khurjan
07-23-2003, 16:03
nice work

havent seen historical work like this for a long time thats why i never bothered to post topics like this

clovenhoof
07-23-2003, 23:53
Thanks for reading this, I am glad you guys liked it. Working dogs (working as in military/police/protection) are a passion of mine and I enjoyed reseraching and compiling the contents of the topic.

MonkeyMan, the angry looking dog is a badass- there are plenty of other molosser breeds today that are its equal or better.

Check out these guys-

http://www.dog.co.il/bandog.jpg
The Bandog- the result of the fforts of 20/21fst century breeders to further perfect the molosser.

http://dl.dogomania.com/pics/31/rottweiler_bez_smyczy.jpg

http://members.aol.com/jenecks/th-working.jpg

http://ultimatek9.com/images/mirkobitechuck.jpg
The Rottweiler. Commonly agreed by trainers to have the hardest bite of all dogs. This is a truely great breed. I personaly own two and they have been the best companions I have ever had, human or animal.


http://www.fila.org/images/dino.jpg

http://www.fila.org/images/filacow.jpg

http://www.worldclassk9.com/Resources/mainfil.jpg

The mighty Fila Brasilero. When word of this once exotic breed started to cross the working-dog circuit, the Fila was said to be a super dog and stories of it were greatly exagerated. While not 500 pounds and the size of two men, the Fila is the very best of all protection dogs. They have been bred to perfection as traits which trainers work years to bring out of even well-trained breeds occur naturaly in the Fila. This is known as Ojeriza. The Fila will always be gentle and docile to its family and will show extreme caution around strangers. One false move and the stranger is history. At 200-250 pounds, standing about 6' tall, and with incredibly tenacity and intellegence, they are more than a match even for a large armed man. Check out http://www.fila.org/ for more info on them. Some of the stories of Filas are so amazing they might not seem to be true, but actual research will bear them out.

Thats all for now

DemonArchangel
07-24-2003, 17:59
Let slip the dogs of war.

Mamushi
07-26-2003, 00:18
Now I know why I like cats http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Gregoshi
07-26-2003, 03:20
clovenhoof, you post needs to go for a walk. Forget the pooper-scooper - you'll need a snow shovel. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

Oaty
07-26-2003, 04:04
dont know how to qoute a pic so click on the link

http://www.fila.org/images/dino.jpg

and heres the line that comes to mind.....

whos your daddy ....... whos your daddy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif