lahll's promiss

[1dread1lahll]

Today I had the displeasure to host a 3v3 in which my opponent used the swipe 'bug', ive gotten to the point where playing is less of a disire that I will 'live with it' and terminated the game, I make a promiss now...if its used in a game that I host again ill do the same as soon as I see it. I also promiss to be rude about it, The use of other 'cheezy' tactics may bring about the same results. Dont turn the post into a discussion on the subject,(subject is closed to me), just dont come to a game hosted by me if you cant live without it.

[tootee]

yes some just cannot play the game without that single cav row swipe.. tbey feel insecure.. they dont realise many dont use this technique simply because it makes the game boring if all start using it..

nothing dishonourable about using the single row cav swipe.. just that imo it make games less fun.

however I think a two rows cav swipe may be justifiable, since its much less devastating, and a good compromise for the two camps of players.

my 5 cents.

[Vanya]

GAH

What is this "swiping" thing? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

GAH

[tootee]

some call it "wiping out the enemy with an s *ass* in front"

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[baz]

tough choice to make, imo its very hard to regulate the swipe bug, did you warn this person before the game about your rules?

[1dread1lahll]

From now on ill host games that say no swipe as many host no artillery, I expect the honorable players will honor the games limits as STW people honored 4 max and no red zone or no Ashi.
As for what it is Vanya Im not sure of the mechanics of it but....any unit can swipe but cav is the practical one.
The swiped unit needs to be moving and not attacking the swiper unit,(just running to some other destination) the swiper must not be attacking either but needs to intersect the swiped unit (you click behind it) The swiper intersects from the front from anywhere on the swiped unit(except front). Several secounds pass before the 2 engage in fighting each other. In those few secounds the swiper inflicts massive kills. It appears that the swiper is enjoying a bonus in those few secounds that was not intended...perhaps the 'target is routing' bonus. The duration of the swipe (and thus the effectiveness of it) can be increased by placing the swiper in a single line. As soon as the 2 units engage in fighting, the swiper and swiped unit converge on each other and the 'marching quickly' tags disappear and are replaced with combat tags like 'winning easily' etc.. and the massive kills stop. But by then the damage is done and most often the swiped unit is routed. This effect is like the old red zone in Shogun, an unintended game feature, and like that feature moves players out of the arena of 'testing ones skills' to one of who knows the most crap...

[Dionysus9]

For some reason it appears the "swiping" unit is getting multiple charge bonuses without having to stop or slow down. It just ploughs through the enemy as if it wasn't even there--except it leaves a pile of dead bodies behind it.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if its an accident, but othertimes it is obviously intentional.

I agree that it is not "dishonorable", but I feel it is extremely "discourteous." It is not a gentlemans way to fight a battle.

I support lahlls decision, although I think it has some viable uses-- overcoming the pavs insane resistance to cav charges, for example. I won't be using it, though, because as I said-- it is discourteous.

[Aelwyn]

To elaborate a bit on lahll's explanation...the swipe is performed when the leader of a unit is not engaged. Thats why it is done in a single line. Since the leader of the unit is almost always in the center, having more men between him and either end of the unit means more damage. The leader of the unit continues on for a few seconds, and the other men engaged try to catch up to him, actively ploughing through whoever is in their path.

[tootee]

basically why the swipe is so effective with cav is because:

1. Their high charge speed+bonus and multiple kill in one combat round during charge phase. Quote from Longjoin:

Quote[/b] ]A unit that has been charging for a short while (second or two) counts as charging. It also builds up some impetous based on how long it's been charging (though I think it's capped at around 3 secs). When a charging soldier hits an enemy he fights him. If he wins (pushes him back or kills hum), and doesn't suffer a push back himself, he carries on moving forwards, and fights anymore enemy he hits (including ones that he's just hit and pushed back). Each time he fights he loses a little impetus, and when he runs out he doesn't count as charging anymore, and has to fight in the normal way. The result of all this is that a charging soldier can fight (and maybe kill) several enemies in a short period of time. I guess that in some cases units with a higher charge speed could hit more enemy in a given time, and do more damage.

Single line just make available the maximum number of horses to this effect.

2. (I think) CA tried to solve the swipe issue by making unit unable to carry on moving forward when its banner bearer got 'stuck', i.e. running into enemy which it is not selected to attack. You can see that the whole unit just stuck there for few seconds before becoming engage (do they get any charge bonus then?). If the banner bearer run into enemy, the swipe effect is reduced. So in VI, to make a good swipe, the banner bearer must avoid hitting enemy to ensure some cav is able to move to enemy rear. *oops * http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif

3. I see no point in select any unit to attack the single line swiping cav coming from the sides.. they will just go for the banner bearer and in the process expose their flank to the swiping enemy cav. Swiping can be stopped if your unit can intercept the banner bearer almost facing flatly.

This is what I think is happening.

[LadyAnn]

I believe swiping is the effect that the "charge bonus" timer starts only when the standard bearer is engaged. That timer goes expired a few second later. That may explain why the swipe effect stops a few second after the unit is engaged, and I found the interval to be same as the charge interval.

For the unit being swiped, it was not yet engaged, it has no charge bonus. The men that actually fight are usually those got flanked penalty as well, because the enemy's standard bearers are front-to-front, but the swiper's side are flanking.

For the swiping unit, the charge bonus last the extra time between the first swiping man touch the enemy man to the standard-bearer got engaged. This is like you can kill but the enemy cannot kill you back.

Tootee was correct by saying that to nullify the effect of swiping, one must meet the swiping standard-bearer ASAP. Then it becomes an ordinary h2h combat.

But if I have a unit that is flanking the swiper, I wouldn't click on the swiper to attack it, but set way point beyond it, so that my unit would play domino with the swiper unit. It actually works well even against non-swipers (such as the line of pav.arb.), whereas attacking by the flank at the edge of the string by clicking on the unit would only make your unit trying to attack the standard bearer.

I think the whole thing about identifying the standard bearer as the unit itself is the root of all misery.

I think men that are of certain distance from the standard bearer should have morale and combat penalties for not able to be of shouting distance from their captain and taking proper orders. That would help reduce the swiping effect. Also, charge bonus and flanking bonus shouldn't be applied if the standard-bearer is not engaged.

Annie

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (LadyAnn @ July 25 2003,16:40)]Also, charge bonus and flanking bonus shouldn't be applied if the standard-bearer is not engaged.

Annie
Thats the key AnnieP, thats the key.

[Swoosh So]

And ca remain blind?

[RTKLamorak]

not blind.. they just dont give a s**t http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif sorry for that remark, but when i can no longer stand to play my favorite game because of all the rubbish (not necessarily the swipe, more so the bugs/out of sync, but the swipe doesnt help matters http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif) that would take less than a week to fix it starts to seriously, seriously wind me up. ive never witnessed such terrible customer support in all my life, no company has ever refused to fix a product ive brought... ever ive now heard rumours of a patch, but have decided to not even get my hopes up as CA are bound to give the multi play community the usual 2 fingers we're used to seeing http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ... sighs... I refuse to come back to online play till CA sort it out... i mean geez what is the problem. It isnt money (MTW raked it in), isnt technical (all the bugs are just shoddy work.. fixable by even community memebers but we need an "official" patch else community is split AGAIN) so what is it? the more i think about it the less answers there seems to be http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Dionysus9]

The only answer I've been able to come up with is this:

When shoggy came out there was a CA conference to decide how much effort to put into the MP side. One of the big whigs (big boss man) decided to put more effort into SP because MP "was only 1% of purchasers."

Now Mr. Big Boss Man has to make sure that MP stays a small percentage of purchases so he can still look good and look like he made the right decision in the beginning. So he self-destructs the MP side to make it a self-fulfilling prochecy and to make himself the prophet.

This has nothing to do with LJ or any of the other "workers"--this is some problem they have at the highest levels in their company.

That is the only thing that makes sense.

[RTKLamorak]

yea i guess that makes sense bacchus ... frustration seems to cloud my mind http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif . im sure the main "workers" must be sad to see there MP community being &^*^&* on from a great height to. still sad tho http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Tomisama]

I’m kinda tired. Maybe that’s why I don’t get it?

Just talking about cavalry verses infantry in general.

You have a guys on a horses charging a line of infantry. As soon as they make contact, the horsemen screech to a halt. That’s what, 35-40 mph to 0 mph in one second, and fight one on one. It’s not only impossible, it’s ridicules But that’s what happens in this game

I believe in real life, the horsemen would plow right through the line (thinking now in terms of 3 deep range units), emerging virtually unscathed. Their impact however, would be devastating. Each horseman would stand a fair chance to land at least one killing blow while passing through the three lines. Those not killed by the riders or trampled by their horses, would be forced to scatter in terror, and would not be fighting back

I’m not in favor of using game bugs, and would never intentionally do that. But it at least sounds like the swipe bug produces something closer to real life. Ya think?

[baz]

thats a good point tomi .. but look at it this way should swiss halbs standing there ground with long pole arms not take down a horse each too?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif i can easily take out a whole unit of swiss halbs without suffering severe losses http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif surely thats not right

[Shahed]

Well the swipe can be used successfuly on almost any unit.

It is realistic that you would not be wanting to stand in the face of galloping cavalry, any more than you would like to step out on a motorway. The result would be similar.

However the key problem is as Baz described. The best anti-cav units in the game (like JHI) cannot hold out against a successful swipe. I think this is somewhat unrealistic. A polearmed unit, standing stationary in defensive position should be able to absorb more of a cavalry charge than they can if they are swiped. Under normal circumstances a cavalry unit must repeatedly charge an anti cav unit to achieve decent kills from charge, as in melee the anti cav will win. if you do not have to repeatedly charge, and can just swipe through whatever unit comes your way, it's unrealistic.

[Tomisama]

Oh yes, I absolutely agree. The swipe bug is unrealistic in the full sense. I’m really talking concepts here. The idea that what is now an accidental bug, could be used conceptually, to maybe someday improve the realism of cavalry.

I’m sure someone somewhere is having to rethink the effects of charging cavalry as they consider the effects of chariots and elephants http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[baz]

and i do think you have a good point Tomi, its still just a little too much for me .. when you are playing a good game and you do some match ups you will be very disapointed to loose any anti cav unit vs cav unit battle.

im not going to spell it out but you just have to use different methods http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[DoggFood]

Oh what a wonderful idea to stop people from swiping, Just tell everyone how to do it That should make less people use it.

[baz]

well the cat is out the bag now inda .. so its got to this point but nevermind you just have to deal with it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Krasturak]

The die is cast,

the jig is up;

the goose is cooked,

and the cat is out of the bag.

[shingenmitch2]

I'm not trying to annoy anyone, but worrying about the sweep is pointless...

It's a tactic, it's there, and both sides can use it equally... thus things are even and fair.

And with all the reductions in cavalry over the past couple of patches/versions it is about the only thing that makes cavalry still a viable threat to lone infantry these days -- when swords in the 15k game will beat cavalry head-2-head (you can't afford hi-valor cav. so u get V1 cav vs. V3 CMAA and it loses or darn near loses), Cav no longer get battlefield up grades, they are 40 man units up against many 100 man units and lots of 60-man units. Hell, cavalry can't even make pavaise x-bows run w/o sweeping. And if the cav does stop, it gets diced pretty fast by any Mil. Sgt. unit.

The sweep effect has been lessened in VI... the unit gets stuck much more often. Additionally, to make it work requires a lot of micro management and you need to be catching some stupid infantry with its flank to you -- so you're enemy has already made a mistake.

The tactic is not some sort of be-all-end-all either. I've never seen someone "swipe" another's entire army into a loss. At best it kills individual units that, in most cases, have been carelessly left by themselves and unsupported.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I am not sure I would follow Mitch all the way, and for sure not about it's 'even and fair', but there is one thing which got me somehow concerned, and that's the cure to be worse than the problem...

Cav will be less powerfull without swipe, and as life is already difficult for cav in 15k environment (although not as tough as for spears in 15k environment), this may reduce cav effectiveness a little bit too much.

I don't know what the solution is, and even if the problem will be fixed in the coming patch, but I am interested in knowing how it would be fixed...

Louis,