The Next Total War?

[Laelius]

I did a search, and didn't find anything pertaining to this...

As an ancient history major, I've been anxiously awaiting a Total War game focused on Rome and the ancient world since Shogun was first released. As excited as I am for RTW's imminent release, I can't help but ponder, what's next?

For the RTW Expansion:
- The Conquest of Italy
- The Fall of Rome
- The Persian Wars
- Alexander

For the next in the TW Series:
- Imperial Age (approx. 1500 - 1800)
- Napoleonic Wars
- American Civil War

Anyone else want to throw down some ideas?

[Duraz_asks]

for one the thought of only guns in this game is a very boring thought.. ya maybe u through some cav and some long spear to keep away the cav oops what do u got a game fairly similar to shogun.. i think there needs to ba chinese version and a full on mongol version where the streategy map is japal portugal all the known world and u can be any known power of the khans time 1150 to 1450( a little beyond the khans time) also a american indian one would be kewl fight other indian tribes for 200 years then have the europeans invade and fight them off for hundreds of years and have the strategy map be the americas...(have aztec and mayan wars with spanish...

[KukriKhan]

There's some discussion of this in this page 3 topic:
http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....;t=9131 (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=9131)

Welcome to the Org, Laelius http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

Quote[/b] (Laelius @ July 28 2003,22:48)]- American Civil War
NO.

not in a million thousand ever years.

no.

[Hajji Giray I]

If you want to find an American Civil War game, go here. (http://www.walkerboystudio.com/Computer_Games/computer_games.html) I think the next thing after Rome should be, of course, the period of 400ish-600ish: the Barbarian tides invade Rome. Or, another idea would be the Hundred Years War...or maybe China, or maybe India, or maybe the New World, 1500s? Or even American Revolution, although the thrill of so many gosh darned different kinds of units would go away.

[kawligia]

I think the best ideas are already used. What I think would be interesting is more of a civilization approach. Different factions world wide start in the ancient ages and progress throughout time. Of course you will be able to pick different time periods. You could also stop the clock before guns are depended on too much...I'm just not convinced guns would work too well in this type of game.

[clovenhoof]

While I could see an American Civil War version, I think that genre has already been done and pretty well. What makes TW work for me is that its one of the only really good games in its genre. I'd really rather see an MTW with alot more depth (diplomacy, finance etc), better tactical control, more story and characterization etc.

[Laelius]

I agree about a game based primarily around guns - personally the gunpowder units are to me the most boring in both STW and MTW. I'm just trying to think of other world periods that could be picked up for the series.

The Imperial Age I sieze upon because it has the exploitation and conquest of the new world, TONS of different units, and still some impressive tactical manuevering. In addition, the political upheavals could be far more varied - the Glorious Revolution, American Revolution, and French Revolution all happen in the 1500-1800 time frame.

Another possibility - Greece: Total War, ranging from the 6th century B.C. to the death of Alexander. The units may not have much range, but they could be made extremely faction specific...and if naval combat could become a part of the game...

[Sam Adams]

An age of gunpowder TW would be badass. It would be the best time to portray. The warfare was definetly not all gunfighting. Even with the long range rifles of the US civil war, there was some hand to hand action. The napoleonic and US revolutionary wars saw a good deal of hand to hand fighting. Cavalry actions were almost all hand to hand durring this time period. Earlier on, like the 15 and 1600s, hand to hand fighting still dominates.

[Australianus]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
I am open on this topic but would like a couple of improvements to be considered. When I invade, the opposition can reinforce from neighbouring provinces; when they invade, I cannot reinforce. Trade seems to be only with other factions. I think trade within an empire should count for more so that your trade income does not dry up as you invade.

[RollingWave]

For those of us familiar with Chinese history we mostly agree if you want to do a TW for a Chinese period going for the eastern Chou period ranging from around 771-221 b.c this period is divided into two section, the spring and autumn and the warring states period.

Reasons....
1.This time is probably the only period in China where you have so many faction for such a long time, the Zhou dynasty is based on tribal turned fudealism with the entire China area divided into 100+ feudal state... of course most o them were tiny and not so influential, but even by the time the warring states period have come there are still 7 major state with a dozen minor onces... China's culture then was still quiet diverse with the different states often using different writing system and local culture diverse dramatically.

2.This is probably the biggest military shift era, when this period started it was very like early medieval era where professional shi (knights) fought in small scale pre arranged battle (sorta like the original phalanx fighting) mainly using chariot, but as competition progressed, most country used large amount of conscript while keeping a standing army when not fighting, the Qin even turned itself into a spartan like state (which was quiet crucial to it's final success but also quick failure)

3.techknowledgy development, it is widely known China was the first to develope and extensively use crossbows, this was the period they invented it in, the Chariot war is also slowly but surely replaced by infantry and later on calavry war, the northern Zhou state even developed horse archers etc... seige warfare also developes dramatically with siege towers and and catapults all benig invented and used extensively.

4.Cultural development, this period, espically starting from the late Spring and autumn period, is the period of the hundred school of thought, the most famous is obviously Confucisim (which wasn't that popular amoung the lords during this tiem acturally) and the administrative oriented legalism, the peace spreading (they talked about anti war and love for all ... almost like hippies in this sense:p but they were also quiet capable and very skilled at making war themself) Moism, the religious feeling Taoist... etc... even Sun Tzu is consider as one of the school sometimes. These different schools could fit into the religion part of the TW erally well in some sense... (choosing which school to follow.. spread the schools influence and getting special bonus for it)

If not... then you could try the Song period I guess though the factions are rather limited and the Mongol's campign definately not only affected China.... (but the military tech during this time is insane and it's roughly around the same time as MTW)

[rasoforos]

i think that byzantine era total war might be a good idea , early and early-mesobyzantine period...

[Knight_Yellow]

personaly im warming to the idea of shogun 2

[Stormer]

Ky i would love a Shogun totalwar 2 omg that would be fantastic

[Sasaki Kojiro]

So far the Total war series has been going steadily back in time so I think a move into the gunpowder era is unlikely, as hand to hand fighting is really the heart of the game. The last two games have been in europe so it would be nice to see them switch back to China or Japan. Greece is an option and could be just as much fun.

[BDC]

I think a Chinese game would be good. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Nowake]

Spring and Autumn Total War. Check it at .com http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Lehesu]

Total War: Undead Horde
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Sulla]

Total War: Lord of the rings???

regards Sulla

ps PLEASE dont shoot me now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Laelius]

I don't think that CA will make a China: Total War due to market considerations. The fact is, your average person in America and Western Europe knows far less about Chinese history than Roman, Medieval, or even Japanese history. A Roman legionnaire, Medieval knight, or Japanese samurai is instantly recognizable.

Greece:TW could cover the rise of democracy, Persian and Pelop. Wars, rise of Alexander, etc. You could pick your own polis - Athens, Thebes, Corinth, Sparta, etc, each with vastly different strengths (Athens, amazing on the seas, but no match for Spartan hoplites on land, for example). As time progresses, the hiring of mercenary elements could become even more important to getting a proper mix of the qualities needed. And I'd love to fight naval battles with decks full of marines and archers.

Another possibility - Bronze Age: Total War. Egyptians, Babylonians, Israelites, Phoenicians, Myceneans...Troy.

[alkalineruxpin]

I think that people are being extremely narrow-minded about the idea of muskets in a total war game. The people at CA have given us absolutely no reason to believe that they will not make every single attempt to create a historically accurate game EVERY TIME they make a game.

To base your inclinations towards a game of this nature upon the muskets and rifles in medieval is bordering on idiocy.

The weapons were simply used in a different manner, the tactics were different (and without a doubt, less rich and fun to recreate), and more importantly, the way the AI is expected to use them is more basic.

There simply aren't very many periods with a military history as rich and vibrant as the age of muskets that haven't already been covered in a CA game.

The ideas being tossed around in this forum are ideas that could very easily be expansions for one of the already existing Total War games.

The next game will be a game that offers a unique opportunity for tactical and strategic decisions, and the age of pure melee simply is running out of options.

[Laelius]

My reservations about gunpowder units stem from the gameplay in the current games. They do not seem to have the range, and definitely do not have the reload time, of bows and crossbows.

In a game where they are the focus, however, the tactics would be amazing. How do you disposition your men to fire? If you take too much cover, you risk not being able to move fast enough to counter a bayonet charge. Spread out too much, and you will save casualties, but will not be able to concentrate your own fire...and then there are dragoons to worry about, and Indians hiding in the trees to hit your flanks...

[kawligia]

Well I just don't see how it would work well. Lining up musketmen and firing at each other at point-blank range would not be fun. Also the idea of trench warfare would not be fun IN A TOTAL WAR GAME. It takes A LOT more than a battlefield to fight a war like that and is therefore best saved for another genre...in my opinion. To make it work there would have to be so many changes that it wouldn't even be a Total War game anymore.

I think the best thing would be the civilization approach. You could play as ANY faction that ever was and use every kind of unit there ever was...theroetically. What I think would be incredible is if you could create your units. No not by modding the game but by selecting what kind of weapon they would have...(long swords, short swords), what kind of armour (plate, leather, small round shields or big rectangular ones) and so on. Each thing you choosed would add or subtract to certain areas like strength and speed. Different things could become available or made obsolete in certain time periods. There could also be traditional pre-set units...or you could create and save your own. If we had this in Medieval I would love to make a heavily armoured Phalanx type unit. Especially if you started in the ancient ages you would be rewriting history anyway...you could give valor bonuses to the traditional troops built by the right people.

p.s. I would also like a remake of STW since I've never played it before...it's hard to get into old games. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Hajji Giray I]

Bronze Age/Greece sounds the best...

Sumer/Assyria/Israel/Egypt/Babylon/Phoenicia/Persia is one idea (CHARIOTS and ELEPHANTS woohooo Sorry, couldn't help it)

Greece (Pelopponesian (sp?) War, wars vs. Persia)/Troy/Persia again/Alexander the Great would also be neat

Maybe India? You know, Moguls/Mughals, and all the little bitty places...just ideas...

[alkalineruxpin]

I'm not suggesting trench warfare, that would absolutely not work.

However, lining men up and picking their fire dispositions and retreating to the cover of trees is UNIQUELY suited to Total War's gameplay unlike any other genre.

Cossacks tried.

IMHO, it failed. It simply didn't work in flanking, masses of troops, etc. The AI was even more predictable than the Medieval AI was. This is a game I would not want anyone BUT the C.A. to work on. Plain and simple.

[Lord Of Storms]

Quote[/b] (Sulla @ July 29 2003,10:32)]Total War: Lord of the rings???

regards Sulla

ps PLEASE dont shoot me now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif
I like the dialogue between patrons here regarding The next era of Total War, if you are interested in Muskets and how they play in the MTW platform by all means check into the dungeons Napoleonic Mod thread, this Mod has been in the works for sometime and the unit betas are available for playtesting on both versions 1.1 and VI and the whole campaign is in beta testing now and should be released soon, Here is a link to download the unit betas Napoleonic Unit Betas Link (http://www.zen11872.zen.co.uk/)Also Sulla Check out the Lord Of The Rings thread in the Dungeon for info regarding what looks to be an outstanding fantasy based mod. Regards LOS

[Laelius]

Cossacks was a decent game, but it just felt like a retread of Age of Empires 2. That whole RTS look-down view is nowhere near as compelling as the Total War battle engine.

If you think that the early gunpowder age (say, through 1815) is lacking in tactical variety, you need to read up on it. This was the age of the great generals such as Gustavus Adolphus, Wallenstein, Napoleon, etc.

For example, your typical musket regiment would be able to fire their muskets and attack with the bayonet. How many rounds do you fire before you charge and run your opponent through? If you do not break them, your men route, opening up other regiments to flanking attacks. If you put routing men to the bayonet, does it hurt your general's honor?

Due to a slow rate of fire, cavalry could still get at the infantry. And there are specialty units - colonial militia, Indian units, and sharpshooters such as the Hessian jagers.

I love the ancient and medieval worlds, and prefer to study them above all other periods, but I don't think of their battles as somehow more complicated and varied than those of the later periods.

[alkalineruxpin]

Thank you Laelius, that is exactly what I have been trying to say.

[RollingWave]

Maybe the average American doesn't know Chinese history that well these days... but...

1. Total War already have quiet a reputation..... I'm sure many gamers will grab it even if it's Star Wars: total war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ...

2. Though I havn't been to the states for a while... I'm under the imperssion that Chinese cultural thingies are teh fad in the west these days....

3. If it's market consideration... remember China is a big (and growing ) market... though I guess pirating is... but it's improving there too last I heard...

[Laelius]

1) Total War has a strong rep, I'll agree there, but I don't think that CA would be brining a lot of new blood (in the NA and EU markets) into the fold with a CTW. They might not mind, but Activision would.

2) Yes, that feng shui (sp?) is the big trendy home decor thing right now, but honestly the deepest that your average American gets into Chinese history is Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. The only way you'll get Americans to voraciously buy books about Chinese history is to have the Chinese fly a plane into a building.

3) China is an improving market, but I think the big guns like Activision, Sierra, Microsoft, etc, will be dropping their games into China after, or at best simultaneous to, U.S./EU releases.

[TheSilverKnight]

I think there should be a Total War game based in Spain. It should be called Reconquest: Total War, and all the provinces in Spain would be included, including upper, middle, and lower Portugal. There would be a number of factions:
Aragonese
Castilians
Leonians
Navarrans
Valencians
Almohads
Portuguese

Well? How does that sound? It could take place from 997-1492. That would be great. But Spain would be divided into tiny, tiny provinces, more like counties.

[RollingWave]

Ah laelius but I'm quiet sure the average american didn't know jack about Japanese history pass the Samuria and Ninja (and that's only from Teenage mutant ninja turtle too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) ... in fact... most non Japanese didn't either... I myself though I knew some random facts about Japanes history was never able to connect them together before Shogun... (though after that I found myself a nice book and now atleast have a good general idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif )

[Laelius]

I'm sure most everyone who loves this game has played Risk. Have any of you ever played the PC versions? Overall, they had their problems (Blue cheated), but there was one overwhelmingly cool feature - different maps. In addition to the basic world map from the board game, they had a map of America, a map of just Europe, etc. It threw everything out of whack because you couldn't rely on the same tried and true tactics, like securing North America.

I think a campaign editor would be an awesome idea to include with the game. You can edit which factions there are (and create custom factions to be included, complete with your own uploaded graphic), starting treasury, soldiers, territories owned, etc. Then, every few months, CA could release a new map.

Of course, as provinces disappear for Rome, this entire dynamic may change, but it would be cool to play a campaign as early Romans trying to take control of Italy, etc, with a map of just Italy.

And I'm sure that saveable, distributable custom factions and campaigns would become quite popular in the online community.

[Laelius]

Quote[/b] (RollingWave @ July 30 2003,10:48)]Ah laelius but I'm quiet sure the average american didn't know jack about Japanese history pass the Samuria and Ninja (and that's only from Teenage mutant ninja turtle too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ) ...
I agree completely. When I bought STW, all I knew was it had samurai in it, and looked very much like Risk meets Civilization with really cool battles. My knowledge of ninjas came from the American Ninja series and other such media at that point.

Afterwards, I enrolled for a class on Feudal Japan that was, ironically, taught by a shamelessly liberal, middle-aged white woman with a lisp. Hardly the proper professor for Japanese history, particularly in so male-dominated and militant an era.

But the fact remains - ninjas, samurai, knights, and vikings are all instantly recognizable icons. Even if your average man on the street can't tell you much about their history, they can identify them. I would argue that the same is not true of a Chinese warrior.

[alkalineruxpin]

Also, Americans (admittedly in my case) are driven by popular culture in many ways. Shogun (the TV miniseries with the guy that played Quartermain in those awful Indiana Jones wannabes) exposed us to Japan FAR before the Ninja Turtles did.

There simply isn't an equivalent for the Chinese, except the food and Kung Fu movies.

[Lehesu]

They could play on that whole China invented gun-powder, paper and everything else line. I am sure that most people know of the ancient Chinese as inventors.

[DemonArchangel]

They BETTER make a chinese total war, or i'll be forced to play the next Koei product http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[karmastray]

Quote[/b] (RollingWave @ July 30 2003,05:41)]2. Though I havn't been to the states for a while... I'm under the imperssion that Chinese cultural thingies are teh fad in the west these days....

3. If it's market consideration... remember China is a big (and growing ) market... though I guess pirating is... but it's improving there too last I heard...
I would say that your points are right on, now would be the best time for them to market a Chinese: Total War game as the general interest (as far as the people I know) would be much higher for that then for Napoleonic: Total War ( Who wants to play some crazy little french guy? ) or Greece: Total War ( Can I get a gyro with that? ) or even Rome: Total War ( Whoa, dude, that Rome stuff was like, a long time ago and stuff. )

IMO Chinese total war would be really really interesting. Not only because of the weird politics and militism of the time, but also because of the technological innovation of the Chinese at that point -- which is not really one of their strong points throughout the rest of history. (although they proved that when they thought it would benefit them in some way they did it)

[Laelius]

Quote[/b] (karmastray @ July 31 2003,23:35)]I would say that your points are right on, now would be the best time for them to market a Chinese: Total War game as the general interest (as far as the people I know) would be much higher for that then for Napoleonic: Total War ( Who wants to play some crazy little french guy? ) or Greece: Total War ( Can I get a gyro with that? ) or even Rome: Total War ( Whoa, dude, that Rome stuff was like, a long time ago and stuff. )

IMO Chinese total war would be really really interesting. Not only because of the weird politics and militism of the time, but also because of the technological innovation of the Chinese at that point -- which is not really one of their strong points throughout the rest of history. (although they proved that when they thought it would benefit them in some way they did it)
There seems to be an upswing in interest in Asian things right now, not history, or anything that would really have connection to a Total War game. Feng Shui (positive I'm spelling that wrong), for example. Or Asian cuisine, which has been turned into casual dining chains such as P.F. Chang's, Big Bowl, Pei Wei, and others.

I don't want to be rude, but I can't really think of anyway to say it otherwise - your offhand dismissal of Napoleon, Greece, and Rome are naive. Unless everyone you know is Bill and Ted.

Go to your run of the mill bookstore. A Barnes and Noble. Look at the history section, and check out the selection of Greek and Roman history, the military and political histories of Napoleon, his era, and I can assure you that each one alone will dwarf the selection of Chinese history.

If people don't care about Greek and Roman history, but are interested in Chinese history, why hasn't it shown up in Hollywood yet? Where are the Chinese historical epics? Rome's already had Gladiator (and several others decades ago), with Hannibal coming at some point. Greece will have Troy, Gates of Fire, and some form of Alexander film. Even the Japanese are getting a nod, with The Last Samurai. No interest, indeed.

Let's start with Rome which happened a long time ago, and stuff. To the average American, all history did that. Even World War II. But your average American knows more about Rome than China. They know the names of Julius Caesar, Augustus, and a few others. They know about gladiators, amphitheatres, the Senate. And the box office draw for Gladiator is highly indicitive of a lack of interest in things Roman. As is the very creation of Rome: Total War.

Greece: Total War. If I were going to make fun of this, I'd say that your average American expects John Travolta in this game. Average Americans are exposed less to Greek history, have less of a familiarity with it (which stems back to Europe's earlier access to Roman texts than Greek). BUT, they know the names of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle. Sparta and Athens. Alexander the Great is a household name, even if knowledge of his actions is not. In addition, the rash of upcoming Greek epic films will (if they are good) create a general interest in the Greeks.

And Napoleon. Who is remembered by most as the short, dead dude. Napoleon is probably the worst choice of the three, at least with the widespread anti-France sentiment. However, he is also a household name. His campaigns, much like those of the Civil War, hold up the war gaming industry (or did, until Total Wars began rolling out). I daresay he would be better than saying France: Total War or Wellington: Total War.