CA: Can the "56 Year Bug" be made OPTIONABLE

[ToranagaSama]

Personally, I find the "Bug" challenging and a nice change of pace

If at all possible, and especially s/b considered for Rome, I'd like the "56 Year Bug" to be improved and added to the Total War as a "Feature" which allows The Player to determine and set the Age of Death for Kings (and probably Generals too).

Probably regarding "overall" gameplay design, the developers should determine the "optimum" Age of Death for most/average players; but there s/b an option available so a player may choose the "optimum" for oneself. Such a feature should increase Total War's replayability.

The "FULL" feature implementation might be a bit much for the Patch, if so, then simplying making the current "Bug" optionable would be great

Full implemention, naturally, I think would entail a good deal of additional "structural" code changes to the Royal "Line of Descent".

Any comments from the peanut gallery? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Thank you one and all....

~ToranagaSama

[RisingSun]

What are you on? The bug doesnt make the game challenging, it makes it predictable. I'd much rather they spend their time woring out who gets t be the heir to the throne, because right now, it seem they are chosen by their incompetence.

[ToranagaSama]

What are you on?

Please, how does the "Bug" make the game anymore "predictable" than it was w/o the Bug? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[ToranagaSama smells cannabis and it ain't the morning; TS's brain is, already, starting to go numb, less than 15 minutes on the forum.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif ]

[Longasc]

I think he is right, either you overdosed or you suffer because you spent your last few... whatever you take. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No, honestly, if you REALLY think that something such predictable offers a challenge: There was a thread that offered advice how to change the age at which kings die - bur rather to let them become older, but well, you can change it to "death at 40", I think this is even more challenging... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Knight_Yellow]

are you stoned?

[The_Emperor]

Whatever your smoking can I have some? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[RisingSun]

How does it make it more predictable? Knowing exactly when your king will die.

[Obex]

CA -

while you are at it, can the crash to desktop at quicksave between battles be optional as well? I find the game much more challenging with the bug intact. for me it is a role playing issue. i like to image that sometimes, between battles, the earth is struck by a meteor and destroyed. please make the random crash option available in rtw as well.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Longasc @ July 29 2003,14:35)]I think he is right, either you overdosed or you suffer because you spent your last few... whatever you take. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No, honestly, if you REALLY think that something such predictable offers a challenge: There was a thread that offered advice how to change the age at which kings die - bur rather to let them become older, but well, you can change it to "death at 40", I think this is even more challenging... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Stop smoking the Cannibus

PLEASE (yes I'm shouting), how is the Bug more "predictable" than the game without the bug? Its curious how no one is articulate enough to explain themselves.

[Toranaga awaits any exhibition of intelligent life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif]

[Monk]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ July 29 2003,19:48)]
Quote[/b] (Longasc @ July 29 2003,14:35)]I think he is right, either you overdosed or you suffer because you spent your last few... whatever you take. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No, honestly, if you REALLY think that something such predictable offers a challenge: There was a thread that offered advice how to change the age at which kings die - bur rather to let them become older, but well, you can change it to "death at 40", I think this is even more challenging... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Stop smoking the Cannibus

PLEASE (yes I'm shouting), how is the Bug more "predictable" than the game without the bug? Its curious how no one is articulate enough to explain themselves.

[Toranaga awaits any exhibition of intelligent life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif]
well let me try,

If all kings/generals die at 56 then:

1. the AI's factions can die out easily becuz of lack of heirs

2. The pope will always die at 56, therefore all one needs to do is attack while he is 54 or 55. Then when you are warned you can just ignore it and keep fighting knowing he will be dead before he can excom you.

3. if by the age of 41 your king has no heir (meaning none born whatso ever) then your faction will die out before one can mature.

4. lets say the enemy has a very strong warrior king and you were planing to invade the provence he was in, hes got alote of loyalty bonus vices and gives plenty of valor to his troops. however he is 55, therefore all you have to do is wait 1 turn and you can take the provence with an easier battle.

5. wait untill an enemy king turns about 45, start invading and kill off his heirs by either assasins of use of arms. push him into a corner and wait for his death, rebels take over and you just need to mop up the rest.

6. The GH arrive, your on the brink of destruction by their forces, but as they move in for the kill their khan dies of 56. therefore your faction has escaped defeat by the means of a bug, or in other words a fluke. i dunno about you but i play to the bitter end, win or lose, and i dont like the idea of surviving by the will of a bug.

Those are just a few examples i could think of off the tope of my head.

[ToranagaSama]

Thank you Monk for restoring my faith in articulated life.

Though, I think you went a bit farther than simply describing the "predidictable" nature of the bug.

Well, I believe you've confirmed one suspecision I've had; it would appear that the bug must effect lesser or less experienced players more; or at least why Iv'e come to hate it less than some.

---


Quote[/b] ]1. the AI's factions can die out easily becuz of lack of heirs

I suppose it can and does occur more frequently, but *I* haven't noticed it to effect my game much. Whatever the case, within the context of Longasc's comments, it doesn't have much to do with "predictability".


Quote[/b] ]2. The pope will always die at 56, therefore all one needs to do is attack while he is 54 or 55. Then when you are warned you can just ignore it and keep fighting knowing he will be dead before he can excom you.

Sorry, I totally disregard with this reason, as the Pope can and should be completely ignored. See my reasoning in the "I don't see how this game can be beat" thread over in the Entrance Hall. While this does have to do with "predictability", the Pope is irrelevant to the game. The concept of the Pope is an obvious "gimmick" and serves to justify the existence of another "gimmick"--Crusades. Each has a negative effect to "strategic" gameplay. (MO)


Quote[/b] ]3. if by the age of 41 your king has no heir (meaning none born whatso ever) then your faction will die out before one can mature.

True enough and predictable enough. No argument, but then I ask, what's so diffirent? Without the bug you simply have more time to do what you should be doing in the first place, correct?

If you know this, THENNN, do something about it As soon as your son comes of age, GET HIM MARRIED. *If* one has made this a habit in the game BEFORE the bug, then it's simple with the bug.

Gosh, people were whinning about this same precise isse when MTW was first released, then there was no bug

IMO, this is a *FUN* factor, and mimics real royal medieval life EXTREMELY accurately. The need to have an heir and a spare was great Maybe now some of you can comprehend what motivated Henry VIII to have and kill eight wives, as well as to defy the Pope.

Also, if you plan to take your heir to battle, then just like in true medieval times, make sure you have a spare heir. Same with your King, take care unless the heir can rule.

If you lose your game because of this, accept the fact that its *YOUR* fault NOT the Bugs fault. Granted, there will be an occaison when chance will prevail and the game will end because of a lack of an heir. So what, start another game. As long as you do what you need to ensure an heir, then how often will this happen? 1, 2, 3, times out of 10? Pleasseee. This is one of my main appeals for the bug.

[TS sings for you all: Pressure Comming Down On Me, Comming Down on Me. Pressure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif ]


Quote[/b] ]4. lets say the enemy has a very strong warrior king and you were planing to invade the provence he was in, hes got alote of loyalty bonus vices and gives plenty of valor to his troops. however he is 55, therefore all you have to do is wait 1 turn and you can take the provence with an easier battle.


Are you able to see the enemy general's age? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif I can only presume you are correct, me being ToranagaSama plays by "Hardcore Rules", which requires one to NOT use Spies or other agents to 'deliberately' spy upon the enemy, nor are Border Forts or Watch Towers allowed.

Soo...ahhh...while you make a valid point, its EASY to counter, and from my perspective is only an issue for Newbies, Yahoos, and Lamers. I see you have 623 org posts to your credit, is it not time to up the difficulty quotient by imposing some roleplaying? Up the difficulty and improve your skill level, which believe it or not corresponds reversely to the "whine" level. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[TS, waits for the day C-MP will make improving your "campaign skills" a worthwile endeavor.]


Quote[/b] ]5. wait untill an enemy king turns about 45, start invading and kill off his heirs by either assasins of use of arms. push him into a corner and wait for his death, rebels take over and you just need to mop up the rest.


First response: Repeat response to item 4 above.

Second repsonse: That's one of the worst smelling pieces of CHEESE I've ever encountered. Completely disdainful "Cheessy Tactic". Simple solution, STOP USING CHEESY TACTICS--PERIOD

Baffling, complain about the bug, and engage in Cheese, baffling.

Correct, totally predictable in nature, fortunately such a tactic never occurred to me.


Quote[/b] ]6. The GH arrive, your on the brink of destruction by their forces, but as they move in for the kill their khan dies of 56. therefore your faction has escaped defeat by the means of a bug, or in other words a fluke. i dunno about you but i play to the bitter end, win or lose, and i dont like the idea of surviving by the will of a bug.

Hmmm...do I note a hint of integrity? You don't like the idea of surviving by the will of a "bug", but apparently you do like the idea of surviving by CHEESE What other Cheesy Tactics do you engage in?

Anyway, the way you frame your point has NOTHING to do with predictability. Again, how is this different than w/o the "bug"? How It is the same exact behaviour in the game w/o the bug. The ONLY diffence is that the "event" has greater chance to occur SOONER. Would it please you more, if the player's King continued to die at 56, while the GH King was altered to die at 84? Somehow, I doubt it BTW, isn't the GH event rather predictabile? Doesn't it occur, on or near the same year? No, whinning about this though.

Just an aside, but personally, I don't like the GH event, and its effected only one out of dozens of campaigns. I rarely play the factions on that side of the map, so the GH is a non-event for me; and by the time I get to that side the GH event has passed.

Dude, some of my comment have been facitous, I really don't mean to offend, but re the "bug", I can't help but think its the non-harcore cheese players that are the greatest whinners in this respect.

All of the items above can be easily and simply countered if one chooses to do so. I stand by what I say, the "bug" can be a challenge if you seek one. It simply condenses the time factor overall, and is NO MORE predictable than the original game w/o the bug

Yeah, you can't play the game exactly as you might w/o the bug, but so what, you can't play MTW like its STW either.

I thank you again, for articulating your thoughts. You serve as an example for those less capable (;)). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Hmmm...I'll bet the Cheese factor is directly proportional to the Whine factor. Stop The Cheese

[Why is there no icon with a Smiley holding his nose?]

~ToranagaSama

[EDITED for typos, of which there are many.]

[Ser Clegane]

Actually I think the bug made the game easier not more challenging.

As TS rightfully pointed out the human player should in most cases be able to avoid the no-heir-game-over situation by actively marrying off the royals.

Unfortunately the AI factions do not change their strategy accordingly and I saw it happen quite often that a faction that was a serious rival fell apart in civil war after the king died without heir. Of course this also happened in pre-bug games, but after the bug it happened so unrealistically often that it was just no fun anymore...

That said, I do not really care if they make the bug an "option" ... if they can easily implement it and can make people happy by doing so ... well, go ahead, I always appreaciate additional game customization options (after all if it is an option I do not have to activate it, do I?)

[RJV]

Hi,

Agree totally with TS. While I'm not that experienced a player in the general scheme of things, I can't see that it's a problem. With no bug, your King died when he died (load a saved game as a test and watch him die, survive, survive, survive, die etc.), with the 56 bug, he still dies when he dies, it just always happens to be at the same time. So what? There was always a chance he'd kark it at 56 anyway. Just ignore it. As TS says, do the things you should have been doing anyway and you'll be OK. If you have no heir by 41 then just consider it advance notice of an impending game over...
As far as using it to wipe out other factions goes - just ignore it, don't bother looking at the ages or just play as if you haven't seen them, it can't be that hard surely.
Yes it's a bug and it should be fixed, but it's hardly the end of the world.
Now, what was TS on again...?

Cheers.

[Rocket_Boy]

Can't really see them making it an option, don't mind at all if they do, just as long as they fix it for the vast majority who detest it.

[Monk]

ToranagaSama,

i was only pointing out examples that could happen to a player. did in any of that did i say i used those tactics? no, and yet you accuse me of doing so and insult me, thanks alot.

i was only trying to point out a few things the bug can do, in NO way was i trying to say "cheese" tactics should be used. sorry if thats how it came off, i was only providing a simple answer for your question.

[Empress_Zoe]

Thats easy Lady Toranaga, don't download the patch, der..... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Praylak]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ July 29 2003,19:06)]3. if by the age of 41 your king has no heir (meaning none born whatso ever) then your faction will die out before one can mature.
I find this is the worst part of the bug. Too many campaigns end like this for me. Seems like 4 out of 10 end up that way now, and always at point when I just seem to be doing well. Quite frankly, it is a game killer.

It's a bug, so kill it.

[Praylak]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ July 30 2003,01:09)]Granted, there will be an occaison when chance will prevail and the game will end because of a lack of an heir. So what, start another game.
On Occasion?? WTF?

I've played 18 campaigns since VI, 8 of which have ended because of no heir. In most cases I didn't even get into the late era. I don't share your perception on this bug.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Monk @ July 30 2003,13:47)]ToranagaSama,

i was only pointing out examples that could happen to a player. did in any of that did i say i used those tactics? no, and yet you accuse me of doing so and insult me, thanks alot.

i was only trying to point out a few things the bug can do, in NO way was i trying to say "cheese" tactics should be used. sorry if thats how it came off, i was only providing a simple answer for your question.
Monk,

Sorry if I came off a bit harshly. Often times I may become overly passonate, just think of the old joke about the Scorpion and the Frog, its my nature Most of the time I don't mean to offend, I'm just "normally", direct, pointed and blunt.

Just like to thank you again, for taking up the challenge of articulating an opposite viewpoint. Unlike the poster who first commented.


Ser Clegane

Quote[/b] ]... if they can easily implement it and can make people happy by doing so ... well, go ahead, I always appreaciate additional game customization options (after all if it is an option I do not have to activate it, do I?)

Agreed. CA listened to the community and implemented several "options" w. MTW aimed squarely at the Newbie or Lamer/Warmonger http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, with Rome I'd like to see some optionable customizations aimed at the "seasoned" player, of which there s/b quite a number by the time Rome is released. Options, that can increase the difficulty in a number of varied ways.

The capability to define the Age of Death for Kings and Generals is one such way. Yes, the bug has certain sure deficiencies, but then it is a "bug". A similar, but designed and tested "feature" should have most of the bug's kinks worked out.

I agree, an age limit of 56 is a "hard" setting, but the capability to change the limit to 60, 65 70, or even 100, would dramatically alter the strategy necessary to be successful. Each "Age" setting would add a different flavor to your campaign, and increase the Replayability factor greatly.

I'd even with to see the "feature" streched further. Making the King's death with no heir equal End Game optionable. If the King dies w/o an heir, then the player s/b presented the choice of choosing one of the remaining generals/princes to "play"; with the goal of uniting the Kingdom/Faction and being "crowed" as King.

Ha, in the above situation the "campaign" could even be morphed into a smaller campaign with a commensurate map of just the "home" provinces and the other "rival" contenders to the throne.

Simultanesouly, the "Main Campaign" could continue with the AI factions.

Once the Player has established dominance and the general/prince is named King, then, guess what----The Faction Reappears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and the Player is "morphed" back the the Main Campaign Map.

THIS is how Civil Wars s/b implemented in the nexxxt version of Total War.

[For the Big Thinkers among us, is it me, or is there a "germ" of an idea for the structure of a C-MP in the above?]

[Odyssey of War]

Just a thought here, why shouldnt Kings and Generals die at a random age between 40 and 80. That would add the realism people are looking for and would be an added challenge. Heck I doubt if many (note that I didnt say all, cause people will bring up specific references to de-bunk this) people in those ages lived to be 40, let alone 80, due to all the diseases and such. True royalty tended to live longer than the average peasent, but still it was rare for anyone in those ages to live long. By making the death age random, you wouldnt know when your royalty would die.

[Lancer6969]

You guys have way tooo much time on your hands. Why would you argue about a Hardcoded bug that cant be fixed? Go into the Dungeon and you would see all the answers about the 56 Year bug, YOU CANT CHANGE IT, get over it. Seriously This is starting stupid arguments. If you want to try and input all the ways and chances that your king will die later than 56, go ahead. There is really no way to make the code different. How would the game figure the way your KING is gonna die, besides historically correct data, which would be a good idea.

Another thing, CA isn't gonna answer your repetitive questions, everything you guys mentioned in this thread has already been covered in the Dungeon.

[Odyssey of War]

CA is coming out with a patch to fix the hardcoded 56 year bug.

[Odyssey of War]

Additionally, as someone who has done some programming, it is possible to make something random, I would fix it myself if I knew which programming language MTW was made in and if I had access to the correct software. But CA IS going to make a patch, so these are just ideas people are throwing out. Its all in good fun.

[Teutonic Knight]

**pulls out broadsword**

**chucks off Toranaga Sama's head**

problem solved fellas http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

seriously dude, what are you smokin'? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Mechstra]

In the Viking campaign, I saw the Welsh reemerge in Clwyd, and they were non-existent within 2 years. Their king died, then his brother took over and died. Both at 56.

This is not challenging. This is laughable.

If you're going to address a bug like this, remove it completely, don't just make it optional.

[Sjakihata]

wtf..
why not optional? it wont bother you, it wont bother anyone if it is optional, cos with a single CLICK you get it YOUR way, isnt that what you all want?

[Lord of the Isles]

I was so sure ToranagaSama was trolling that I didn't bother to respond in this thread earlier. That wouldn't have been so bad; what's so crazy is that he seems to be serious.

Some of you have argued that it doesn't cost us anything so let him have his option. But even an hour implementing it is an hour when a CA programmer could have been doing something useful. And what about everyone else's drug fuelled bizarraries? I've heard that M:TW during development used to crash with a blue screen of death every time you selected France as your faction. Can I have that back in as an option?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I'm sorry Teutonic Knight, but beheading is too good for ToranagaSama. Bring out the comfy chair

[pdoan8]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ July 31 2003,08:57)]... with Rome I'd like to see some optionable customizations aimed at the "seasoned" player, of which there s/b quite a number by the time Rome is released. Options, that can increase the difficulty in a number of varied ways.

... I'd even with to see the "feature" streched further. Making the King's death with no heir equal End Game optionable. If the King dies w/o an heir, then the player s/b presented the choice of choosing one of the remaining generals/princes to "play"; with the goal of uniting the Kingdom/Faction and being "crowed" as King.

Ha, in the above situation the "campaign" could even be morphed into a smaller campaign with a commensurate map of just the "home" provinces and the other "rival" contenders to the throne.

Simultanesouly, the "Main Campaign" could continue with the AI factions.

Once the Player has established dominance and the general/prince is named King, then, guess what----The Faction Reappears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and the Player is "morphed" back the the Main Campaign Map.

THIS is how Civil Wars s/b implemented in the nexxxt version of Total War.

I like these ideas.

A simplier approach that would make me really happy is that:

In stead of a sub campaign, my whole empire now reduce to just 1 province where the selected ex-prince or general was in before the death of the King. All other provinces could either lean toward supporting the new King or opt to join other factions.

There should be another set of stats that general should have such as: Influenced by the King, Influenced by others (these two might be defined by or define the loyalty level), Influence they have over the other generals that he once commanded, Influence over others by his achievement, how much others respect him,... If his influence level is great, he could easily win the support of other generals and gain control of other provinces. Otherwise, he would have to build everything up again (like the Swiss and the Burgundy or the Aragon).

These stats should also be used to make civil war much more likely if the influence of the top rank general(s) is greater than the influence of the King.

Now, back to the "56" bug. I hardly notice it until I read about it. So far, it has effected my last 2 campaigns, including the current one. However, I'm rather happy with the side effects.

- Many factions were eliminated because the King died of old age without an heir. As many as 8 in the same year ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif ). However, most of the eleminated factions reappear a few years later and got a really big boost in their army strenght. Sometimes, they even reclaimed all of their provinces. Sometimes, other factions took advantage of the situation and became a largest, most powerful faction (when they would have no chance before). For me, it's kind of a surprise element.

- I know that my King will die when he turn 57, so the urge of having the heirs married and start pumping out children is higher than before.

- All heirs are precious even if they are a bunch of unhinged loon. Eventhough only one get the throne, the others are there to increase the chance of a civil war if the King died without a heir.

- Can you imagine that I haven't lost a single campaign? (well, not counting the ones that I abandoned because I think I had no chance). Now, with the "56" bug, there would be a good chance that I'm going to lose a campaign. I have the habit of forgeting the King's age http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Like TS pointed out, there are many things that I can do to counter the effect of the bug, including the cheesy ones and also unfreeze him. It is not a biggest bug and it doesn't make VI less enjoyable.

That's my opinion.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Odyssey of War @ July 31 2003,12:13)]Just a thought here, why shouldnt Kings and Generals die at a random age between 40 and 80. That would add the realism people are looking for and would be an added challenge. Heck I doubt if many (note that I didnt say all, cause people will bring up specific references to de-bunk this) people in those ages lived to be 40, let alone 80, due to all the diseases and such. True royalty tended to live longer than the average peasent, but still it was rare for anyone in those ages to live long. By making the death age random, you wouldnt know when your royalty would die.
Quite correct, that every year beyond age 40, move the game closer to fantasy; but I don't believe that "Gameplay" would be served by total randombility between the age range of 40-80.

For the most part, age "ranges" would be best, but obviously, the "ranges" would still have a degree of predictability.

A selected 10 year range is probably the best compromise, between a predicitable "certain" date of death and total randomness.

All my thoughts and comments s/b viewed with the "seasoned" player in mind. Total randomness might be fine for a "beginning" player. To answer your original question, its just too simplistic after awhile. The player is presented with the same set of "strategic" circumstances over and over.

The overall goal s/b to have a selection of varied "strategic" settings. I believe the "bug" simply presents a flawed, but effective strategic choice.

Specifically, for me, it causes Civil Wars to "come alive", rather than sans-bug simply serviging as an annoying difficulty "gimmick" (easily controlled)

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (pdoan8 @ Aug. 02 2003,05:04)]
FINALLY Someone who smokes the same brand of Cannibus. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


---


Quote[/b] ]In stead of a sub campaign, my whole empire now reduce to just 1 province where the selected ex-prince or general was in before the death of the King. All other provinces could either lean toward supporting the new King or opt to join other factions.

Simpler? Not sure about that, but your train of thought is in the right direction.


Quote[/b] ]There should be another set of stats that general should have such as: Influenced by the King, Influenced by others (these two might be defined by or define the loyalty level), Influence they have over the other generals that he once commanded, Influence over others by his achievement, how much others respect him,... If his influence level is great, he could easily win the support of other generals and gain control of other provinces. Otherwise, he would have to build everything up again (like the Swiss and the Burgundy or the Aragon).


Absolute concurrence

"Influence" s/b the key in a Civil War "sub"-Campaign. In fact, "Influence" as a virtue is under-implemented in the game. It s/b the focal factor in a Strategic (Multiplay or otherwise) Campaign; rather than "Valour". Valour is all about "total war" and is very inline with a RTS focus; while Influence is all about Strategic thinking and is more in-line with TBS.

---

The below simply deserves to be repeated:


Quote[/b] ]Now, back to the "56" bug. I hardly notice it until I read about it. So far, it has effected my last 2 campaigns, including the current one. However, I'm rather happy with the side effects.

- Many factions were eliminated because the King died of old age without an heir. As many as 8 in the same year ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif ). However, most of the eleminated factions reappear a few years later and got a really big boost in their army strenght. Sometimes, they even reclaimed all of their provinces. Sometimes, other factions took advantage of the situation and became a largest, most powerful faction (when they would have no chance before). For me, it's kind of a surprise element.

- I know that my King will die when he turn 57, so the urge of having the heirs married and start pumping out children is higher than before.

- All heirs are precious even if they are a bunch of unhinged loon. Eventhough only one get the throne, the others are there to increase the chance of a civil war if the King died without a heir.

- Can you imagine that I haven't lost a single campaign? (well, not counting the ones that I abandoned because I think I had no chance). Now, with the "56" bug, there would be a good chance that I'm going to lose a campaign. I have the habit of forgeting the King's age http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Like TS pointed out, there are many things that I can do to counter the effect of the bug, including the cheesy ones and also unfreeze him. It is not a biggest bug and it doesn't make VI less enjoyable.


Hmmmm...perhaps pdoan8 is just a victim of second hand smoke. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

pdoan8, you have my respect as a Total War Gamer. One day sir, I would like the honor of destroying you in my first game of Campaign Multiplay, let that day be soon.

[TS wonders why there is no "bowing" smilely?]


Quote[/b] ]That's my opinion.

And a good one it is.

TS, is of the opinion that some of us are "Players" and some of us are "Lamers". Only C-MP can separate us....

Thanks for the comments guys.

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] ]- I know that my King will die when he turn 57, so the urge of having the heirs married and start pumping out children is higher than before.

Even though I'm freaking, I absolutely loved the pressure from the situation. While playing my last Campaign (ongoing), my King was slow to produce an Heir, but "finally" did so just before it was too late. Calculating, it was obvious that my King would die with a "just" matured heir who would inherit the throne. Unfortunately, my heir and soon-to-be King had some rather accomplished and capable Royal Uncles and Generals, who, I was sure, weren't going to accept the King's unexpectedly late-born heir.

Civil War was a virtual certainty upon the heir's accession. For those of you who enjoy "roleplaying", you simply have to put yourself in the role of an aging King who must find a way to protect your heir upon your death. That is the challenge

So what to do? That is the question. I don't recall precisely, but my heir had either 1 or 2 Valour (Stars) and rather "neutral" V&V, so he wasn't going to the throne and start kicking butt. He would have no chance versus his 4 or 5 Valour, Great Warrior (among several other excellent V&V) Royal Uncle, who, prior to the Heir's birth, was to inherit the throne. This great warrior Prince was the Defender of the Realm and commanded the best and most experienced Army.

[CA, it might be convenient *if* there was a way to readily determine a general's *level* of "loyalty" in the above situation; or at least have a hint.]

What I, as the Player, decided to do was to take away the Uncle's army and send him off to some far flung province of little worth or concern w/o an army to command. I did similarly to several other suspect generals putting them in charge of Peasant armies. I shuffled and moved generals, troops, and armies so that the most expectedly loyal troops were in the most important provinces and would be be able to protect the heir upon his ascention. I gave command of the best troops to the heir.

My hope was to forestall any Civil War until the Great Warrior Uncle died off and the heir came into his own as King. This was a risky strategy, as the pointed and public demotion of the Great Warrior Uncle and without the "Dread" of his presence, rebellion might be encouraged in provinces recently conquered by the Great Warrior Uncle. Additionally, who would defend the Realm, if the faction were to be attacked by outside invaders? Though, the risk of Civil War was greatest of all.

Alas, my hopes were dashed as with the death of the King, the Great Warrior Uncle with generals and troops loyal to him revealed themselves in open rebellion and Civil War ensued.

Fortunately, for the young new King, the former Great King, his father, prepared wisely for the ascension and the civil war that followed. The young King prevailed easily over the Great Warrior Uncle, his Influence was raised and his Kingdom secured.

After a few years of rebuilding and recovering his realm, the young King was able to continue the expansion of his lands that his father, before him, had begun. The young King, eventually, grew old and died, precisely, again, like his father before him, at the ripe old age of *56*, leaving a strong heir to inherit the throne who would not suffer the trials of Civil War.

This new King, in honor of his father, issued a Decree, that all "Lamers" should be put to the sword and the people were happy.

Long Live the King and ToranagaSama http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Hamburglar]

I can see it being good to have an option, but the really bad thing about this 56 year bug is when the King's brother takes the throne.



Oftentimes the brother is only a few years younger than the King and its ridiculous when a whole chain of kings just dies off in a few years.




And as for getting your Prince's married, we all know that its the one of the BIGGEST pains in the ass of the entire game. Chasing down princesses with emmissaries is annoying and we all know that after so many years of playing the whole world is pretty much against you so there goes the whole chance of getting wives for the princes.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, Hamburglar, in that case you have to do the unthinkable and use the very last resource of princesses that can be found, i.e. your own.
Also it's more convenient. Heh.

[AgentBif]

As long as you guys are fixing bugs, please make sure the patch handles these problems:

+ Mass uber rebellions. From what I can see, most people really hate this thing, since it is silly that so many full elite stacks can suddenly be fabricated all over your kingdom. Please implement an option checkbox for this "feature".

+ Mass unavoidable corruption vices in governors. Similar annoyance as above. Please put in an option check box for said "feature".

+ Reenforcement order. Please make sure that the order of troops requested is actually followed when the battle starts.

+ 100% innaccurate weather prediction. It ALWAYS rains when the weather is predicted to be clear all day. Please fix this. Real world weather doesn't change every 5 minutes, please tone down the chaos.

+ Trees should not block the mouse drag when placing units. Please fix this, there is no good reason for this impediment to the user interface.

+ Please enable a totally free camera. Right now disabling the "restricted camera" option still leaves the camera severely restricted.

+ AI can't handle budgeting. For some reason on expert difficulty the strat AI always seems to collapse of it's own accord. It can't seem to be able to run a positive income, keeping far too many peasants around, allowing mass rebellions, and still not setting up solid trade routes for income. (Though the trade route thing seems to be partially fixed.)

Thanks for the attention guys. The game is great, but it still suffers grievously from these problems.

[Longasc]

*Throws a brick at ToranagaSama*

you asked for it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

If you ask for optional bugs in Rome:TW, I am sure those who bought it will throw elephants and flaming pigs at yours... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (Longasc @ Aug. 12 2003,15:49)]*Throws a brick at ToranagaSama*

you asked for it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

If you ask for optional bugs in Rome:TW, I am sure those who bought it will throw elephants and flaming pigs at yours... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
na, remember? I already chopped off his head http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Longasc]

You are right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

This was corpse mutilation... shame on me... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[ToranagaSama]

Quote[/b] (Hamburglar @ Aug. 09 2003,02:57)]I can see it being good to have an option, but the really bad thing about this 56 year bug is when the King's brother takes the throne.

Oftentimes the brother is only a few years younger than the King and its ridiculous when a whole chain of kings just dies off in a few years.

And as for getting your Prince's married, we all know that its the one of the BIGGEST pains in the ass of the entire game. Chasing down princesses with emmissaries is annoying and we all know that after so many years of playing the whole world is pretty much against you so there goes the whole chance of getting wives for the princes.
Your first point is well noted, but the situation seems quite realistic. In any event, it simply is the Player's responsibility to produce an heir. Fail to do so and suffer the consequences.

On your second point, one just has to realize and accept that almost every issue that most people whine about is "controllable". For Newbies such things can be truly annoying, but is part of the "strategic" challenge. Unfortunately, a good many think TW is a RTS game and approach it accordingly. If you've progressed beyond the "newbie" stage and are still whinning, then you've got to ask yourself: "Am I a Lamer"?

The key to marrying your princesses is a) High Influence; do the necessary things to raise your Influence BEFORE you "need" it; and b) Always make friends Fairly soon into a Campaign you should choose a Faction (usually as an ally, but not totally necessay) to "support" (or at least be neutral). Never threaten this faction and help it out as much a possible. Marry VERY early into the Campaign into this faction. Maintain this relationship until the very end, when its absolutely no longer needed.

Accomplish the above "successfully" and your marriage issues will be "virtually" gone. The only hitch is that "sometimes" you pick the wrong faction and it turns out to be particularly "infertile" producing few marriage candidates.

*If*, after a few Campaigns, your difficulties in marriage haven't significantly improved, then you must Ask Yourself*....

---

[TS wonders if there are any Talking Heads fans out there...the song just came to mind...check out the lyrics...I'm not the only person who must smoke Cannibus... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

*ONCE IN A LIFETIME

And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself-Well...How did I get here?

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money´s gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground.

And you may ask yourself
How do I work this?
And you may ask yourself
Where is that large automobile?
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful house
And you may tell yourself
This is not my beautiful wife
Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money´s gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground.

Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...

Water dissolving...and water removing
There is water at the bottom of the ocean
Carry the water at the bottom of the ocean
Remove the water at the bottom of the ocean

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/in the silent water
Under the rocks and stones/there is water underground.

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money´s gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground.

And you may ask yourself
What is that beautiful house?
And you may ask yourself
Where does that highway go?
And you may ask yourself
Am I right?...Am I wrong?
And you may tell yourself
MY GOD...WHAT HAVE I DONE?

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/in the silent water
Under the rocks and stones/there is water underground.

Letting the days go by/let the water hold me down
Letting the days go by/water flowing underground
Into the blue again/after the money´s gone
Once in a lifetime/water flowing underground.

Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...
Same as it ever was...Same as it ever was...

---

Ehhh, probably too deep for the lamers...]

[Ser Clegane]

Heh, heh ... I really liked that song (and also some other songs from the Talking Heads).

I guess I'm gonna throw in that CD when I get home today http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brown Wolf]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ July 29 2003,18:48)]
Quote[/b] (Longasc @ July 29 2003,14:35)]I think he is right, either you overdosed or you suffer because you spent your last few... whatever you take. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

No, honestly, if you REALLY think that something such predictable offers a challenge: There was a thread that offered advice how to change the age at which kings die - bur rather to let them become older, but well, you can change it to "death at 40", I think this is even more challenging... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
Stop smoking the Cannibus

PLEASE (yes I'm shouting), how is the Bug more "predictable" than the game without the bug? Its curious how no one is articulate enough to explain themselves.

[Toranaga awaits any exhibition of intelligent life. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif]
I once had a king with pervision live longer than 56 I think to 60 or 70. I sit an exception to the bug?

[Jikahn]

If at 41 you have no heirs. . .

Someone may have beat me to it, but in other games the above situation could be called mate in 15. (Is that even possible in chess?)

-Just wanted to post something http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Longasc]

I have never heard of mate in 15, but mate in 12 is possible. Sorry, cannot give you evidence, but I am playing chess and remembered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[GilJaysmith]

Quote[/b] (Longasc @ Aug. 26 2003,09:37)]I have never heard of mate in 15, but mate in 12 is possible. Sorry, cannot give you evidence, but I am playing chess and remembered it. :)
Mate in two is possible for Black, if White is a total muppet (or a Fool, to use the technical term).

Not that this is remotely relevant, but disruptive irrelevancy can be fun.

[Qilue]

Mate with three isn't actually possible either unles you want to chance triplets with different fathers. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Perhaps vulgar toilet humour has no place here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[Degtyarev14.5]

Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ Aug. 04 2003,05:34)]pdoan8, you have my respect as a Total War Gamer. One day sir, I would like the honor of destroying you in my first game of Campaign Multiplay, let that day be soon.

[TS wonders why there is no "bowing" smilely?]


Quote[/b] (ToranagaSama @ Jul. 07 2003,06:12, "Provocateur- a suggestion for new agent/troop" thread)]ArseClown,

[...]

ToranagaSama bows with respect, one day when CA deems to give us Campaign MP, TS looks forward to a test of skills.

[Why is there no bowing smilely?]

Methinks TS has a perverse obsession with bowing "smilely"s. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

A.

[Teutonic Knight]

Quote[/b] (GilJaysmith @ Aug. 26 2003,14:55)]
Quote[/b] (Longasc @ Aug. 26 2003,09:37)]I have never heard of mate in 15, but mate in 12 is possible. Sorry, cannot give you evidence, but I am playing chess and remembered it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Mate in two is possible for Black, if White is a total muppet (or a Fool, to use the technical term).

Not that this is remotely relevant, but disruptive irrelevancy can be fun.
so it can m8.....so it can....

WHEN WILL YOU BE DONE WITH THE PATCH??? HUH? HUH? HUH?

sorry just had to get that outa my system.... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif