Whining and Crying. Stop being wussy!

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

First off, I'm no longer emissary for Yagyu, so disregard that portion of my name.

Now to my point. I am So frigging sick of people in the foyer..almost exclusively in the early morning GMT or late night my time. For every 15 cool people on Shogun, I have to deal with at least 1 rude, ignorant, intolerant idiot.

For months, have sat idly by, and ignore these people. I've blocked them, put them out of mind, tried being polite, deferrring, smiling, and none of it changes the way things are.

Oftentimes, I see unprovoked rudeness and snotty attitude being bandied about in forum, for what seems no apparent reason. The last week, I've been in at least 4 flame outs with people who have either whined and cried unnecessarily or just plain been rude.

Most recent examples ( I'll leave it anonymous)

- In the midst of a joke I was telling in foyer, someone said F**K you Kensen.

- I've had two people who went out of sync proceed to flame me repeatedly for "dropping." Anyone who knows me, knows that I, nor any Yagyu drops.

- Whenever my m8 YagyuLahatiel is attempting to make light and joke around in foyer, some idiot inevitably starts to cry and whine about this or that. Get's righteous on him, and threatens to mail TGA shots to his Daimyo, the pentagon and whomever else they can think of. This gets old. Shut up.

In short:

Please stop crying at me. If something upsets you. Express it to that person privately and with manners and a calm head.
If you want to be rude, I WILL flame you. DO NOT, say F you to me, and DO NOT make derrogatory references to peoples family memebers and gf's etc. It's stupid and cheapens and ruins the game.

Finally, 95% of the community is wonderful. In 7 months, I've met some wonderuful people, and most all are very nice, polite and friendly. The idiots know who they are.

[MIZILUS]

Well F me..

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

All the Mizu guys are excellent, friendly and honourable folks. Just for the record.

[DoCToR]

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Just ignore them matey, turn a blind eye so to speak.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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MizuDOC Otomo
DrJambo Ouchi

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

I did m8. For 6 months. I've had it now. I'm just sick and frigging tired of this constant stream of stupidity.

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Kensin,

Immaturity will always abound until we restrict the availability of multiplayer environments to those who qualify - such as -you must be older than 8 years old, you must be able to ACT like your also over the 8 yr old mark, and you must have enough sense to know that a nickname such as oWnZuRA33 not only disqualifies you from forum access, but also is grounds to insure that you never access the internet again until you are 25, have moved out of your mommies house, have a job somewhere outside the field of fast food, have gotten laid at least once (your own hands do not count) and can understand the concept that aLtErN8iNg your letters and using a number due to your inability to spell english words with more than 5 letters is ignorance personified before you can be expected to be a useful and therefore desired member of the online gaming community of your choice.

What do ya all think?
Qapla!
BSM Skkzarg
aka
1VeRyCuUlDoOd
ROFL

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."


[This message has been edited by BSM_Skkzarg (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Gothmog]

Haha BSM_Skkzarg, that was sharp.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

and people wonder why my beloved Khan became rude....

a famous quote from him online...

...if this online community is representive for the civilisation than the human specie is doomed...

[Yagyu Emissary Kensen]

OH MY..that was awesome. NIIICE post. Yes Magy, we're all doomed m8. All of us. Although when Medieval comes out, my clan will personally hunt down and chase away the 12 year old morons. Watch me start ripping IP's too, and harassing the Tanks and Demons of the world.

[Khan7]

Well, the obvious way to solve this is for the game servers to provide some mechanism for exclusion, that would be in the hands of the denizens. Obviously there would have to be a foyer open to everyone, but then there could be further foyers which would require prior acceptance and from which ejection would be quick and easy. Such an environment would ideally be governed by a handful of heavy-handed community elite, who would shoot first and ask questions later.

Of course such an environment would also ideally have a relatively understanding appeals policy, so that if someone were wrongly banished they could be reinstated without a great deal of hassle. Also so that if a (former) "demon" proved themselves to have matured, they could be readmitted.

If these principles were adhered to without exception, and the total absolute, arbitrary, and unqualified power of the "Daimyos" remained rightly unquestioned (with of course the appeals policy, social pressures, and good "Daimyo" selection keeping them in check), then theoretically a very beautiful situation would evolve. You get all of the "cool" people in the "cool" foyer, and pretty soon the few morons who are left in the "uncool" foyer will get sick of camping and cursing eachother, and straighten up and fly right, or leave for good.

Thus by making inclusion in the *real* Shogun online community a privelege, with requirements that of course would only take a bit of common sense and self-control to abide by, the teenybopper problem could be eliminated as a real issue.

Matt

P.S.: I can also think of no better way to give these poor clueless jerkoffs an education on how to get along in life, and a constructive, positive attitude.

[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Catiline]

ROFLMAO

Good one

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Oderint dum metuant

[Khan7]

No really, I'm being serious. Like actually, totally serious. Like getting to the point of "well, let's do it!" serious. But if you are amused, that's fine, the world could always use more laughter http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Matt

[Catiline]

Oh I know you're serious Khan.

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Oderint dum metuant

[CaPeFeAr]

BBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAHHHH!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/mad.gif

i feel sooo left out.... i havent been flamed in months.... so plz,, to all my friends and enimies.... do me a favor a flame me once in awhile.. it sure would be nice to belong to a group again http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif

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Fearful Ways - The Mori Family (http://www.FearfulWays.com)

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Khan,

You are VERY correct. In fact, what you describe is the basis for what the BSM has done throughout its existence. As an online group, we also interview and test each applicant. The key is, the BSM has, since shortly after its inception 3+ years ago, been THE group in its chosen forums. The reason = the members are respected in the community not just for their gaming skill, but also their integrity and honor in the forums. This caused much consternation to many of the other groups, who were unable to rise above the petty issues and flame wars.

While we did, and still occasionally do, have run-ins with other groups, they are treated by our own code, and if found lacking, are shunned. Thus, because of what we bring to the community, those who are or were shunned are basically out of luck - they find it hard to get opponents. Those who have proven themselves honorable (though many times not skilled) in battle and in forums have been considered friends, and while in role play we may "war" on them, they are the ones who are offered a place in OUR games, including some that we have developed in house for the strict enjoyment of our members and honored guests.

One such game is the BSM Galactic Domination tourney, the basis of what I once offered as a proposed mod to Shogun to allow online campaigns. That game, in its multiple play throughs, along with our moxie and unwillingness to tolerate cheaters and immature children, created an atmosphere where the forum members strove to uphold the highest standard, whether they were BSM members or not.

Perhaps one day, maybe with the new STW, we may see something similiar in the Shogun community. My one hope for the new shogun - True TCP/IP connectivity for multiplayer. They need to allow us to get away from EA/Play and a centralized server. That way, the community itself could effectively police its ranks, both forum and gaming wise.
In addition to its other benefits, of course. 8-)
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Khan7]

--other benefits, like an increased ability to pirate..

I don't blame them for trying to protect the integrity of their software. Piracy is rampant and we all know it. I for one am very guilty of it.

So please let's not play innocent http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

Matt

Hello Kensen,

I know what you feel like, I have an experience like that everyday. But the positive comments are there too and they give me courage!

Find your place, Kensen...or you wont be happy...

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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Vanya]

Come to think of it... haven't heard anything about Llama Insane lately... GAH! He was shunned! LOL

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Well Khan,

I understand why you say that. However, there are pirate versions of MI/WE out there - along with keygens that allow for online play on EA/PLAY servers. Would it be EASIER to get pirate versions and play multiplayer without a lock into a specific game server? Yes - a small bit. Is it worth the expense of running dedicated servers, trying to control the forum, dealing with the drama, forcing unwanted downtime on your customers? No - not if its a non-effective method of copy protection. True TCP/IP connection would allow for much less latency, the ability of ppl to play regardless of a server outage, etc. In essence, it would give us the consumer more options as far as gaming.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[BakaGaijin]

The easiest solution is an IRC-style /ignore function, allowing the users to permanently ignore other users who they feel are being abusive and just generally don't write anything worth looking at. It's far easier and less open to abuse than any kind of "elite admin" system.

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Yagyu Jubei]

We do have the option of putting people on ignore....I have quite a list that is ignored for all time! Sometimes there are more folks on my ignore list than are in the lobby! LOL
We also have the option of setting up a seperate chatroom on the server that can be password protected....then host games from here. I would suggest that we set up a new "Honor Society". This HS could then have a room on the server with a dedicated password.....by invitation, others could join. This would leave the annoying upstarts to their happy spammland and serious,yet funnloving gamers to enjoy peace in warfare.
Just an idea....

[This message has been edited by Yagyu Jubei (edited 12-04-2001).]

[Vanya]

You think foyer spam is obnoxious now... just wait until TW2 puts speech synthesis on all messages entered into the foyer! Then you can HEAR Llama Insane bashing you while your game awaits someone to join and you are off in the distant lands of the Porcelain offering tribute or something... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/eek.gif

[BSM_Skkzarg]

Vanya,

This again shows how and why true Tcp/Ip connectivity would improve the online gaming community. With it, you could simply log onto the net, co-ordinate via messenger (ICQ, MSN, Paltalk, etc) or any gaming service (such as gamespy) to get a game. Doing this, especially when using a messenger, alleviates the requirement of even being forced to deal with the majority of idiots. Add in the independance of being able to operate without worrying if a server is available, being able to directly connect to your opponent - thus reducing lag and the inadvertent drops, etc.

Forums such as this one would be the meeting places of the various clans, allowing wargames and training skirmishes to be set up on a regular basis.

Unfortunately, I doubt we will get this much needed option.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Khan7]

I still think you underestimate the true potency of the CD key piracy protection. COULD I, theoretically, get around it? Sure. But so far it's been enough to deter me. I just don't feel like messing with it, it would require more knowledge and equipment than I could readily acquire, especially as computer technology is unlikely to be the axis of my career (though I'm glad to be up on the most of it).

But then again, I'm not by any means a hard-core pirate. But then again, neither are most people.

If STW didn't have the CD key catch, I very well may have found a way to copy it by now. Cracks aren't that hard, from what I hear.

So just imagine the comparitively lower level of motivation and computer skills of the vast majority of STW buyers. The CD key is an effective measure.

Matt

[Khan7]

Also, please correct me if I happen to be wrong, but in my experience, server-hosted games generally work out alright, were as all peer-to-peer type things I've messed with have been utter hell, even with fast connections.

Of course this *could* have been simply due to the particular games I was playing and the particular quality of internet programming they recieved, but I had always assumed the trend I have seen is valid.

Matt

[BSM_Skkzarg]

I typed for 30 minutes last nite "correcting" you Khan... BTW u know I use that term in jest. Dangit if DNS got screwy and it didn't post, and when I tried going back it was gone. Oh well.

I guess I will make this a condensed post then eh? There are a number of reasons why true peer to peer connection is superior to using a game "server". Lets state the obvious, any "host" is acting in a similiar role. However, there is a difference between that and a gaming service server - A host plays the game, generates the packets and forwards them, along with recieving the packets and processing them. A game server on the other hand does not have the game process running, but is doing nothing but passing data for numerous games. Now - in theory this would create a fairly decent passthru rate. However, you must consider that in running a central server, you increase the number of hops the data packets must traverse. This alone increases latency. Add in the fact that the game server is not talking to one machine, but 10, 20 or more games, with 2-6 players in each. That makes a range of 20 - 200+ sessions it is tracking. Now, to make it even more fun, you often have the "chat" backend running on the same machine, as we see occuring in Shogun. Should a service offer a news forum, as EA/Play does with our beloved S:TW and MI/WE, it also is part of the processes taking resources on the server. Alone, each of these is minimal - added together they easily can drag down even a top line machine at times. This doesn't even account for the fact that all those additional hops just increase the chance that one of the routers in the circuit is busy and thus drastically increases lag, or worse yet - drops some of your packets entirely due to congestion.

With true TCP/IP connection - you minimize the hops, allowing for better ping times along with less change of hitting congestion. You can also ensure that any machine in the loop is capable of standing the load - assuming you and your opponents have capable machines, there is no question involved.

For instance, does anyone remember the old gaming forums? I mean the originals - Heat.net and the rest? From there it went to Mplayer.com after Heat went under. From Mplayer it has progressed to Gamespy - and regardless of the increase in technology, one constant has remained a great challenge -LAG! For those who played in those forums, and still do in Gamespy - you will know exactly what I mean. The reason - its not feasible for a BUSINESS to devote enough resources to the games they make "accessible".

Face fact - the reason EA/Play is in existence is not to defend against piracy. It is there to make money. We as shogun players do not contribute - but EA/Play is, for the most part, a pay service. My wife and I have an EA/Play account since she plays Majestic - and trust me - its not free.
Companies like EA/Play were formed on the idea that they could replicate a one-shot wonder - Battlenet by Blizzard. Westwood tried it with WON, EA has tried it with EA/Play, Cavedog did it with Boneyards. And overall, the results have been terrible.

Another example - online persistent games such as UO, Everquest, WW2Online, etc - all still suffer from lag on a nearly everday and extended basis. Granted the situation technically is a bit different, but the reasoning behind it are still the same - and face it - the big MMORPG are not using "servers", they are using server farms...

As for peer to peer games being troublesome -peer to peer gaming is what got online play going - starting with the game Quake. (I personally loathe all FPS games - the thief series excluded - and it was a FP Sneaker - not Shooter) Peer to Peer is the reason Multiplayer is as big as it is, and service/forced server games is why more and more veterans are getting sick and tired of online play. If I want to get online and play a friend, I can msg him online, send him my IP and poof - game is on. I don't have to log into a service, read or hear a bunch of 10 year olds whining, flaming and being arses just to get a game. If I want to play someone new, then I can choose to utilize a gaming service as an OPTION - or post in the appropriate forums for new opponents. Being forced to deal with the idiots of the gaming world is why the originator of this thread started it in the first place.

The kicker is, game companies are truly ripping off consumers when it comes to internet play. If you own C&C 2 or Red Alert 2 and WON goes out of business - you will not be able to play anyone except on a LAN. With Shogun and its expansion, if EA/Play folds, or if it decides the server or servers we use are better used elsewhere - our ability to play online with each other disappears. That alone is a travesty. While EA/Play may be here for a long time, one cannot assume that. And if they go, what are we left with? A great game with fantastic multiplayer - that cannot be fully enjoyed.

I admit - this is one of my pet peeve's - ever since I lost the ability to play online a game I enjoyed due to a business decision.
Game companies make every excuse or "reason" - saying they are providing additional "service" to the customer, or that straight tcp-ip gaming requires the consumer to have some technical knowledge (you have to be able to get your IP addy - challenging - most ppl either know or have enough sense to ask someone who will know). Regardless of the reasoning - its a mistake to advertise multiplayer when its likely that the resources will be removed and make the option unavailable to the consumer. One major question when MI/WE came out - what was going to happen to the original server. For us, EA/Play is using the same server for both editions - but what about when Medievil arrives - will the original Shogun get capped to give the new game a spot? These are the questions that show WHY tcp-ip gaming should be returned to the standard. If they want to include their service as an OPTION - fine - do so and get ppl to come because you offer them something. But don't force me into using your service to play online and then think your doing me a favor.

Microsoft is still trying to keep from getting sent to its room by the courts for doing exactly the same type thing - forcing customers to use things they may not want - all in the name of "service", just to access an advertised function. The technicals are alot different, but the underlying legal stances are the same, and game companies would do well to pay attention. Personally, I doubt it will be much longer before you start seeing class action suits against companies that force their "service" on consumers who wish to access an adverised feature such as multiplayer.

Face it - giving us the customer the option to do things outside of their service should be manditory. If TCP/IP was implemented - as it used to be - then not only would you not be locked into a specific service - other services could support the product - which not only would allow you the customer a choice - but would also put the product in a place where it could get more exposure - and thus more sales.

It should be standard - for the good of the gamer, the good of the community - and the good of the companies who make the games as well.
Qapla!

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BSM_Skkzarg
"A mind is a terrible thing to taste."

[Catiline]

Let's keep this discussion off CD keys and piracy lads. Period. If it crops up again i'm closing this thread. Be advised

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Oderint dum metuant

[Trousermonkey]

I agree completely with BSM_Skkzarg and though I see Khan7's point, it isn't enough of an excuse to punish legal owners of the game by forcing them to use an EA mandated server. The fact that it increases latency, forces us to deal with immature players, and server outages almost completely invalidate the multiplayer option, reduces it's overall quality as a game.
It's ok to provide a central service to help shelter newbies from the trials of messing with IP addresses and port settings but forcing everyone to use this 'feature' is wrong.
I hope CA looks at the angst having a centralized server has caused the multiplayer community to date (remember discussions in the org about spam bombs?) and allows P2P in MTW. This is as important as any other nifty new graphics or gameplay features they might add to the engine.

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Trousermonkey:
...I hope CA looks at the angst having a centralized server has caused the multiplayer community to date (remember discussions in the org about spam bombs?) and allows P2P in MTW. This is as important as any other nifty new graphics or gameplay features they might add to the engine.[/QUOTE]

Even if they don't look at that, there is always the question of whether EA/CA wants to devote its own resources to maintaining a web farm/server to support the online gaming venue even though they derive no revenue from it. It seems as they set themselves up for continuous costs... eventually, it just won't be worthwhile for them to sustain the server and it will be removed. THEN what do we do?!?

[MIZILUS]

LLAMA INSANE???? AAAAAAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!! Did we have to bring him up again! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif He is like the mother of all rude spammers though.

[MountainSoul]

Well considering that the original post by Kensen is actually referring to me I may as well grace him with an answer.
Dont be a hypocrite Kensen,I have seen your language and arrogance rival that of my own at times.And as for your "innocent m8" well some things are never to be jested about as far as I'm concerned and I have the right just like anyone else does to say what I feel and to bare the consequences of my words.So stop whining Kensen or u will go into my book of"whingy cant deal with its".As far as everyone elses posts are concerned here,Isecond most of what they are saying especially the concerns about being able to IP join and the fear of our shogun servers' possible future demise.Pirates will never be stopped, it is a part of their nature to keep stealing and to find new ways of stealing things.So come on EA your fighting a losing battle so just give us the ability to IP join please.

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winning and losing exist in the future, the future does not exist, concentrate on these two things and you will always fail no matter what the outcome.

[Shiro]

No more of this topic. It can only be more flaming. The point has been made. Thread closed.