War of the Roses

[Duke John]

Hey all

Since this is the place where all the knowledge of medieval times are discussed I ask you wether a mod about the War of the Roses is viable. I know that quite a few battles were fought during it, but I still have questions about that particular time. I'm starting to get really interested into this and it might be a "small" side-project from the Lord of the Rings mod I'm working on with a team.

I have a background of miniature-wargaming and I've had a great interest of the composition of the armies of that age, to me they seem as very balanced armies composed of professional well-equipped soldiers. When I decide to make this mod I will thus also make completely new unit graphics to make the units more realistic. The art at the site of www.by-the-sword.com is really inspiring: War of the Roses art (http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/Military_Art.html).

And now the questions:
- What was the timespan of the War of the Roses?
- How many factions were involved?
- What was the exact goal of those factions?
- Which part of England was involved, did Ireland also make an appearance?
- Do you think that the War of the Roses is interesting enough for a campaign?

I thank you for your time.

Cheers, Duke John

[TheSilverKnight]

30 years, from 1455-1485
2 factions. Houses of Lancaster and York
To put their factions on the throne of England.
All of England was involved, but most of the fighting took place in the North and Middle of England. Scotland helped the house of York, and since Ireland was owned by England, it didn't help, there were no battles.
Yes I do.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Duke John]

That was quick Most questions from the first post are answered unless someone feels they are incorrect. I'm trying to get all the necessary historic facts in one place before I start making the mod so let me make a summuration, please correct me if I'm wrong:

Number of Factions:
Two major factions: House of Lancaster and the House of York
However was there no switching of sides? Were the two factions really solid or were there some Dukes neutral/betrayers?
Two sides would be perhaps hinder replayability...

Place of Conflict:
The battles took place in middle and Northern England.
Does this rule out naval combat? I certainly hope so since the AI isn't good at it at all and it merely gives the player an advantage.

Time of Conflict:
1455-1485. If I recall correctly the death of one of the houses claim to the throne was killed in combat and ended the strife.
This is a short span of time and if we use one turn = one year you would have 30 turns to end the game. It would be a race against time with a great emphasize on winning crucial battles. This might be interesting since it's quite different from the build-an-empire-play that is MTW.

Armies in the War of the Roses:
Units that saw the battlefield were:
- Billmen
- Longbowmen
- Men-at-arms, both mounted and on foot
- Knights, both mounted and on foot
- Handgunners
- Artillery
- ?
What was the use of cavalry during the WotR? Was it still capable of effectively performing a charge or were the Billmen too strong for them?

Cheers, Duke John

[TheSilverKnight]

You can also make the Scots and Western Irish (Irish) playable as well, for they retained their independence. At this time, also, there was a civil war in Scotland between a descendant of the Picts, and the Scots. If you decide to add the Scottish civil war, make the Picts playable as well. It would add much playability. The Vikings (Danes and Norse) should be playable, but they should also be under the rule of one King. It would be interesting to make it 30 years, for it would be a war of battles, not conquest.
Oh, and some WotR battles took place in Wales, in the western provinces mainly, between Henry VI of Lancaster and Edward IV of York.

Your mod sounds cool, and I would love to try it out. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mamushi]

Sounds very interesting....hope to see it soon
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What,not done yet? Get to work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brother Derfel]

Quote[/b] (Duke John @ July 31 2003,11:06)]Time of Conflict:
1455-1485. If I recall correctly the death of one of the houses claim to the throne was killed in combat and ended the strife.
This is a short span of time and if we use one turn = one year you would have 30 turns to end the game. It would be a race against time with a great emphasize on winning crucial battles. This might be interesting since it's quite different from the build-an-empire-play that is MTW.
Well, it was only the Death of Richard III at Bosworth feild that saw the end of the WOR, so effectively the campaign could be longer if he does not die in combat without a son to back up his houses claim. The war could continue as long as there are claiments on each side.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Although the battle of Bosworth was in 1485,there were still resistance under pretenders such as Lambert simnel and Perkin Walbeck and more pitched battles, such as at Stoke in 1487 when Henry VII defeated Simnel, the Earl of Lincoln with Irish soldiers and Landsknecht Mercenaries under Martin Schwarz.
Walbeck got support from the Earl of Desmond in Ireland but fled when more support was not forthcoming. He sailed to Scotland and raided Northern England with James IV.
Rebellion broke out in Cornwall, sweeping over five counties before being stopped at Blackheath and when Walbeck landed in Devon in August 1496 and gathered a force of some 8,000, he was repulsed at Exeter. He was captured and spared, only to die later in another plot, along side Edward of Clarence.

[Lazul]

Cerect if im wrong, but during one of the great battles, non of the two houses knew what side Plantagnet was on, untill it was to late and Plantagent won the day on... hmm lancasters side... uh?.
So I was wondering; Was Plantagnet another house? if so, shouldnt it be playable?

[TheSilverKnight]

No. Plantagenet split up into the houses of York and Lancaster. It was the same family, but a civil war was going on between them during the Wars of the Roses.
if I am allowed to give a short history lesson http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ...

Edward IV and Henry VI were both great great-grandsons of Edward III, by Edward III's sons John of Gaunt and Edmund of York. When the Wars of the Roses broke out over who would become the King, Edward IV was only a young boy, but already a distinguished military commander. Henry VI had been ruling for a long while, and over the course of the war, the two vied for control of the geographical regions of Northumbria and Mercia. In the west of Wales, fierce battles broke out in a campaign conducted by the Earl of Warrick "The Kingmaker" who fought for York, and the Earl of Essex, for fought for Lancaster. In the end, in 1485, at Bosworth, it was Lancaster who won the war. Henry Tudor, who became Henry VII, was descended from Edward III by his grand-father, who married a grand-daughter of Edward III. There's my short history of the day. Look forward to one more of these tomorrow. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Duke John]

It appears that more people are interested into this. The more I start thinking about it the more I like to make a mod of it. It's a very interesting piece of history and can be quite accurately recreated (although I couldn't find any books in the library I might purchase a book about the WotR.

This campaign will also be quite different from the normal one because of its short time span. The goal is to become the King of England and that should be accomplished within just a few decades. The campaign will focus on battles/sieges and not on building up an empire.

I will start a "Wars of the Roses" thread soon in the Dungeon. I would greatly appreciate if any historians will come along. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

Cheers, Duke John

[TheSilverKnight]

A good book I recommend (if it's available) is book 2 of "A Royal History of England" called "The Wars of the Roses". It has much information on battles and the Kings at this time. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif