View Full Version : Naginata and Heavy Cavalry
DemonArchangel
08-01-2003, 00:54
what'
s the difference between naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry and why is font in the sword dojo different from the rest of the org.
Well if you rightclick on the unit of a naginata cavalry it tells you exactly what the difference is. I will give you a quick description of what I can remember, The naginata cavalry is not as heavily armoured as the heavy cavalry is but but have sharp heavy blade attached to a short pole wich can quickly slash through armour much quicker and easier than the heavy cavalry's sword.
Not really sure what the weapon is called that thay carry but it looks like a short blade that is curved back and on a pole
frogbeastegg
08-01-2003, 10:30
Oaty the polearms a naginata, it's the same thing the naginata infantry and warrior monks use. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The sword dojo looks different because it's in the 'Sword Dojo' skin style. Take a look in your control panel -> account options -> board skin. If you set it to 'Sword dojo'; the whole org will look like this, otherwise it changes automatically. This is what the org used to look like pre MTW.
Go to this page (http://pub133.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm1.showMessage?topicID=4323.topic), near the bottom is a good section on naginata cavalry and heavy cavalry. Have fun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
TenkiSoratoti
08-01-2003, 12:31
To cut that long story short, Naginata cavs if used with the correct precision are the kings of the battle field. They are cheaper than heavy cavs and they are more efficient at blowing a quick strike on enemy missile units. They are also very effective for flanking enemy units aswell. They have almost as good charging bonus as heavy cavs but they tend not to be able to hold out as much. All in all they are the cavalry to pick, they are faster, cheaper and more effecient and can get out of trouble a hell of alot easier than heavy cavs.
So in campaign go for them and definately in multiplayer.
TS
Pdifolco
08-01-2003, 13:07
Naginata Cav ROCKS http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I'm playing a game with a good NC unit under a 5 star general, and in battle the unit usually kills 100-200 foes while losing 5-7 men http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
With improved Armor and Honor, and coupled with WM (I'm playing Mori), and some SA/CA for support, I don't have much to fear http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The NC is designed to be an assault cav. It has the strongest offensive melee and the highest morale of all the cav types with medium armor and speed, so you can use it to lead a frontal assault with the intent of forcing a breach in the enemy line as quickly as possible. The HC is also strong enough to make frontal assaults, but it's more defensive in combat stats and won't force a breakthough as quickly as the NC. The YC is better used as a flanker since it has high speed and high charge but lower melee and morale and lighter armor. The YC is also gets the yari bonus of +4 attack vs the other cav types. That allows a YC to beat an NC head to head, but it's not enough to defeat the HC, although, it can do some damage to an HC.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
Sasaki Kojiro
08-01-2003, 16:36
Naginata cavalry will beat No-dachi with ease and defeat Warrior monks without too much trouble. They cut down ranged units faster than the other cavalry types. They lose to Yari Cavalry however.
TenkiSoratoti
08-01-2003, 18:51
Mimesaka you talking 1.02 or 1.03 here?
TS
Sasaki Kojiro
08-01-2003, 19:28
Both I think? I haven't tested them on 1.03 Warrior monks though.
DemonArchangel
08-02-2003, 00:04
Eh.... Well, it seems that naginata cavalry are more useful than heavy cavalry, especially if backed up with cavalry archers and warrior monks.
The same relationships should hold in v102 and v103, although, the monks did get a boost in v103, and the cav all had their charge increased and melee lowered. The overall effect was to increase the rock, paper, scissors of spears, shock and cav. However, more than ever you have to get a clean charge with cav in v103 to get their full potential.
Archers also got more arrows in v103 but less melee to increase the rock, paper, scissors of inf, ranged and cav. Musket firepower was toned down slightly and had their melee reduced so that cav can successfully charge unguarded guns. Muskets and archers are in a better balance in v103.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
TenkiSoratoti
08-02-2003, 00:45
1.02:-
Nag Cav dont beat Warrior monks and No-dachi.
1.03:-
Nag cavs do beat ND and WM quite comfortably.
Hence the Rock, Paper, Scissors theory.
TS
Sasaki Kojiro
08-02-2003, 01:55
Quote[/b] (Tenkisoratoti @ Aug. 01 2003,18:45)]1.02:-
Nag Cav dont beat Warrior monks and No-dachi.
In the tests I did in custom battles the Nag cav beat WM and ND quite easily and custom battles use the 1.02 stat I believe.
The NC can win or loose to WM in both v102 and v103. It all depends on how many charge kills the NC gets. In v102 the NC is 11/4/1 (chg/att/def) and the WM is 4/5/2. In v103 the NC is 16/4/0 and the WM is 4/4/4. The WM is actually stronger in v103 than it is in v102. The real WM killer is the HC at 9/2/7 in v102 and 14/2/6 in v103.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
TenkiSoratoti
08-02-2003, 17:18
OK Mimesaka I was talking about Multiplayer, custom battles are a whole different story.....
TS
AggonyShim2
08-04-2003, 01:53
in old shogun the cavalry of choice was the Yari cavs, in MI/WE my cavalry of choice is Naginata Cavalry. I have NEVER used a heavy cavalry unit in multiplayer and i never intend to. I like NagCav's speed, strength, and durability. they are very reliable. i have always frowned on HC's huge price. you can add honour to NC to compensate for what the HC does better at a same price. But the best cavalry unit is Cavalry archers.. period...
TenkiSoratoti
08-06-2003, 17:50
I hate cav archers, just place a musky unit on the flank, and shadow the CA's movement with rotation. CA are muskies worst enemy and visa versa.
TS
AggonyShim2
08-09-2003, 04:13
hehe sora... if you ever learned how to properly use the cav archers... you would learn to respect them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
TenkiSoratoti
08-10-2003, 12:21
Quote[/b] (AggonyShim2 @ Aug. 08 2003,22:13)]hehe sora... if you ever learned how to properly use the cav archers... you would learn to respect them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Um.... I know how to use CA (smart ass) I just think they are a waste of good H2H muscle koku. Besides anyone who tries to harrass me with CA gets them crushed. They are no match for a shadowing unit of muskies. Maybe its just me being great as usual j/k j_o_k_e.
TS
Not really related to the topic at hand but....
Naginata cavalry seems to be BS to me. I'm not sure it would even be possible to wield a naginata on horseback. Why didn't the developers make them nagaMAKI cavalry? (The weapon the WM carry for some reason or another) The nagamaki was a mounted soldiers weapon. It was like a sword blade mounted on a 4 foot handle (estimate). The rider could lean forward and stand in the saddle and wield the weapon in a figure 8 pattern over the head of the horse. This was excellent for dispersing troops. So what the deal with NM??
DemonArchangel
08-14-2003, 02:25
Meh, It may be possible to wield a naginata on horseback, it just takes skillz. Also Tenkisoratoti, while the Muskies are shadowing the CA's, i'd just attack em' from behind.
TenkiSoratoti
08-14-2003, 20:01
Demon are you speaking on behalf of the muskies side or the CA's side? As in who attacks from behind?
Even though I'm not any good in MP, but I find it's really hard to flank or rear attack the other player. CA are my killing machine in SP, but in MP I had no chance against guns, spears and YC.
For example, I faced this type of army a few times in MP (3 times 1vs1 on Iron Board). Once, my oponent had 6 muskets, 6 YS, 2 Ashi and 2 YC. It was imposible to flank using different army and tactics. My oponent just won't break formation. Fontal assault, my units routed (even HC) before reaching the oponent line. Facing this kind of formation, I don't think that CA would ever have a chance.
http://www.pdoan8.com/Deployment.jpg
Sasaki Kojiro
08-15-2003, 17:16
I've found Cavalry Archers very useful in MP. You don't have to send them out onto the flank of your opponent, you just need them a bit to the side, facing your opponent at an angle. From this position you can either shoot at his ranged units or at a cavalry unit of his on his flank. Since the 4 max rule is always used your opponent won't have more muskets than you, so if he tries to shoot your CA with his muskets you can shoot his muskets in the flank. Also, near the end of the ranged war when some of his ranged units have routed off you can use the cav archer to move closer in and shoot at his infantry, you can use their speed to retreat quickly if he sends his yari cav after you, his yc won't be able to catch the ca until it has reached your main line. When the infantry units have engaged I usually use my left over ca to attack any musks he has left or to charge into the rear of his troops at the right time. They also make good routing troop chasers.
And all for 230 koku http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Nag Cav are my favourite unit in all the TW games so far (& I don't see that changing with Rome).
I just love the way you can sweep the field with a couple of groups of 3 or 4 units of Nag Cav http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
In places you just leave tidy little rectangles of enemy soldiers as the unit was annihilated completely before they even had a chance to run...
Irving, my recollection from reading TWOTD.pdf is that CA didn't really know the difference between Nagamaki and Naginata.
They talk about the (older) short and (more recent) long Naginata.
Monks have short (Nagimaki), while Naginata have the long proper Naginata.
I think I remember (been a long time since I read it) that the Nag Cav had started off using long naginata (mostly as a spear/lance) but had recently started to use short naginata (Nagimaki) with consequent improvement in effectiveness.
Might have been the other way around though...
pdoan8,
The v102 patch has strong muskets to deter the rush. My own feeling is that they are unnecessarily strong in that regard, and you even have trouble charging muskets with naginata cav without routing before you get there. The naginata cav was supposed to be able to do that. The v102 also forgot to reduce the musketeers defensive combat value, so, even if the cav get to them, the musket holds for a long time which means a yari unit can come from a long distance and kill the cav unit. The idea was supposed to be that you would have to keep a yari unit close to the musket to protect it from cav attack. In addition, the musket power was boosted after the archer vs musket balance had been set. The result is that archers are no match for muskets, and they were supposed to be able to knock the musket down to about 30 men in a duel by the time they ran out of ammo. If you play the v102 with rain you'll get some idea how I wanted the musket balance to be. So, right now in v102 you have to counter muskets with muskets to weaken them enough that the infantry and cav can enter the firing zone.
The v103 fixes all this by weakening muskets in firepower by about 10%, increasing the reload time by 3 seconds and reducing the defend combat value several points. In addition, the super yari ashigaru problem is fixed, and archers are boosted from 28 arrows to 36 arrows making them more of a threat to muskets and a huge threat to monks who had their armor reduced but their morale raised. The v103 also raised the defend value of all units by 1 to increase the time a unit fights thus giving more time for flanking moves. This was necessary because inf was slowed down in v102 to compensate for a speed up due to some network code bug fixes, but the fighting speed was not slowed down, which made the tactics in v102 different from those of original STW since inf has less time to get around a flank of a fighing unit before the combat is resolved, and it was slower on top of that. You actually have time to flank with inf in v103 because of the increase time that units fight. Annie aptly called v102 a shoot 'n rush game and the v103 a flanking game. You also get increased charge on cav and lowered melee which maximizes the ability of spears to defeat cav since spears nullify a frontal charge which allows cav to remain strong against non-spear units as long as it charges the target. The point being that the rock, paper, scissors of spears, shock and cav is stretched as far as it can go given the fixed 8 point anti-cav bonus of spears.
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