How useful is JHC now?

[tootee]

I see quite a number of vet using more JHC now. Are they more useful, as compared to NC? I feel they are slower and do not kill as fast as NC, and their honor is lower. Maybe I have not been using them correctly *I do not have much success using them*

--tootee aka goldfish

[Catiline]

I never used them before. Now i do, always take a couple. Beyond that i don't know how to quantify it.

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Oderint dum metuant

[Puzz3D]

tootee,

They are the most powerful cav, but have all the deficiencies you mention. They are useful as a blocking force giving you time to get another cav unit around for flank attack, and they can defeat the WM.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[Kraellin]

tootee,

jhc are much more useful now. they are now equal to their cost, whereas before they werent worth the koku. now they are. they run faster, hit harder, block better and in general are almost, not quite, but almost, like european 'heavy horse'. they make an exceptional taisho unit now and have much better staying power.

in one 4v4 game i played i had about 6 units left. the taisho was hc. i had units from 3 different enemy armies hitting me from 2 sides and things were looking pretty bleak. the taisho managed to survive and chew up 24 ninjas, several small rushes, arrow attacks, furballs (those big clumps of multiple units all stuck in melee together), and assorted other attacks, until yuuki was able to charge in for the rescue and help me out. the hc taisho had about 12 men left and the general and never wavered, never routed. he also lent his morale support to whatever else i had around him at that time.

these units now have the staying power of a naginata, the fighting power of a monk, the speed of cavalry, the armor to soak up missiles and the rushing power of a higher charge value. they are now good, solid units. when used as the taisho unit they can dash around and give support, plug up holes, lend morale, flank, and even chase down other units.

instead of being the worst unit for the koku, they are prolly now the best bang for the buck in the game.

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[BakaGaijin]

Now THAT'S an endorsement! I haven't used the online yet (old prejudice... I'm used to them being worthless. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif), but they can work miracles in SP. On the other hand, I've found Nagi Cav to be less-than-stellar performers. I suppose I shouldn't complain, considering how much cheaper those are. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Disappear into the Darkness!!

[Chaguhun Khan]

Alright, those will fit right in with my plan http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.

Chagu the Hun(just trying out a new title)

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Chaguhun Khan]

And tootee, thats How useful are(not is) JHC? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[Gothmog]

Here is an illustration of how useful both the JHC and JNC.

Level: expert.
Province: Harima
Attacker-ronin: 2 SA, 3 YS, 3 YA
Defender-Mori: 1 SA, 1YS, 1 HC (46 men), 1NC (46 men)
AI-general lvl: 0
Mori-general lvl: 2

What I did: placed the YS on the hill, placed SA in two ranks right behind the YS, told both units to hold formation and position.

Marched the calvary down the hill, HC from the left, NC from the right. Basically ran half way accross the field, with AI YS troops on their tail. Eventually a window of opportunity opened, both calvary closed in, decimated a SA unit.

Then while the AI's YS taisho was charging uphill at my YS, I ordered my HC to charge UPHILL at the rear of the taisho, told the NC to keep running. Again, AI's Yari troops were still chasing both of the calvary units.

AI's YA caught up with my HC taisho, charged at MY back.

My NC was able to reach the top of the small slope, then charged downhill at the flank of the AI's taisho unit. At the same time, told my YS to release hold and engaged at will, charging at the taisho unit as well.

AI's taisho was killed. End of the story.

Kill ratio: HC 133 vs 13, NC 160 vs 9.

[Obake]

Since this thread is turning more into a general "relative value of Cavalry" thread rather than specifically HC, I'm going to add my opinion to the fray.

I've seen HC go from being the most reviled unit on the battlefield to being one of the most useful and functional units in the game. It used to be rare that I would see an HC in an opponents army, but now it is rare if I DON'T see one. With their current set of stats, Kraellin perfectly describes their use.

NC can be a very scary unit both for the user and for the enemy. Weak against foot Yari and YC, they are devastating against virtually any other unit and a close match for the HC.

YC are the Cav killers capable of taking out NC and CA and dealing a blow to HC in HTH. Not to mention being the fastest Cav in the Japanese arsenal, they are even more effective in a flanking role than they were before and you ignore them at your peril.

Not going to go into CA's as I haven't used them since the patch was released, but the ability to use them as harrassers on the flank is enhanced with the morale boost that they got.

One thing that has become very clear to me is the balance of the Cav against each other, let alone against infantry. A battle that took place Saturday night illustrates this well.

MizuYuuki (Puzz3d), Jun, Polar and myself played a 2x2 on Polar's new map, UP Kawanakajima (which is outstanding BTW and available for download at the Org's map section). Yuuki and I were defending with myself on the far left (defenders perspective). Jun, on my far right, pushed forward against Yuuki's right flank while Polar advanced against his center trying to knock him out before I could join the fray. Yuuki had a strong setup with a well-reinforced right flank including 2 H4 NC. Jun sent his H2 YC's against them and lost heavily even though the NC were surrounded. In the meantime, Yuuki's left flank had routed Polar's H2 NC and I gave chase with my 2 H3 YC. Polar was able to rally his units, but after a short fierce battle, his NC were no more.

My point is that the Cavalry in this game are so superbly balanced against each other (actually they all are, but we're talking Cav here) that a single honor, weapon or armor upgrade can make the difference between winning a Cavalry battle and losing one.

It was a costly lesson for Jun who got trashed in his first game online with the patch, but who admitted afterwards that he loved every minute of it!

I think Kraellin summed it up best in a battle last week when he jokingly claimed that "this is better than ______!". (fill in your own past-time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif ).

It's not, but when a battle hinges on a weapon upgrade to a No-Dachi, or a last ditch charge by an HC Taisho that saves your rear and breaks the enemy you know that we've got a great game!

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Obake

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

First off, Heavy Cavalry beats Naginata cavalry in a one-on-one encounter.

Secondly, the NC has been downgraded, now NC don't beat easily a monk anymore for example, while the HC can.

However, the NC with its high morale can do better effect in frontal attacks. I use HC to help in a difficult flank for example, and it is hyper-effective. I loooove them. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
It wasn't the first time they saved me...

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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Chaguhun Khan]

Hence why I'm a Cav freak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. You know , we could go on and on about how Jap cav support each other so well, but why not just use MHC and MLC? They do everything that all the others do and they're only 2 units. Ahhh, the wonders of being a Mongol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

[This message has been edited by Chaguhun Khan (edited 12-03-2001).]

[tootee]

Quote Originally posted by Chaguhun Khan:
Hence why I'm a Cav freak http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. You know , we could go on and on about how Jap cav support each other so well, but why not just use MHC and MLC? They do everything that all the others do and they're only 2 units. Ahhh, the wonders of being a Mongol http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif.
[/QUOTE]

well, the cav are not everything. Unless you are AMP. He did wonder with his 15 CA in a 3v3 we had last weekend, getting the most kills, running about in the map (and I really mean AROUND the map) exploiting opening.. just cool, AMP. But don't think he can pull of that one in a 1v1 http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

So I sum up what I've gather so far, that HC is useful now, and so are the other cav (at per cost), and so are the other foot units (wm is a still a dont-leave-home-w/o-them).. hmm that is really a balanced army then.

So.. anyone pull of a victory in 1v1 with an unbalanced army in patch 1.02b so far?

[Chaguhun Khan]

Well, I've done a little strat reformating and I have quite a good balance where every unit is doing their job perfectly. What a way to test it, against Kocmoc http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif. *gulp*

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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans

Where is AMP btw?
Didn't see him long time... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Tangent]

AMP is often playing under the name AMPMortog. He is definitely around. He has my heads to prove it!

Tangent

[Vanya]

I see... interesting... now I know who he is... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

He was AMPMortog for over 6 months now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Didn't see him much, he is not in my timezone though!

Tera

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Honour to Clan Torîi Aku.

Visit my resource centre here! (http://terazawa.totalwar.org)
Evil is within us... http://terazawa.totalwar.org/emo.gif

[Vanya]

I've seen old man Mortog every once and a while...

[MountainSoul]

Hay Krae they were my ninja 8) and yes very impressive was the way your general hc unit fought , they must have a massive moral bonus but i find the best way to use them is quite boring actually .Hold position and hold formation when the attacking unit gets to just above half strength or at around two thirds strength I press e and watch my fresh hc swallow whatever is left in the attacking unit and very satisfyingly chase them away.

[Kraellin]

for those wondering about Amp. heh. he whupped us last night. great game with myself, yuuki, uglypolar on one team, major dump, krast, and amp on the other. it came down to amp defending and yuuki attacking, with me and polar having little to nothing left after taking out dump and krast. amp finally won it with a stellar defense against yuuki. his army, primarily high honor ys and middle honor guns, never broke against yuuki's army, and managed to hold against polar, me, and yuuki all hitting him from 3 sides.

nice D, amp!

K.


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I'm sorry, but i never apologize.

[theforce]

One word. Cav rushing. That is what everybody is doing mate now. It's either monks or guns or cav or all together. It's just sad!

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Don't use only honour, use theforce, too.
http://lod.nipogames.com/default.html

[Puzz3D]

The cav are neutralized by YS as AMP demonstrated with his 7 YS in that 3v3 that Krae mentions. That situation was actually a stalemate with AMP completely surrounded, and the attackers having too many cav to break through the ring of YS, but attacking anyway because they are the attackers. There is no set army that always wins as far as I can tell, but you can certainly show up with an army that doesn't matchup well to your opponent's army.

MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~

[tootee]

.. so at the end of the day, it still goes back to Sun Tzu words, know your enemy, know his tactics, know his army ..

--goldfish