Stupid Ghulams...

[Rowan11088]

OK, is it just me, or do Ghulam Cavalry just suck (at least for Turkish)? I just spent quite a while building that spearman's guild, to find that ghulams are exactly the same as Armenian Heavy Cavalry except with a lower charge. WHY? It's a complete waste of time, because I also have a province where Armenian Heavies gain +1 valor, so there's no need whatsoever for the Ghulams. Unless I'm missing something, aren't these units useless, unless maybe you're playing Almohads or something?

[Shahed]

For SP i guess you could use them for variety and some historical tactics e.g Ghulams guarding the Sultan, Sipahi on the right, perhaps mix of Ghulams and AHC on the left. Janissaries in center, with Akinci (Turcoman) forward.

Most Muslim cavalry in the game sux in comparison to the other factions. For Turks SP I think AHC are good.

[Aelwyn]

I find in MP Ghulams seem to do better than AHC, at least for me. In SP, I don't see the need to build extra buildings just to get them. Especially since you can get AHC at v1 already.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I seldom use AHC in MP and always got Ghulam... +2 charge for 25 fl (*1.7*1.7...). http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

It's arguable both ways I think...

Now the real good thing about Ghulam is they look damn good And that's all that matters...

Louis the Simurgh,

[Crash]

Best use for Ghulams is in the desert battles. They and Saharan calvary are excellent calvary in places like Syria, Morroco, Algeria, Cyrenaica, Egypt, Sinai, Palestine, Arabia, Antioch, and Tripoli. The European heavy calvary will become exhausted almost immediately in the desert, so the Ghulams and Saharans can run rings around them.

Other than that the AHC does give you more bang for the buck. If you're the Almohad, however, they are the only heavy calvary that you can build.

[Shahed]

What I find really funny is that Mamluk Cav Archers tire in desert waaaaay too fast, even though the desert was their primary habitat. They should really tire like Saharan Cavalry, or at least closer to it.

[jLan]

Mod thy game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Rowan11088]

Well getting tired is unfortunately based entirely upon armor level (and other non-unique factors like being on cavalry, etc.), so Islamic units really don't have any special advantage in the desert, except that they are more often less armored, and their higher stat units are also less armored. If you build a Master Armourer, all your desert units coming out of that province will suck in the desert, because they will still overheat in all that armor (which is odd, cuz higher armorers should just make better quality armor, not just tons of extra layers of steel). More on-topic, Ghulams are no better in the desert than Armenian Heavies as far as I know, because both have the same armor level, and are identical besides their charge rating. I honestly don't understand why Ghulams were given to the Turks, unless it's purely for historical value. I think 25 florins for 2 charge is a pretty good deal.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

In custom game or MP, if you give v2 to ghulam this 25 becomes 73 fl... Is +2 still worth it?

Louis the Simurgh,

[Spino]

Ghulam Cavalry doesn't 'suck', it simply reflects historical reality which saw Muslim nations unable (for the most part) to field an answer to the heavy cavalry of Europe. Ghulam Cav is excellent medium cavalry that, unlike Armenian Heavy Cav, you can build anywhere. If you absolutely insist on having heavy cavalry then make sure you get Khwarazmian Heavy Cav or if possible, Golden Horde Heavy Cav or Avar Nobles, as these are the only heavy cavalry units available to Muslim factions that can put up a reasonable fight against the heavy horse of the west.

I suggest you play to the strengths of the Turks and rely more heavily on horse archers to harrass and disrupt the enemy before engaging him with your medium and heavy cavalry and infantry. I personally think the Turks got shortchanged with respect to units but you'd be surprised what several units of Turcoman Horse can do if you use them correctly.


Quote[/b] ]What I find really funny is that Mamluk Cav Archers tire in desert waaaaay too fast, even though the desert was their primary habitat. They should really tire like Saharan Cavalry, or at least closer to it.

Am I the only one that feels that CA treated the Mamluk cavalry units like the red headed stepchildren of Egypt? While reasonably priced I think Mamluks are somewhat underpowered, especially when you consider that these elite cavalry units are meant to keep Egypt competitve in the High and Late eras. Mamluk Horse Archers are inferior to Byzantine Cavalry and yet cost the same (375 florins) and Mamluk Cavalry seem to be an afterthought to provide Egypt with medium cavalry that possesses armor piercing weaponry. I would sooner pay more for more capable cavalry with higher morale.

[Crash]

I agree that Mamluk Horse Archers are shortchanged. After all, the Egyptians used Mamluks to defeat the Mongols. They are the supposed to be the "elite" troops of the Egyptians.

[jLan]

Saladin also used vast hordes of Mamluks to defeat the Frankish crusaders I believe...

[Shahed]

It would be interesting....the heavy cavalry of Europe was developed in part to counter the cavalry threats from the East. This threat was best demostrated by the Mongols and thereafter the Turks. The Mongols and the Turks proved their cavalry to be far more versatile and by far superior to European cavalry. Later in Ottoman history the Sipahi became embrolied in the economic crises and corruption and after 1700 (approx) the Turkish cavalry began to decline. This is to the best of my knowledge.


Quote[/b] ]even in the late 16th century Europeans, while considering their infantry superior to that of the Ottomans, conceded that the Turkish Sipahi was the better cavalryman.

Source: Armies of the Ottoman Turks (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0850455111/qid=1060122654/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/102-8909823-6115313?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

I only have this one handy at the moment. Will post more recommended reading time permitting. For those in London I recommend a visit to the Tower Armories, there is Turkish armor on display there.

AFAIK the Mamlukes were used by the Ottomans as well, once they were suppressed. They were then incorporated into the standing Ottoman army. The Napoleonic French later incorporated the Mamluks into their armies. The Mamluks like almost all Muslim units in this game reflect general preconceptions.

[Leet Eriksson]

The mamelukes are horribly underpowered,so are the Faris.

btw sinan the Men at Arms series is a very reliable book at explaining the Islamic armies.