Two questions...

[DrHaphazard]

Hey my subtopic rhymes

In any case heres my question. I've finally made it to 1321 in my English game, but too bad the worlds basically conquered and the only thing left is the Egyptians and their burning desert.

So i've had control of Switzerland for a while and have made all the necessary arrangments for Swiss Armored Pikemen, however Switzerland gives a +1 valour to ordinary Swiss Pikemen. So which is more effective? SAP or SP?

Also i control Toulouse which gives +1 valor to Chivalric Knights. I've also made the Master Horse Breeder which gives (i thought) +1 valor to mounted units. So how come the Chivalric knights i make in Toulouse only have 1 valor? I think i also tried making Fuedal knights with the master horse breeder and found that they didn't get the +1 valor either. What gives? A bug? Or did CA intentionally do this to keep the CK from getting to strong right off the bat?

[Leet Eriksson]

SAPs are almost invincble against anything thats close to them,thanks to the 3 ranks bonus.SP are not as good as SAPs but still capable at handling cavalry.

[Rowan11088]

Not sure about that valor thing, master horse breeders seem to work for me...you sure the province gives +1 valor to chiv knights, and not chiv foot knights? (I don't remember myself). I guess it's possible also that those more special units get their valor boost from another building...could be master spearmaker, cuz of their lances, or the highest level of baronial buildings...i really have no idea though, it should still be master horse breeder.

[A.Saturnus]

I think you must have the highest version of the court too, to get a valour-bonus for knights. That means a baronial court (or is it estates?). So, if you`re not German or Italian, you don`t get it.

[Maelstrom]

For +2 Chiv Knights in Toulouse you need a Master Armourer, Master Horse Breeder and Baronial...(noot sure whether it is the court or estate - the maxed out one anyway).

[jLan]

Estate

[Odyssey of War]

Swiss Armored Pikeman are always better than Swiss Pikemen with higher Valor, except when fighting in the desert. I would advise using just Swiss pikemen in the desert due to less armor and still pretty strong.

Some provinces have bonuses for foot knights, note that this is NOT the same as knights, knights get the bonus when they dismount before a battle, hence becoming foot knights.

[ichi]

The description for the province of Toulouse says that the +1 valor bonus is for Chiv Knights.

I have found other province bonuses that do not work (e.g., Castile and Inquisitors)

ichi

[Brutal DLX]

About Pikemen, SAP are generally all purpose troops, whereas pikes and swiss pikes are more used against cavalry.
However, since you are almost done with your campaign and plan to fight in the desert, I'd take neither of them with me. Take urban militia, build basic spears in your bridgehead province and use a lot of archers (no arbs) and fast light cavalry. Together with a good general and in sufficient quantity, victory should be assured.

[DrHaphazard]

Urban militia eh? Those guys enjoy routing on me. Tis a shame i finally get SAP and only have about 4 non-desert provinces that are left to fight in. Of course theres still the danes, and they got a boatload of people left. I'll have a good row with them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Can the english build any type of horse archer? Seems to me i got turcoman's from around the black sea. Maybe i should get some of those, use the Egyptians own tactic against them.

[MizuKokami]

welllll, if you really wanna try out your new found pike buddies, you could allways incite a couple of rebellions in your lands. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[gunslinger]

deleted

[Heidrek]

I noticed something similar, I had a master horse breeder that gave mounted units +1 valour. worked fine when I build mounted sergeants and Feudal knights, but when I made Royal Knights they didn't get the valour bonus.

I'm guessing that this is because they are technically not built by the stables, but instead by the Court building, you just need the stables buildings to make them as a pre req.

[Roark]

Can the english build any type of horse archer?

There are no mounted missiles for the English except for Turcopoles from Outremer and (maybe) Steppe Heavies from, well... the steppes. Not sure about the latter.

[Martok]

I noticed something similar, I had a master horse breeder that gave mounted units +1 valour. worked fine when I build mounted sergeants and Feudal knights, but when I made Royal Knights they didn't get the valour bonus.

I'm guessing that this is because they are technically not built by the stables, but instead by the Court building, you just need the stables buildings to make them as a pre req.
Correct. :yes:

[Ironside]

I noticed something similar, I had a master horse breeder that gave mounted units +1 valour. worked fine when I build mounted sergeants and Feudal knights, but when I made Royal Knights they didn't get the valour bonus.

I'm guessing that this is because they are technically not built by the stables, but instead by the Court building, you just need the stables buildings to make them as a pre req.

And that court building will never give extra valour, even on highest level.

[Heidrek]

so it's not possible to get valour +1 Chiv. Knights? Come to think of it, even the Feudal Knights might not have been +1 Val. can't remember now.

i think I'm going to go and bribe some Golden horde and Egyptian units to round out my army. good mounted archers would be a big advantage, as would english longbows, but I think the English have already been killed off.

[Peasant Phill]

You can get v.1 CK's from toulouse (regional bonus) I think.

[caravel]

Tolouse gives the Chivalric Knight provincial +1 valour bonus. Ile de France gives the Chivalric Foot Knight bonus, which is entirely useless in vanilla. Originally the developers intended it that foot knights should be trainable but then the plan was changed and they were made into dismount units.

As the AI cannot dismount it's units, you as the player will be the only one to field foot knights by dismouting them.

There is also in effect no bonus from the royal court line of buildings as only the HRE can build the highest level building anyway. IIRC correctly that does give a valour bonus though.

[Heidrek]

It'd be good to know which units count as "Cavalry" units or "Archer" units in terms of building Valour bonuses. What are Horse Archers? Do they get +2 Val if you have the master horse breeder and and master archers building?

How about Vikings? Can they get a val. bonus from master swordsmith even though they don't need a swordsmith to be built? Valour +2 Vikings from Norway would be superb. I think they'd pretty much be all I'd use for infantry.

and yeah, what's the deal with Foot knights. I noticed provinces giving these units a Val. bonus, but as you can't build them as such how do you get this bonus? If you build the normal mounted version, does it get a Val. bonus if they dismount? I have Gold Edition, but can't build any kind of foot knights which is a pain. I'd actaully really like to be able to build them as 60 man base units. Kind of elite heavy infantry.

[seireikhaan]

@Heidrick:

1) Horse Archers gain valor from horse breeder buildings. All cavalry, with the exception of knights/ghulam bg, gain extra valor from master horse breeders. No combinations of buildings gives more than +1 valor, regardless of the unit. Also, units which require a a master horse breeder(Khwarzmian cavalry come to mind) do not get the extra valor bonus. This works in the same way for other 'master' buildings.

2) To my knowledge, there is no way to train vikings with +1 valor. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Consider it a gift that you don't need anything more than a fort to train them.:yes:

3) Foot knights are untrainable in vanilla VI. However, it is possible to mod them in yourself as a trainable unit. If you use gnome editor, you can simply change who can train them, and their building requirements, so that they can be trained. I believe that they do exist in the files, you just have to enable certain factions to train them, and give them proper requirements. However, unless you mod the unit size(which I personally wouldn't), they still come in units of 40, like their mounted counterparts. Or you could simply get a mod in which the foot knights are trainable. I know they are in XL, but I'm not for sure on the other mods. Personally, I dislike fuedal foot knights, as they aren't really spectacular, particularly on defense, and have a tendency to get mugged by numbers. Chivalric foot knights are indeed a beastly unit, though. Very, very tough, units, which act much like uber powered halberdiers, with much, much more morale.

[Heidrek]

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking of training 2-3 units of Chiv. Knights with a good commander and leave them in my Denmark Fortress by themselves, just to encourage someone to try and take it. I'll just move them to the innermost gate house, dismount them and set them up to butcher whatever tries to get through. I'd really love to see how many enemy soldiers they, and the forifications take out.

[CrazyGuy]

On vanilla doesn't Norway give Vikings with +1 valour?

[caravel]

On vanilla doesn't Norway give Vikings with +1 valour?
:yes:

[sharpshooter]

At the risk of repeating what's been already said I'll do a summary on the questions - hopefully this will of help. The 2 questions seem to have grown to several in that forum way, so there's a few points covered.

All answers are for MTW VI Vanilla - mods can vary all of these.

1. Bonuses for Knights
Knights - Royal, Feudal, Chivalric or Gothic, do not get bonuses from building, as Ironside noted. The Ghulam Bodyguards and Sipahis of the Porte of the Islamic factions do not get bonuses from building.

Bonuses are from the regions only:
- Toulouse gives a +1 to CK's,
- Ile de France gives +1 to the dismounted CK's, or CFKs.
- Saxony gives a +1 to Gothic Knights
- Brandenburg gives a +1 to dismounted GKs.

There are no regional bonuses for the equivalent Islamic units.

2. Gothic Knights
The Baronial Estate, top of the courts buildings, can only be built by the HRE and Italy. It is necessary for Gothic troops which are only available to them in Late, and does not give a bonus to any unit.

Regional bonuses for Gothic Knights, as mentioned, are available to both the HRE and Italy in Saxony and Brandenburg.

3. Dismounting Knights
On MTW VI Vanilla only the Player can dismount knights before battle. This is done on the battle screen while deploying. Once the battles starts the knights can't be dismounted.

CKs trained in Ile de France should have no valour bonus while mounted, but be +1 when dismounted as CFKs. Similarly, GKs trained in Brandenburg should not get the +1 bonus when mounted, but gain it when dismounted.

Conversely, the mounted CKs from Toulouse should lose their +1 bonus when dismounted, and ditto the GKs from Saxony. I must admit I haven't checked this.

4. Bonuses for Cavalry Units
All other cavalry units get a +1 from the Master Horse Breeder unless the MHB is a condition of training them, e.g. Khwarazmian Cav and Lancers do not get a +1 from the MHB.

Cavalry units will get +2 if there is a regional bonus, i.e. Armenian HC get +2 in Armenia with an MHB, Turcopoles get +2 in Antioch with an MHB.

Special units similar to Knights, e.g. Polish Retainers, Avar Nobles, and Boyars, do get a +1 from the MHB.

All mounted missile units are treated as cavalry, and get their +1 valour bonus from an MHB.

As Kamikhaan stated, no 2 Master building types can be combined to give more than a +1 valour bonus. +2 is only available from a Master building, and a regional bonus, e.g. Longbowmen will get +2 valour in Wales with a Master Bowyer.

5. Mounted Archer units for the English
The only trainable mounted missile units available to the English (and all catholic factions get them) are:
- Turcopoles from Antioch, Tripoli and Edessa (Bows)
- Steppe Heavy Cavalry available in the southern and western steppes (Bows)
- Spanish Jinetes available in all the Iberian provinces (Javelins)

The Turcopoles are Fast, and should be trained in Antioch as there is a +1 regional valour bonus, going to +2 with an MHB. They are ideal in the desert, but are fine if transported to Europe - though their arrows don't do too much damage to High and Late armoured infantry. They are light - not good for melee.

The SHC don't get a regional bonus, but are a good all round unit, suitable for melee as well as archery. They do get +1 from the MHB. Highly recommended.

The Jinetes are Fast, but there is no regional bonus. They are a good light cavalry, and suitable for pursuing routers, and melee with archers and skirmishers, with other light/medium cavalry if they have a valour bonus and been armoured up. They are not suitable for heavy infantry or heavy cavalry. Using their javelins can take a bit of getting used to, as they need to be very close to their targets, but they are effective against armour.

Otherwise, untrainable units are available as Mercenaries, through bribing, or get picked up on crusades. These cannot be retrained. There is a range of these, of which Horse Archers and Mounted Crossbowmen come up most often as mercenaries.

6. Bonuses for Vikings
Vikings get a +1 bonus in Norway.

No other Viking units get a regional bonus, e.g. Huscarles, Carls, Landsmen.

These other Viking units do get a bonus for a Master building, e.g. a Master Swordsmith will give a +1 bonus to Viking Huscarles, an MHB will give a +1 to Viking Raider Cavalry.

Vikings, as a Fort based unit, do not get an extra bonus from a Master building.

7. Bonuses for Fort Units are Regional only
Units that have a Fort as a condition, e.g. Scottish Clansmen, Vikings, Camel Warriors, Slav Warriors etc. can only get a regional bonus, not a building based bonus. The regional bonus must be available.

Upgrading to a Citadel does not give a bonus.

Upgrading to the appropriate building type does not give a bonus, i.e. Scottish Clansmen will not get an extra +1 from a Master Swordsmith, Slav Warriors will not get a +1 for a Master Spearmaker, Camel Warriors will not get a +1 from an MHB.

I've often wondered why a regional bonus is given if the unit is only available in one place, e.g. Scottish Clansman have a +1 bonus from Scotland, but aren't available anywhere else.

***********************************************

@ Heidrek

I suspect that 3 CKs and an RK general will put anyone off from attacking Denmark. You may wait a long time.

Besides, other factions very rarely attack the Danes in Denmark - I might have seen the HRE do it once, but I'm not certain. I suspect that players should follow suit, and leave Denmark alone.

First, the Danes very rarely attack other factions, but in High may do so if someone has taken Sweden. Otherwise they may pounce on a rebel Friesland, Pomerania, or Saxony. This is probably because they run out of money with all those princes to maintain, but it also seems attitudinal.

Usually a single unit to garrison Sweden is enough, if you keep an emissary in Denmark, or ally with them. Of course, that emissary is vulnerable, as Denmark doesn't build Border Forts, and you may need to replace him from time to time.

Secondly, for periods of time a neutral or allied Denmark may be the only northern port you can trade with, especially late in the game.

Thirdly, Denmark is one of the main sources of princesses for your heirs.

Players are often tempted by the command star in the regional title of Denmark, and the desire to make their map look neat. IMHO this should be resisted, and the Danes should be allowed to live - until, perhaps, you are down to the final 4 or 5 regions to conquer in total domination.

Once Denmark is in player hands it's still rarely attacked - though the HRE may do so, and if the Danes are in Sweden, and you have taken Denmark they will try to get it back at the first opportunity. It's possible the English might fleet in an attack.

***************************************************

The Chivalric Foot Knights are, however, a great unit and I do recommend trying them out. Their disadvantage is that they are Slow - slower than Halberdiers, and on offense I make them run to the contact. Better to arrive a bit tired than not to get into the fight at all.

I believe only JHI are better on attack in High, but they are not as well armoured. In Late the JHI are equalled by Gothic Foot Knights on attack, but the GFK have better armour again than the CFKs. GFKs are as slow as CFKs - while JHI are fast, have 60 men base as opposed to 40, and are a wonderful attacking machine.

If you do get to run your scenario of defending a castle with CFKs (maybe in another province) I predict that nothing will get past them. Give us a battle description if you get to do it - I for one would like to hear about it.

[Peasant Phill]

...
1. Bonuses for Knights
Knights - Royal, Feudal, Chivalric or Gothic, do not get bonuses from building, as Ironside noted. The Ghulam Bodyguards and Sipahis of the Porte of the Islamic factions do not get bonuses from building.

Bonuses are from the regions only:
- Toulouse gives a +1 to CK's,
- Ile de France gives +1 to the dismounted CK's, or CFKs.
- Saxony gives a +1 to Gothic Knights
- Brandenburg gives a +1 to dismounted GKs.

There are no regional bonuses for the equivalent Islamic units.

...

3. Dismounting Knights
On MTW VI Vanilla only the Player can dismount knights before battle. This is done on the battle screen while deploying. Once the battles starts the knights can't be dismounted.

CKs trained in Ile de France should have no valour bonus while mounted, but be +1 when dismounted as CFKs. Similarly, GKs trained in Brandenburg should not get the +1 bonus when mounted, but gain it when dismounted.

Conversely, the mounted CKs from Toulouse should lose their +1 bonus when dismounted, and ditto the GKs from Saxony. I must admit I haven't checked this.
...


Wow, you really tried to cover everything in this post. :thumbsup:

Some minor remarks on your post:

1. You say there are no regional bonuses for the Islamic equivalents for knights. Well there aren't really Islamic equivalents so your point is moot. However, there are some Islamic heavy cav that can compete with knights
that get a regional bonus. A v2 AHC (master horsebreeder in Armenia) for example is even better than a v0 CK.

2. CKs build in Ile de France won't get an extra valour point when they dismount, neither do CKs from Toulouse lose theirs. The bonus in Ile the France is just an abandoned idea from the developers that didn't get removed in the final version. There are more of those around.

3. You say that you shouldn't match Jinettes with armoured units. I say that they are mend for just that. Jinettes are together with mounted Xbows the only AP horsearchers in the game. Add to that their small amount of missiles (4 per person). It would be a shame to waste those missiles on soft targets unless there are to few armoured soldiers left.
Even when they get caught, they'll last long enough for you to send help as they can fight quite well in comparison with most HA's.

[sharpshooter]

Points taken Phill, and thanks for the reply.

1. By Islamic equivalents to knights I meant the Ghulam Bodyguards and Sipahis of the Porte that princes and sultans get.

The AHC, as you say, are an excellent heavy cavalry unit - simply the bomb - and better than CK0. (Oops, are you now gonna look at my battle description in the Fav Units thread and think the match of Turk vs French too unbalanced?)

2. So no valour bonuses for dismounted CK's from Ile de France? Thanks for the info - as I had to admit, I hadn't checked that, so used "should".

I assume the same is true for the dismounted GK's from Brandenburg.

I did go through a phase of using CKs dismounted, and did use them on BKB's mod, where they are trainable as foot knights, and do get the regional bonus, but that was some time ago now. I ended up finding their slowness a fiddle, and not suited to my style.

Can you recall any other instances of developer's ideas left in text, but not implemented? That might solve a few niggles for me.

3. My lack of clarity - with Jinetes I meant that they are not suitable to melee with catholic heavy infantry or heavy cavalry. As you say, they can hang in there if they have a bit of armour, and can certainly be used to pursue routers of these kinds.

I absolutely agree that their javelins should be used against armoured targets, and are wasted on soft ones. With missiles they can take on catholic heavy cavalry - RKs and CK's - and will run them ragged if pursued.

Using them as the missile troops they are is generally a bit more difficult than using Horse Archers/Mounted XBows for people new to the game due to the javelin's short range.