I thought this wasn' 'sposed to happen anymore?

[Al Qasim Hussein]

Ok, started a new campaign for the ALmohads. I was cruising along nicely for the first few years, and decided that it was high time to eradicate some Egyptian competition for my North African holdings. I scanned the stacks of troops I would potentially be facing and they were inexplicably FILLED with crossbowmen. We're talking about crossbowmen in 1105 here This hasn't happened since pre-patch (and I dont have VI) days to me, I swear I did just install MedMod, but what gives?

And apologies if there's an answer somewhere I couldn't find. I haven't been to the boards in a while

[Red Harvest]

I think they get them as mercs. The AI is nuts about crossbowmen. I find crossbows worthless (except mounted, which are quite handy.) They are lucky to get off a single volley at an attacker and they get killed in melee.

[Al Qasim Hussein]

I understand that they can hire them as mercs...AFTER 1205 What gives? I'm just at a total loss to explain why all of a sudden these troop types are back in the early era on my game.

You are correct on fighting crossbowmen, however. They reload slowly when the computer uses them, and as a result I bash them to bits w/ my light cavalry.

I guess my real concern is, will I be facing chivalric units all of a sudden? Why are high era units in the early era on my game

[Oaty]

The deal is its either a glitch in the game where they still can hire them as mercenaries or go bribe some rebels for the crossbowmen. You just cant train them before 1205.

My only guess is there may be a little historical accuracy here but its only a guess. Crossbows became popular in 1205, so when were they really invented. Heres the way to look at it. Before crossbows became popular someone had to use them in battle before their popularity in 1205. They were probably used in battle by a general before 1205 and some king or general noticed their devastation done on there army spite the long reload time. My only guess is that they were ignored for quite a while because many thought they would not be ineffective due to there reload time. It would have to be noticed by someone that you can take a peasant give him about 2 weeks of training and give him something much more powerful than a bow, vice training an archer for many years. So being able to hire them as mercanaries may be possible since they could have been around long before 1205 just not in mass wich the game represents by not allowing you to train them on your own only by luck at an inn

[Oaty]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/beyond/factsheets/makhist/makhist5_prog5a.shtml

Just did a web search and the first page popped up with the answer. Didnt look for much detail but crossbows have been around in Roman times, they were just about completely ignored til 1205 due to regular bows being much more effective til armour made them redundant, resulting to the rise of crossbows.

So having them scarcely available as mercanaries or finding rebels arming them makes it historically accurate

[solypsist]

you didn't mention if you have the Vikings expansion installed.

if you don't, then there's your problem. the expansion upgrades to a higher version.

if you do, then it's probably a result of rebellions. I've noticed they still ( albeit rarely) appear with mismatched and sometimes unavailable units. anyway, the province rebelled, then went back to being loyal, so you've now got a stack of Egyptian crossbows. rebels even start off with unavailable units in the campaign.

[Mount Suribachi]

Wales starts out in Early with 3 or 4 longbowmen - bribing them is the only way to get l'bows before 1205. Clearly the era rules aren't so strictly applied to the AI.

[Nowake]

Corection: the crosbow wasn't invented in 1205, after that date it started to be used in Europe.

[Al Qasim Hussein]

I did too mention that I don't have Viking INvasion (see first post&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif But all that aside, I like the outlook some of you have provided. It makes sense that crossbows might have been around for many years before armor improvements elevated their worth in battle. I'll just look at it that way...but so help me god, if chivalric or gothic units start showing up there'll be a JIHAD of unheralded proportions, that I VOW

[Odyssey of War]

The crossbow was actually invented by the Chinese around 500 to 350 BC or so, actual dates vary but they all tend to be around then. By 209 BC, the Chinese army had around 50,000 crossbowmen. They are actually brought up in The Art of War by Sun Tzu, which dates from at least 345 BC.

Crossbows were known to the ancient greeks and romans and were commonly used by the peoples of Central Asia, such as the Scythians, Turks, and Mongols.

The crossbow reappeared in Europe in the 11th Century and was very popular in Italy. By the time of the first crusades, crossbows were in pretty widespread use in armies across Europe, particularly in the south.

William the Conqueror brought skilled crossbowmen with him when he invaded England in 1066.

Crossbows were outlawed for use among Christians, as it was labeled a barbarous invention, by the Lateran Council of 1139. This condemnation was ignored by most commanders because of the crossbows usefulness and in 1200 the church relaxed its decree, allowing its use against infidels, pagans, and in the case of a just war.