Egyptian Chariot Archers

[Kongamato]

http://www.totalwar.com/community/images/egchar.jpg

Egyptian Chariot Archers
Chariots Archers are tough marksmen with good morale, their skills honed by years of practice as tribal hunters and in the military. The Chariot itself is controlled by a driver, leaving the archer to concentrate on firing as many arrows as possible at the enemy from his composite bow, a weapon ideally suited to dry, desert conditions. Chariot Archers carry a large number of arrows with them in each chariot, and are adept at firing them while at the gallop. They do not wear armour and only carry a knife apart from their bows. They are superb for scouting in force, harrassing an approaching enemy, and wearing down large infantry formations. They are also best used in flat, open country such as the desert.

[Monk]

ack, beat me to the punch again Kongamato http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Stormer]

They sound pretty cool but i wish they do smething like war elephants or wolfs or the flamming piggy

[Catiline]

Well these look pretty historical, give or take about 1500 years...

[Kongamato]

I wonder what kind of animations these chariots are going to go through when they are destroyed while moving, especially when there is a cliff nearby.

[Knight_Yellow]

thats wierd

i cant picture a horse falling


i mean what would it be like?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[Stormer]

Quote[/b] ]thats wierd

i cant picture a horse falling


i mean what would it be like??

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

u dont have a vivid mind do you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[CBR]

Hm whats next... Hittites? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

CBR

[Kraxis]

Despite their obvious outdatedness (I invented a word, yey), I believe they will be a really fun unit. They can certainly fire on the move and they have a lot of ammo. They can become the ultimate harasser firing forever and never getting caught.

They also gives a little weight to the idea that the Eastern Horse Archers can fire on the move as well as the British Light Chariot.

But I wonder, they talk about a driver and ONE archer, yet we see two archers in the pic. Now it would be real nice if there were two archers making them quite different from horse archers.

[Hakonarson]

What a crock of dung http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

When they existed (which is well before RTW as others have pointed out....) Egyptian chariot archers were heavily armoured, carried javelins as well as bows and chariots with 2 archers were almost certainly drawn by 4 horses.

they weren't harassers - they were battle-winners, inflicting massive casualties from concentrated powerful archery - read an account of the battle of Qadesh some time.

This is the pits from CA - an anachronistic unit that's also simply historical rubbish.

[Spino]

Oh dear, what do I think of when I see a unit like this?

Ramses: So it is written... so it shall be done" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Commander of the Host: Let us go from this place, men cannot fight against a God.
Rameses: Better to die in battle with a God than to live in shame. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Dathan: Moses has words. Pharaoh has spears http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/argue.gif

Rameses: His God... *is* God http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Little Boy: The wind opens the sea.
Old Blind Man: God opens the sea with a blast of his nostrils. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

Midianite girl: I wish every day was shearing day" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shock.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[DrHaphazard]

Spino I have no idea what you are talkin about.

Furthermore chariots are harrasing units. Chariots cannot make a charge into a group of soliders like knights can. They are also (the Egyptain version anyways) relatively slow moving and would be forced to ride alongside enemy formations, peppering them with arrows.

They can be "battle-winners" in a sense that they cause morale and formation problems, allowing the infantry to have an easier time of the killing.

Yeah i hope theres two archers too to give some uniqueness. I'm kinda disappointed by the Egytianess being overstated however.

[Kraxis]

I must say I agree that I'm a little saddened by all the Egyptian units. We have at least three destinctly Egyptian units. The Archers, the Chariots and those spearmen in one of the pics. They all look Pharaonic... I wouldn't mind if the archers and the chariots are in, just for being interesting unique units, despite not fitting the timeperiod. But when a unit that seem like a very lowtech almost generic unit has Pharaonic clothes on then it would seem to indicate the entire Egyptian army will look like that. And that is too much for me.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Well, I guess CA did not want yet another sub greek faction.And voila, we end up with ahistorical egyptian...

OTOH, I can't wait to swipe with chariot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Louis the Simurgh,

[Shahed]

NO COMMENT .

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flirt.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 14 2003,19:11)]OTOH, I can't wait to swipe with chariot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Hmm dont you mean "I can't wait to buy loads of upgrades for my archers" ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

CBR

[Hakonarson]

Quote[/b] (DrHaphazard @ Aug. 13 2003,20:25)]Furthermore chariots are harrasing units. Chariots cannot make a charge into a group of soliders like knights can. They are also (the Egyptain version anyways) relatively slow moving and would be forced to ride alongside enemy formations, peppering them with arrows.

They can be "battle-winners" in a sense that they cause morale and formation problems, allowing the infantry to have an easier time of the killing.
Where did you get all that from?

In Pharonic times 2-man chariotsd weer extremely manouvreable and nimble - they weer extremely light and had excellent power-to weight ratio. Such chariots weer definitely too light to charge into any troops of course.

But there were much heavier 3- and 4-horse chariots with larger crews, armoured horses and in some cases weapons that could only be used for close combat such as spears and, in China, halberds.

Given that most foot in those days was NOT formed into close order spear walls, but were probably rather in loose formations with small shields (if any) and lacked armour or long spears there's no reason at all to presume that Chariots couldn't charge into them.

[Nelson]

Quote[/b] (Catiline @ Aug. 13 2003,12:35)]Well these look pretty historical, give or take about 1500 years...
Ain't it the truth...

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Aug. 14 2003,13:47)]
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 14 2003,19:11)]OTOH, I can't wait to swipe with chariot http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Hmm dont you mean "I can't wait to buy loads of upgrades for my archers" ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

CBR
Those are chariot archer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ...

Louis the Simurgh,

[CBR]

Gah I can just see how my swiping elephants are wiped out by your chariots http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

CBR

[Hakonarson]

Yeah? What're you going to do if he's got BBQ pigs with his chariots to scare of your sissy elephants huh? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[CBR]

Yes in theory it sounds really bad... but Louis can only control one unit type at a time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

CBR

[DrHaphazard]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Aug. 14 2003,16:46)]
Where did you get all that from?
Sorry, i should have specified that i was speaking about Egyptian chariots specifically, not chariots in the broader sense.

In any case my info comes the Military Heritage magazine, and the specific article was actually an editorial reply written in refutation of an earlier article about the use of the chariot in Egypt.

Unfortunately the MH website doesn't have this particular article on there (figured it wouldnt) but I will endeavour to find the original in my stack of magazines. Certainly i could recall the details incorrectly, but i remember the author making a pretty compelling case.

Hopefully i can find the article and write down some of his main points.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ Aug. 14 2003,23:49)]Yes in theory it sounds really bad... but Louis can only control one unit type at a time http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

CBR
Not even that... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Louis,

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

Well Chariots look nice, but is any news about Cav Archers Shooting when moving???

[jLan]

Go read the Eastern/Parthian Horse Archer info..

[CeltiberoSkullXIII]

where? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

[CBR]

http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=19;t=9927

or

http://www.totalwar.com/community/unit1.htm


CBR

[DthB4Dishonor]

I'm a little late on this topic but from what I read chariots I have to agree with Hakonarson they were a knock out punch unit. They did also have javelins which they threw at closer range. If what I read is correct they were also used as harrasing a bit but also came in for that final punch.

They often used an extra horse that was tied to the main horses but not to the super structure of the chariot. As they would move towards the enemy firing they would then turn either left or right in order to make another pass. During these passes the chariots were extremely vulnerable to enemy fire at there broad side. This extra horse was there as a possible buffer to protect the harnessed horses. If the extra horse was seriously wounded and hampering the manueverability of the others they just cut it loose.

Now what people are not talking about is how unpractical chariots are when not in flat steppes and plains. This is what slowly phased out the chariots from battlefields. IMHO chariots will be a very specific unit just like camels which are now used only in arid or desert when you know or assume that enemy is gonna take alot of heavy cav. Chariots will be used to do a specific job on specific regions or maps otherwise they would not be a practical or efficient unit.

[Hakonarson]

Did you watch the Discovery channel programem on Assyrian Chariots recently?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif

One of het technical advisors, Nigel Tallis, is on a couple of wargaming/history discussion groups that have talked a lot about this - especuially the idea that the "spare" horses might've been soem sort of "ablative armour" rather than being yoked - the 2 lists I'm on are the DBM list and Ancmed on yahoogroups - you could search the archives for more info there if yo'er interested.

Nigel also wrote a work "Armies of the anceint Near East", which I think covers 3000BC to about 600 BC and is well worth getting.

[Kraxis]

A horse as armour? Isn't that a little expensive and rather bad at the same time? A horse was very expensive and it might only take a few hits before dying or becoming encumbered. A lousy armour in my oppinion.

[Kongamato]

I dont really understand using a chariot as a charging shock weapon. Knights had swords and lances to hit the men in front of them, but a chariot? I dont think they had a weapon that could reach that far. The horses themselves would have to be used as the weapon, and I dont see any effectiveness in that. Maybe well-trained horses could use themeselves as infantry battering rams, but would that be worth it?

[DthB4Dishonor]

Actually no I didnt see the special on the History Channel. Although I do really like the history channel. I remember being interested a while back on Chariots. When I got STW I was inspired to read Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" Around the time of Sun Tzu the Chinese armies were chariot heavy and spurred me to read up on chariot's a little more. While looking reading up I found stuff on a few different cultures which utilized chariots including Egypt. Like I said I read this stuff from books and a couple of sites on net but dont remember it exactly since it was more than a year ago. Als

[Hakonarson]

Kongamato in a charge, in most cases, the horse itself is the weapon - it knocks men over and tramples them - even if it falls it can do damage. Adn being largeg and fast it imposes a considerable morale penalty on men on fot - see if yuo can stand in front of a charging horse :o

The rider is here primarily to ensure the horse does what it's supposed to.

Lances certainly add to the general mayhem but are not necessary for a successful cavalry charge against infantry, and are primarily useful vs other cavalry, which the horse is less effective against.

Indeed Byzantine Kataphractoi carried maces with which to break infantry weapons.

[Kongamato]

I wondered whether a chariot really could make a sufficient charge attack with horses alone. It would take some considerable training, and could also make the chariot exceedingly vulnerable to spearwalls.

[Hakonarson]

the point is that there was little solid infantry at the time of the heyday of the chariot - and such as there was was usually on the same side as the chariot - notably Assyrians.

So there's few spearwalls to worry about.

Even if there was, chariots might still be able to operate in a similar manner to later cavalry that did enconuter spear walls - using missiles to creat disorder and charging in to complete the rout, then pursuing the fleeing foe, or preventing opposing infantry from doing the same.

[Sir Robin]

Okay, now I am getting confused.

Were not the Ptolemaic armies based on the Macedonian Phalanx model?

There was probably some cultural and militaristic mixing, but I thought the Macedonian/Greek tactics and weaponry was dominant.

Or is this really a gameplay factor? Are they Pharonic armies being brought forward in time with local tactics and weapons resurrected?

Maybe this is an adaption of Macedonian organization to a hotter african climate?

If the phalanx/spearmen are the core of amratian/ptolemaic/egyptian armies in RTW then I could see a place for chariots as a flanking harrasment force.

[Hakonarson]

Yes Ptolemaic armies were based on hte Macedonian model, with phalaxes and peltasts, and even egyptian pikmen (as opposed to "Greek" mercenaries and settlers/colonists.

the chariots simply didn't exist then