Germanic's Symbol...

[Stefan the Berserker]

http://kgfs.org.uk/images/map2.jpg

Following this Screenshot the Germanics have the same Nation Color as Hungary in MTW (never mind, even if I preffered Black like Germans in MTW), BUT the Symbol of the Golden Horde

As a Guy who likes the Germanic Culture very much, I can say this Dragon doesn't fit as a Symbol So, it isn't much work so please change that.

I posted some alternatives to help you, by also including the Option for Community mbers what they think which Symbol was the most fitting one...

http://www.ratatoskr.de/121401.jpg

Alternative 2:
http://www.ratatoskr.de/121412.jpg

Alternative 3:
http://www.home.zonnet.nl/Germanen-Glaube/Wodan.jpg

I hope you understand my request, it was simply enough to make a new Symbol for then instead of Simply useing the Golden Horde Symbol too

[Brother Derfel]

Arn't all those alternatives more nordic than germanic?

[DrHaphazard]

Hah, i was wondering what those pink flags were, nice eye Stefan. Yeah i didn't think dragons were associated with Germans, but now that i think about it i don't know what symbol was.

The Raven was a nordic symbol and i'm not sure that applies to the German tribes.

Well my initial search has come to naught. Maybe i'll try and look again later, but all i know is that the best flag to date is in the second picture on this page...

Gamestar.de review (http://www.gamestar.de/magazin/previews/strategie/13394/)

[Shahed]

What was the actual battle standard/s of Germanics in those days ?

[ShadesWolf]

Stefan the Berserker just a comment, we dont know how old these pictures are.

I seem to rememeber that the first pictures I saw of MTW have Japanese faction symbols. This might be the same concept using stuff they already have to get the game working before they add the proper stuff

HOPEFULLY http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

[Sjakihata]

Thor's Hammer aka. Mjö(ø)lner

[JohnCee]

I'm not too sure if I'm remembering this right but isn't there plenty of Germanic folklore involving dragons (I think I remember something from the Sigfried myth)?

Mind you that particular image does look fairly Eastern/Oriental. Just to throw up another option I think I read somewhere that some of the tribes in that part of the world would use was basically the severed head of a wolf on a spear (but I can't remember where I read that so it may be from a dodgy source).

[Spino]

Shadeswolf nailed it on the head. Unless you're overlooking some symbol of a great 'wyrm' that was used by Germanic tribes of the period then that flag is probably using a 'placeholder' graphic from MTW (that symbol is definitely ripped from the Mongol flags in MTW). With RTW 8-12 months away I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

FYI, 'placeholders' are typically simple or reused graphics, sound and other items that developers use until all art, media, etc. is finalized.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]What was the actual battle standard/s of Germanics in those days ?

Normally Germanics simply draw Runes on Flags and used them as Unit standards. Oftenly the Algiz-Rune which stands for "beeing ready to defend", it's even famous today through the Hippies used it too. But they also liked spiked up Heads or God Figures as "insignia". But they never had symbols like roman "Signum".

I made now alternative 4, which is quite easy to deploy (after I already made it)...

Alternative 4:
http://www.elbenwaldforum.de/userpics/up_0000004594.jpg

Simply white Algiz-Rune on Black Ground, then A and W-Runes put next to it (representing Asen and Wanen, the two God's Clans).

[Hakonarson]

Norse runes are post RTW by hundreds of years - they were developed from the Latin alphabet that filtered through Germany over the ages, and are not Germanic per se either

[Kraxis]

In the lack of better knowledge I will go for the Raven of the Vikings. Well not it really, but a raven/eagle.

The norse dragons nad most likely the Germanic dragons were not creatures as we think of them. They were more like monitors, you know like Komodo Dragons. They had no wings and a rather short neck.
But they were much later.

An animal would be fitting due to the more rugged life they were living. A boar would be nice, but I expect the Gauls to have it (can you say Asterix?).

[deejayvee]

Quote[/b] (Brother Derfel @ Aug. 14 2003,11:21)]Arn't all those alternatives more nordic than germanic?
Most Germanic people seemed to have come from the Nordic areas, and are probably the same people. For example, the Goths are from Gotland of the coast of Scandinavia. The Teutones and the Cimbrians who invaded Italy ~100BC previously owned modern day Denmark between them.

[Hurin_Rules]

Yep, the languages of the Scandinavian peoples are part of the Indo-European Group, and closely related to German, Dutch, English, etc. The Scandinavians (Norse, Swedes, Danes) are as much Germanic as the Germans are.

[jLan]

Yeah the Goths came from modern sweden. (Western part I believe...) Göteborg, Sweden's second largest city (?) is actually named after a gothic (Götic) castle/fortress.

[Leet Eriksson]

The dragon does not look like the one in MTW,but it is very similiar.

[AvramL]

Germanic standards of the time were probably similar to those carried by other northern European peoples. Let us not forget that cultural distictions were not black and white but rather blurred. The Germanics for one were somewhat influenced by the neighbouring Celts(among others). Thus their battle standards would not have been drastically different, usually they were simply the symbols of the powerful chieftains present, like a coat of arms. Harold Godwinson when facing the Normans and Norwegians in 1066 flew both the red dragon of Wessex (windsock of possibly Celtic origin) beside his own personal standard of "the fighting man". Popular symbols were animals, such as horses, boars, wolves etc. and also such sacred things as the Oak tree etc. One should not think of later Norse symbols as being the same as earlier pan Germanic ones, the Norse gods we are so familiar with existed only in the most rudimentary forms at this point. The main god worshipped by the Germans during their early history seems to have been Tiwaz the glorius father, who is associated with the forest and the oak tree. Later during the great migrations, Gods such as Woden, Thunor (Donner) etc. gained popularity and eclipsed some of the older, continental gods(Tiwaz became Tyr the god of war, being superceded by Woden). Ofcourse these are simply the most ubiqitius of the Germanic gods, each tribe (there were a great many of clan based tribes) seems to have had its own patron deities, the tribes of the NW (inclding the Anglo-Saxons) are said to have worshipped a unique earth goddess(among others, including a sword god), possibly named Aerce. While the Frankish tribes seem to have had a blacksmithing god named Welund.

Anyway, back to the point. The fact is, Germanic symbols on battle standards were not uniform, they could be ANYTHING though there seems to have been a bias toward animals and other things from the natural world, no doubt to a people who depended entirely on the land\sea and it's animal life to survive, symbols of such would carry great meaning and significance.

And just a side note here, I hope in RTW i don's see too many furs and painted bodies among the "barbarians" Germanics for instance wore mostly close fitting wool tunics and trousers with leather shoes (not too disimilar to moccassans) often a cloak as well. I'd also like to see appropriate hairstyles rendered as well. Based on the number of combs found in burials, it seems that the Germanics took very careful care of their hair and many tribes were know for their bizarre hairstyles, often done simply too scare the enemy (EX. the Swabian knot, that strange Frankish shaved/knotted hairstyle)
Finally, I would not like to see the "Barbarians" given a the advantage of "hords" of warriors. Considering the rural life of the northern Europeans, and the need for many men to stay home lest the crops be left unharvested etc. (most lived in villages of 100 people or less and there were no cites as such) they could not possibly have fielded as many men as Roman historians claim, in fact they were probably outnumbered in many battles by the Romans.

[Hakonarson]

Campaigns were usually carried out when the harvest was already gathered.

Although the Romans with a standing army of course tried to campaign at a time when the enemy men would have to leave their harvest in the ground - what's the choice - harvest and be killed village by village, or concentrate, fight, and starve for the next year?

Warfare is not nice

[Kraxis]

The Teutons and the Cimbri didn't come from the same areas. The Cimbri were being preassured by the Danes from the east and thus some of them began a migration to the south where they teamed up with Teutons and various other tribes. It would take another few hundred years before the Cimbri were fully overtaken by the Danes.
It should be noted that the Cimbri are believed to have been of Celtic origin. So in fact that invasion was a joined venture of Germanics and Celts. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

About the Goths, I too believed they came from Gotland, but that is a very small area and has never been heavily populated, thus it is unlikely they came from the island. Further I have heard people time and again claim they DIDN'T come from Gotland but from northeastern Poland. Of course they could have spread to Gotland and Sweden thus bringing the names with them.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Norse runes are post RTW by hundreds of years - they were developed from the Latin alphabet that filtered through Germany over the ages, and are not Germanic per se either

Perhaps thinking should be done before talking http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

They were NOT developed from the Latin Alphabet and are actually older than Rome byself.

When the Teutons and Cimbri left their Homes, they first went to the Balkan region where they meet the Thracians. Thracian Blacksmiths made Helmets and Armor for those of them who could afford to buy them, which were later found in northern Italy where Romans/Teutons/Cimbri fought. These were marked with Curses and names written in Rune script, the "Old Futhark".

"Old Futhark" was developed from Oracle Signs, which were used in the Uesetia Rite and connected to the Wotan Cult. Also other Metal works like Swords and Goldworks were marked with Runes, while the Artifacts which carry these Signs go even back to the year 1500 B.C.

All these was long before Imperium Romanum and Tribelands bordered each other.

The Viking Runes differ very much from "Old Futhark", indeed all Scandinavian Nations have their own private version of it.

I guess you have not read somthing about Germanics, just read what Roman Sight of them was and thats it. Simply compare: Imagine Historicans in 2000 years only had Al Jaseera reportages about Iraqwar, do you think they would have "fair" and fully correct source then?

Romans saw them Selves as the Nation of Worlddomination "Domini cuncti universo" and this way never reported neutral about "Barbarians".


Zitat[/b] ]About the Goths, I too believed they came from Gotland, but that is a very small area and has never been heavily populated, thus it is unlikely they came from the island. Further I have heard people time and again claim they DIDN'T come from Gotland but from northeastern Poland. Of course they could have spread to Gotland and Sweden thus bringing the names with them.

Goths came from Gotland and migrated to Poland (Pommerania and Prussia) when the conditions in this region became average they went south to "Omojan" (Hungary and todays romania.

[AvramL]

All Germanics are thought to have originated in Scandinavia, and then slowly spread on the continent, ofcourse how much mixing of cultures that took place is impossible to say, but there must have been a good deal.

I was under the impression that the Cimbri were a Germanic tribe (there was a third, Celtic tribe that did join that migration though), the Romans seemed to have placed them in modern Denmark, firmly within the Germanic world, and their name might be a latin corruption of a Germanic word (Caemper like the modern Kaempfer)

The Danes didn't arrive in Denmark in great force until around the 5th century AD, perhaps propelling the Angles into Britain.

Also, it has been suggested (though impossible to prove) that the developement of the Runic alphabet etc. among the northern europeans might have been the result of contact with the mediterreneans.The Roman empire etc. may not have borded the Germanics at this point, but trade etc. still reached far and wide, even the Hellenic(whatever, the rise of the city states and eventually Alexander time period) Greeks seemed to have been aware of the existence of Scandinavia. So it's not exactly difficult to imagine the Germanics learning of Mediterranean style written languages centuries before Julius Caesar brought Rome into direct contact with Germania.

Germanic inter-tribal warfare, like that practised by most rural dwelling people, was probably very small scale in nature and revolved around raiding other's property. The only professional warriors were the chieftain's select group of retainers and hearth guards, other men were little trained in the art of war and even if, in dire circumstance, were called to arms, they would not have been of very great combat value. Versus the urbanized (industrialized for their time) Romans who could afford to maintain a massive full time army and equip it, the tribal peoples of northern europe were at a distinct disadvantage, many times powerful chieftains would raise large armies, and win an initial battle against the Romans only to have their host (the word army implies a real level of organization, command and control) much weakened as men left for home lest they starve during the winter.

[AvramL]

Is anyone from CA reading this? if so can you post and just give us a hint as to what kind of things we'll see for the Germanic faction in RTW?

[Mr Frost]

Stephan the Beserker beat me to it : Runes are older than the Alaphabet the Romans used .
Runes are probebly older than the academic world currently believes . Celtic runes {Ogham} were known {though little understood} by the Romans however the Romans knew rather less {or were just more arrogant towards} about the Germanic tribes {mostly just sensationalism type information from churlish sources like Tacticus etc} .

The Latin and Greek alphabets are merely debased and inferiour runic alphabets that had lost nearly all their propper meanings {Latin even more so than Greek} by the time period in question . The Romans were more backward than most people realise . Greek alphabet was only popular in the Celtic world because of a desire to keep Ogham for spiritual and magical writings most of which are gone due to not only acts of destruction {"saint" Patric was as avid a book burner as Hitler} but also the fantasic memories of Druids and Bards {and other professional who worked with words like lawers/judges etc} being such that only a few copies of any work would be made as no more were considered neccessary .
Germanic runes were more widely used in Germanic society , but most works in them not in stone were destroyed by ignorant christians in the zealous conquests in the name of the nasarine . Charlamaine {or Karl der Gross if you prefer} boasted of putting entire libraries of rune books {the pagan Saxons of his period were more literate then the Romans had been at their height} to the torch . For that crime alone he deserved the miserable death he apparantly had {dying wracked with guilt for the crimes he commited which also included murdering his brothers , slaughtering countless women and childeren and old people _the old are the ones who pass down the most of a culture and religion to childeren you see_ and acts of desecration on places held sacred when Rome that spawned his church was but feoted swamp} . Destroying knowledge weakens the entire human race in the long run , and I consider the likes of Patric and Charlamaine traitors to humanity for that alone .

Runes came first . Latin once likely resembeled them in depth of meaning {I could fill pages on each Rune in Furthak or Ogham and still but touch on the full meaning of each} and ability to preserve knowledge and communicate over time {consider the multiple depths of meaning when each letter not only has it's own complex meaning like I/Ice _that's where the word comes from , but the origonal meaning if far more than the word now typically holds_ but also that changes in relation to context and the runes it is with and even possition ...} but sadly the custodians of those alphabets fumbled the ball and lost nearly all their meanings {only the sounds they represent now remain} .

[Mr Frost]

As for the symbol ? Ohdin {Wotan etc} is the patron of Kings and Princes for he is the All Father who leads his tribe {note : not in his guise as the Wanderer however , at least not in this context} and Thor the God of warriors .
Thors' symbol would be carried by individual warriors {though some might prefer/call to another god such as Tyr in some cases} whereas the leader {if he knew what he was doing} and thus the army as a whole would look to the All Father as Thor just fights {rather well , granted , but command and organisation arn't exactly the focus of his skill set http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif} .

Of course , that assumes they would have his symbol as a banner ... they might likely use some specific tribal symbol {that which says "this is us"} or some pertinant rune such as the Nazis stole {the counter clockwise "swastiker" is simply the symbol of destructive energy _clockwise is constructive_ in prodigious quantity} , which might have been deemed prudent to the campaign of the moment .

The All Fathers' Rune {an older version than is familiar today ofcourse} might be as appropriate as any for the Germans in the game .

[Kraxis]

No, the Cimbri were Celtic. The only source that describes them as Germanic are Roman, but the Romans set a geographic boundary between Celts and Germanians at the Rhine. Thus the Cimbri became Germanians. But rivers don't devide people it brings them closer as it is a great transport way. Just look at Egypt, those on the west bank wasn't different from those on the east bank.

As it happens the Cimbri king was named Boiorix, a distinctly Celtic name. Even the Teutons might have been Celtic as the Greeks defined them as such. But only might have been. There is no Germanian languages known from before 200AD. And the first Germanian king of the Swabians, Ariovist, happens to have a Celtic name to.

But it seems that the Danes did only enter Denmark in around 400AD.

[AvramL]

Indeed, a lot of mixing went on during the early Germanic contintental movements and many tribes probably blurred the lines between what was Germanic and what was Celtic. As for the Cimbri, I guess no one really knows for sure. Names can be tricky afterall, they may be translations into Celtic for one thing. Given the reaction from Roman legionaries when they first saw the Teutons and Cimbri (despite their familiarity with the Celts), and the distinction given to them from the Ambrones (a Celtic tribe that joined them)I would say that while there is little real evidence to prove that they were Germanic, there is also some good evidence to suggest that they werent your average Celtic tribes either.

As for those cities on the campaign map pic (forgetting the modern like names given to them) I think a better way to represent the tribal populations of northern europe might be through giving each major tribe a "city" named after it, which effectively represents that area and it's people, but which can change hands as other tribes etc. invade, and then rename the "city" to whatever their tribe is called (resulting in more than one with the same name, though).

[Belisarius]

Quote[/b] (jLan @ Aug. 15 2003,00:12)]Yeah the Goths came from modern sweden. (Western part I believe...) Göteborg, Sweden's second largest city (?) is actually named after a gothic (Götic) castle/fortress.
Nice you believe in Swedish 17th century propaganda http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The tribes that later was called ostrogoths and visigoths came from modern day Pommerania.

[AvramL]

All Germanics are thought to have originated in Scandinavia

[Belisarius]

Quote[/b] (AvramL @ Aug. 16 2003,15:29)]All Germanics are thought to have originated in Scandinavia
Can you back up that claim?

I can back up mine.....

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Is anyone from CA reading this? if so can you post and just give us a hint as to what kind of things we'll see for the Germanic faction in RTW?

I hope so AvramL, otherwise I wouldn't do this.


Zitat[/b] ]All Germanics are thought to have originated in Scandinavia

Most parts of Germany and Poland in this Time were covered by deep woods and Swamps, and the Population Centres of the Germanics centered at the Coasts of the Northern and Baltic Seas. So they are not really living in modern Germany nor in modern Scandinavia, it's a "Middle of Both". Through time they captured south Germany by chasing of the Celts, like the Bjornian Tribe in Boemia (which gave the Region its Name).
-------------------------

By that I would like to go foreward in CA requests on the game, through I think there are enough Mistakes that could be made which could be stopped before they are made.

Germanic Gouvermental System =>

Oftenly misunderstood as a kind anarchic Monarchy it was an Aristrocrathy including Represantatives of Religion and People.

The Lowest level was the "Thing" (Ring) which ment the Villagers to self-gouvern themselfes and elect a Village Elder. These "Thing" was led by a Gode (Priest) which was und Conrol of the "Tribalpriest" Tacitus reported.

The Tribal Priest was byself the Right-hand of the Furiste or Argipin of a Tribe (Tribe's Duke) and put in Office by him. BUT the Tribalpriest of course oftenly liked to support another Clanleader if he saw more Power for himself in his Gouverment (just like Church did in Medieval).

An Equivalent of the Villager "Thing" also took place between the Members of the high-society Familys, which was led by Furiste and Tribalpriest together. They discussed Political threads there and also liked to give large kind of BBQ-Parties...

Resulting Possebilties to Simulate this in RTW:

- Building called "Thing" which improves Loyality and Piety in Regions they're build in

- Strategic Unit "Gode" as improving Piety and serving as Emissiary, produceable with the "Thing" building

- Building called "Palace of the Tribalpriest" allowing to give a General the Title "Tribalpriest"

- "Great Hall" as Germanic Equivalent to the roman's "Town Senate", allowing to make a General the Province Gouvanor and highly improoving trade in a Province

[Hakonarson]

I reckon the Germanic symbol should be a pink triangle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]I reckon the Germanic symbol should be a pink triangle

Better than a spiked up Sauccage...

[AvramL]

"2000 B.C. .....The Teutons of this period are in posession of most of the Scandinavian peninsula, where a racially distinct Germanic Nordic has developed from a mixture of invading Indo-European Nordics and old stone age survivors....."

"100 B.C. The Goths cross the Baltic from the Scandinavian peninsula to northern Germany." Also modern Poland as well I should think.

-From the osprey men-at-arms series book Rome's enemies 1: Germanics and Dacians.

"The origins of the Germanic peoples are obscure. During the late Bronze Age, they are believed to have inhabited southern Sweden, the Danish peninsula, and northern Germany between the Ems River on the west, the Oder River on the east, and the Harz Mountains on the south. The Vandals, Gepidae, and Goths migrated from…"
-Encyclopedia Britannica, I would have to pay in order to get the remainder.

[AvramL]

I also read in a new Osprey book dealing with the Roman legions from the Civil wars to the invasion of Britain that the average height for an adult male Roman was perhaps 5ft 5in (165 cm). One can imagine that the average northern european male wouldn't have to be very tall in order to seem gigantic to the Romans Interestingly, the tallest skeletal remains of any Roman soldier come from Holland, and measure around 6ft 2in (185cm) but because of the geographic region, may be from a local recruit of the Frisii.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Hakonarson @ Aug. 15 2003,00:42)]Norse runes are post RTW by hundreds of years - they were developed from the Latin alphabet that filtered through Germany over the ages, and are not Germanic per se either
The runes developed from the latin alphabet through celtic influence, and believe me that this did not happend hundreds of years after RTW.

[Nowake]

btw, Thor's hammer gets my vote, even if it is not a very mistic or subtle simbol http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

As far as I can see "Thor's Hammer" gets most of the Votes, the Dragon used on the Screenshot got ZERO.

I guess CA should recognise that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Cheetah]

cmon folks, lets vote for the pink dragon http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[General Malaise]

Seen quite a few quotes about the origins of the Germanic peoples here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Teutonic peoples are actually directly descended from Celtic peoples, as the Teutons and Cimbri broke off and migrated away, settling around the Jutland area and creating their own separate culture...

[AvramL]

The origins of the Germanic peoples lie in Scandinavia around a thousand years before that event (which was around 100 BC) and about that time were starting to move further south on the continent, mixing, displacing, and absorbing some Celtic peoples. Some of the later Germanic tribal groups such as the Franks and the Allemans seem to have been heavily influenced by their Celtic neighbours.

As for the Germanic symbol for RTW, none of the options given get my vote, Thor's hammer, for one thing, is a symbol coming from a later period than what is covered in RTW, I would go for either an animal symbol like a wolf's head, or perhaps the tree of Tiwaz (the chief German god during this period).

Also, from what I gather from a recent rereading of a book I own, based on archeological evidence, only one in 10-20 Germanic warriors seemed to have been armed with a sword during the period covered in RTW, the remainder fought almost exlcusively with medium to short length spears good for stabbing or throwing (interestingly few finds of axes amognst weapons are found, just spears, knives, bows, a few swords, and shields). Ofcourse during later periods, especially during the great migrations, the number of swords and also axes found increases significantly.

[Nowake]

The wolf head must go to the dacians. Lets remember the dacian dracones http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Stefan the Berserker]

Thor's Hammer (http://www.ccgenerals-zone.de/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=18&sid=)

Time for a CA-Guy, simply collect the picture related to this link here and make a fine Pixeled imitation of it. And watch on the deatil with the Othala-Rune (Anchestory-Rune) on the Hammer...

Please repond to that threat... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif

I'll make a Reference topic on Germanic Faction to post more Information focused on them...

[Kraxis]

There will most likely be no wolfhead for either teh Dacians or any Germanics. The House of Scipii has it already.

Give them a ram or a bullshead or any powerful animal they would have had contact with. Possibly the European buffalo?

[Nowake]

I know the Scipii had a wolf head, so what? The dacian dracones was famous throughout the land It is very well depicted on Trajan's column.

The dacian tribal flag: consisted from a wolf-headed dragon on top of a spear - when the dacians attacked, the wind blowing through the wolf's mouth seemed like the howl of a real wolf, instilling fear in the enemyes and having a bad effect over their horses.

[Kraxis]

So it wasn't really a flag but more of a wind inflated figure? I'm not sure I understand you.

The figure you discribe isn't really that much like a wolf, and could 'easily' be put into the game. But can you imagine three factions with wolfheads? It just screams for people complaining about the lack of imagination, no matter how historical it is. And CA have to consider the people who don't know the true history.
STW didn't lose anything in my oppinion, that Takeda wasn't red and Uesugi wasn't black.

[knuckles]

Hi guys. Factions symbols are more or less my department. The dragon was used initially because of Germaic usage of dragon wind-sock banners, borrowed from there eastern neighbors. I don't want to enter into a big discussion about that, though, 'cause I'm willing to change the German symbol. I'm particularly interested in the opinion of anyone living in Germany, because I want YOUR faction to feel right. I don't want to use Thor's hammer for a number of reasons: Thor's stature really only increased toward the end of the viking period, He's not the chief god or really a war god. Tyr and odin are better suited to that, and it's hypothisized that in the ancient period Tyr (the sky god) was the chief god. I don't want to use any runes, because in my eyes there's not strong enough evidence that runes were widely used in the ancient period, plus I'd rather use a more widely recognizable symbol. So, here are some other possiblilties:

Spear - This is a strong symbol of the germanic warrior and also a symbol of Odin.

Raven - another smbbol of odin, less martial than the spear. The raven symbolizes both knowledge and the battlefield.

the labrys - a nice abstract symbol the visually relates to magic mushrooms (i.e. mystical knowledge) and battle axes.

triple drinking horns - another graphically pleasing symbol, once again referring to Odin's pool (or well or depth or ocean etc) of knowledge, as well as the ancient Germans liking of a good bout of binge drinking.

there ya go. discuss and CA listens.

Knuckles out.

[shingenmitch2]

The Wessex windsock, maybe a hold over from a cav troop of Sarmatians that the Romans transfered to Britain during their occupation. The Sarmatian standard was the dragon and red windsock. (I say dragon because that is how it is often described, but it really looks like a wolf/dragon and might actually relate to the mythical Indo/Iranian Simurgh wolf/bird) As many Sarmatians settled in the Dacian lands after having been pushed off the Ukrainian steppe and probably also passed the dragon/windsock on to the Dacians.

************
My vote for the Germanic symbol would be a stylized wild boar with upraised neck/back hair. It is probably a tad more appropriate for Celts, but Germans certainly shared the symbolism or any of the stylized animals off the Gundestrup Cauldron. Items from Denmark from the 200 BC period is where CA should be looking for iconic imagery. Any of the stylized animals on these items would be more appropriate than a dragon, the Nordic (read 800 A.D.) Donnar/Thor hammer or other Nordic runes. This isn't M:TW so the image research should be focused far earlier than the "Viking" iconography.

According to the ancient Greeks the Hyperboreans (which are often interpreted as Celto-Germanics) had a large cult following of a god that the Greeks associated with Atlas and the "Pillar of Atlas" apparently had great symbolic value to these peoples.

[Kraxis]

Knuckles, nice to see a new CA dev here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

In that case I would have to go for the spear. I was actually thinking of a spear while reading through your post. So I think I will stick to that feeling.

Shingen, the Cimbri were Celtic (though there is some controvercy about that, I am steadfast in that belief), and they were the people that lived in Denmark at that time. So that only underlines the need for the boar to be the symbol for the Celts.

[Shaitan]

@Knuckles

I'm a native german and had at first the runes in my mind when thinking of the old germans. Also the horns "feels" right at first. But many sugestions in this thread are okay because there is to few knowledge of this people in this time period.

Its very good so see that devs are listening to the community even in the case of such details.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Kraxis,

While I agree that at 200-300 BC the area (and the Cauldron) may well have been Celtic, yet Germanic peoples were in the region and Scandinavia from 1300 B.C. and by 50 BC the entire region (from Jutland to the Rhine, to the Danube, including much of Poland) was Germanic. The close proximity of the peoples and cultural exchange must have left Germanic art with much in common with the La Tene style. My understanding is that archeologists have trouble identifying the shift in the region from Celtic to Germanic which seems to underscore their closeness in culture, if not in language.

My biggest point was that the Germans were not the Norse of 800 A.D. and I believe looking at the ancient period for their imagery is much more appropriate.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Raven - another smybol of odin, less martial than the spear. The raven symbolizes both knowledge and the battlefield.

Yes, Hugin and Munin. A suitable Sybol, it get's my Vote They would be much better than the Dragon.

But to the Color: Germania is made Pink, can we have a diffrent Color?

Grey, Black or White? (HRE, Denmark or Swiss Color from MTW) - As far as I saw on Screenshots the Greek might have Black, but Grey and White arn't given...

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Please take a look at the "Germanic Reference threat" - I posted a lot there...

BTW: The many Requests I and other Gamers have on CA brings me to another Idea. Why not make a Forum called AUDIENCE ROOM and make a CA Member the Forum's Moderator, this way these Discussions went on easyer and with more effect...

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ Aug. 26 2003,22:30)]The Wessex windsock, maybe a hold over from a cav troop of Sarmatians that the Romans transfered to Britain during their occupation. The Sarmatian standard was the dragon and red windsock. (I say dragon because that is how it is often described, but it really looks like a wolf/dragon and might actually relate to the mythical Indo/Iranian Simurgh wolf/bird) As many Sarmatians settled in the Dacian lands after having been pushed off the Ukrainian steppe and probably also passed the dragon/windsock on to the Dacians.

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My vote for the Germanic symbol would be a stylized wild boar with upraised neck/back hair. It is probably a tad more appropriate for Celts, but Germans certainly shared the symbolism or any of the stylized animals off the Gundestrup Cauldron. Items from Denmark from the 200 BC period is where CA should be looking for iconic imagery. Any of the stylized animals on these items would be more appropriate than a dragon, the Nordic (read 800 A.D.) Donnar/Thor hammer or other Nordic runes. This isn't M:TW so the image research should be focused far earlier than the "Viking" iconography.

According to the ancient Greeks the Hyperboreans (which are often interpreted as Celto-Germanics) had a large cult following of a god that the Greeks associated with Atlas and the "Pillar of Atlas" apparently had great symbolic value to these peoples.
The dacians are atested to have used this flag since before the cimmerian migration, thus before the massive sarmatian arrival.

And another thing: your info is incorect. If you will do a bit of research you will find out that this Wessex Windstock was adopted from the dacian numerii that stationed in Britain for a very long time. I'll come with all the details if you want to.

[Hakonarson]

Some details would be good - I too have seen the tale that the dragon-sock may have gone to Britain with up to 6000 Sarmatians purportedly stationed there.

[shingenmitch2]

Hi Pr

I too would be curious to see more. My understanding is that the Geto-Dacians were recorded back as far as 600 B.C. and the Sarmatians were as well. So we are talking about contemporary cultures here, but who gave who the wind-sock?

I have no knowledge of dates for when either people adopted the wind-sock, but the wind-sock as a battle standard seems much more like something that would be invented for use on horse-back -- i.e. the wind from trot/gallop fills the sock. The Sarmatians were the cavalry culture, the Dacians much more hill-tribe and foot oriented.

Also (if I remember correctly) the wind-sock has some ties to the ancient orient -- and it would be the Sarmatians that have contact there as well.