gunpowder units...

[Lord_PH]

there has been little attention devoted to gunpowder units, ones that should have an impact on the game http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif (hmm...a bit n00bish, but NEway)

any specific strategies implemented to make gunpowder units worthwhile?

when, where, how, why to use them properly and other stuff...

[frogbeastegg]

Well it depends on which gunpowder units you mean. If you are talking about Shogun I've written this for my unit guide:

1.3 Arquebusiers.
Charge 0 Attack -3 Defence -3 Armour 1 Speed 5, 7.5, 9

Arquebusiers are the first gunpowder troops you get. They are peasants, just like the Yari Ashigaru, and suffer the same morale problems. Arquebusiers melee stats suck; you should never use them in melee if you can avoid it. The real appeal of this unit is the combination of gunpowder and cheapness. Cheapness speaks for itself – you can afford to have lots of these units, and to be honest you should never use guns in anything less than pairs to cover for each others reload times. The gunpowder requires more explanation. In Shogun guns have a very short range, they require a long time to reload, won’t fire in heavy rain or blizzards, fire at a reduced rate in light rain or light snow, have poor accuracy and fire on a flat trajectory – you can’t arc your shots over obstacles like you can with a bow. With all these drawbacks why should you bother? Guns do much more damage than arrows when they hit armour; Samurai armour is not made to be bullet proof during this period. This means that gunners are more deadly than archers. The short range required by the weapon often allows the gunner to take good aim compensating slightly for the accuracy. When deployed three or more ranks deep the gunners use a revolving fire system where the front rank shoots before retiring to the rear to reload. This increases the rate of fire three fold. The final advantage is that gunpowder causes fear, any unit under fire from guns is much more likely to break and run. Guns are also highly effective against cavalry; the horse is a nice big target When defending deploy several units of guns in the front line of your army, set them to hold their position and allow them to shoot freely at anything that comes into range. When the enemy is almost at your line of guns, charge with your other units to prevent the enemy engaging your guns. The main problem with Arquebusiers is that musketeers are much, much better and they are only a short hop (and a few koku) away once you can build Arquebusiers. When musketeers are available you should use them instead, they are better in every respect and only a tiny bit more expensive.

Best deployed: In three ranks on hold position and hold formation.

Arquebusiers main uses are: Forming the front defensive line, scaring units, shooting down cavalry, providing cheap bangs in your army, killing heavily armoured troops.

1.4 Musketeers.
Charge 0 Attack -6 Defence -3 Armour 1 Speed 5, 8.4, 10

Musketeers are basically improved Arquebusiers, they can do everything better. They have a longer range, higher accuracy and slightly faster rate of fire. Everything I said about the uses of Arquebusiers applies to musketeers – use them in ranks of three, use several units at once, keep them out of the wet, make sure they have a clear line of sight and order them to hold their position. Guns are especially good when defending a bridge, just set two units up within range of the bridge and let them fire away. Gunners have more ammo than archers and fire at a slower rate; this means that they will rarely use up all their ammo making them invaluable in long, defensive battles. Guns are less use when attacking because they cannot fire without a clear line of sight (the AI loves to park behind obstacles preventing a clear line of sight for your guns) and they have a short range, which leaves them incredibly vulnerable to dug in troops and defensive archers. With practise however you can get some use out of guns on the attack, use careful positioning and try to get them on good ground to the enemies flanks. With practise you can use musketeers to kill archers, just put them on loose formation, three ranks deep and make them run up close to the archers. Then stick them on close and order them to fire. Running up to another unit before firing can work very well on the attack as long as the unit doesn’t charge and kill your guns.

Best deployed: In ranks of three, on hold position and hold formation.

Musketeer’s main uses are: Everything the Arquebusiers do, but better


However if you are talking about Medieval all I've got so far is:

A special note on the gunpowder troops: (hand gunners, Arquebusiers and Mamluk hand gunners) Don't bother The accuracy on these units is so low they will only kill 4 men out of a formation of 133 in three volleys. They are pathetic.

But that's from the beginner's guide. I'm trying to find something better to say about the medieval ones but it's proving difficult. If anyone can suggest anything I'll be happy to give you credit if it's used.

[Shahed]

I LOVE the gunpowder units.
My favorites are the serpentine and the arqbusier.

Handgunners are good on valor 4, but NOT as missile units, rather they are good as swordsmen.

[Quokka]

Is it worth it to build Gunpowder units? I am playing my first game as the Spanish and its around 1230 but I am still using mainly archers and Jinettes as missile troops. I can make x-bows and arbalests and their Pavise versions but they fire way to slow.

I want some better missile units that I can make and not have to rely on Mercenaries being available so I was thinking Gunpowder units later but this


Quote[/b] ]Handgunners are good on valor 4, but NOT as missile units, rather they are good as swordsmen

has me worried that it might not be the best option.

[Maelstrom]

Go ahead and build them - They are fun and different.

They look good and make a great noise, just don't expect them to actually kill anything....

They are just like arbs, but with the range of a javelin, the accuracy of a mortar and the lethality of a damp dishcloth...

[Aelwyn]

Arqs and Handguns fire slowly as well. Although if you put them in a 3 deep formation they'll fire a bit faster than arbs I believe, don't remember for sure. (This is due to the fact that only the front row fires, the others are usually reloading their guns.) Any more rows though and you may have men standing around waiting to fire, and thats not efficient.

In Multiplayer I love using them both, but only in arid or desert climates, mostly arid. In lush you are GUARENTEED to get at least a few rainstorms, and you won't be able to fire in them. Try them out for a bit of a change.

Arqs obviously have a slightly longer range than handgunners, but HG's are better at melee. They are effective in shooting when your enemy is nearby, then charging while they are still somewhat Scared of enemy guns. Better yet, shoot at a unit while another unit is just about to engage them, but try to make it at an angle, or on a flank if you can.

[el_slapper]

Yup. Fire at will is the foe of the handgunner. Hold position, wait for the enemy being very close, then unleash the hell & charge. the charge might be done by either the handgunners or another unit, depends on situation. Usually devastating.

Of course, nice weather is a must, and not that common in my beloved ol' Europe http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Never tried Serps. I don't like the concept, seems like cheating.

[Lord_PH]

thanks for all the help...now i learn to hold fire and hold position for my units so that they have the best effect...

i'll try some battles in custom battles...

[Quokka]

I guess I'll try them then. I haven't made it that far yet. Wish I had some now, Crete is rebelling every turn and throwing up over 1000 Varangian Guards and Paranoiai Allagion. I had 1000 troops there too, good ones all Chivalric with armour and weapon upgrades but this time I'll lose it, I'll only have 118 Feudal Seargents and 22 Chivalric MAA to hide my ~200 Archers behind.

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] ]I guess I'll try them then. I haven't made it that far yet. Wish I had some now, Crete is rebelling every turn and throwing up over 1000 Varangian Guards and Paranoiai Allagion. I had 1000 troops there too, good ones all Chivalric with armour and weapon upgrades but this time I'll lose it, I'll only have 118 Feudal Seargents and 22 Chivalric MAA to hide my ~200 Archers behind.

Don't give up all hope as rebellions are for the most part dependant on the size of your forces there. Just hope they are not higher quality and you have a decent castle to retreat to so hopefully it won't fall in years and an assault would be deadly for them. 1 mice thing about an island there is no retreat so your men get a nice morale bonus and will usually fight down til they have taken 50 percent casualties.

[Quokka]

I'm way past 50% losses. I will train 100 new Feudals this turn and the other totals are a mix of about 6 other units. I have been retreating my Archers when they run out of ammo to save them, they are V6 and killing machines, but as my high quality troops have died the losses have risen and generic Feudal Sergeants are no replacement for +2 Weapon and +3 Armour Chivalric Sergeants. I want to save them just because they have been so brilliant but alas its not going to be, a pity.

[Si GeeNa]

Gunpowder units always worked for me. I like to play the Muslim factions and they tend to always have borders and battles in the desert. No hazard of rain there.

Firstly, they are awfully cheap. Both in construction costs and maintenance-wise.

Secondly, they discharge their ammo slower than the Archers and Arbalests. This means that for the large, long battles, you get fire-support for most of the confrontation.

Lastly, they are heavily armoured and can last surprisingly long even if charged upon by the enemy. You can even use them to absorb the initial enemy rush to probe for their exposed flanks with your assault line.

*avoid the Mamluke Handgunners, they are pretty pointless*

Of course, any unit has a certain point in the game. Its always how you use them that derives their Battlefield Role

*Recalls how peasant levies were always used as Operation Human Shield* http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Quokka @ Aug. 28 2003,13:42)]I'm way past 50% losses. I will train 100 new Feudals this turn and the other totals are a mix of about 6 other units. I have been retreating my Archers when they run out of ammo to save them, they are V6 and killing machines, but as my high quality troops have died the losses have risen and generic Feudal Sergeants are no replacement for +2 Weapon and +3 Armour Chivalric Sergeants. I want to save them just because they have been so brilliant but alas its not going to be, a pity.
Quokka,

If you really wanted to save the archers and are prepared to pay for them you could choose to abandon the province at the pre-battle screen and as your troops are on an island they will be captured and ransomed back to you although not very honourable and costly.

[Marshal Murat]

I personally despise arbiquisers, because they raise diddly squat. I've tried and they do zip. I've somethimes battled with arbiquisers against others and they usulally end up chargeing at each other without my orders. In Shogun, I could do regemintal battles. It was so much mor funner.