What's your Order of Battle?

[ShaiHulud]

I'm the kind that finds something that works and don't go much farther than that. (I always play expert, always Early campaigns...See what I mean? hehe)

Just wondering what YOU'VE found that works as your army mix.


My mix goes like this....

4 ranged units- usually two archers and two x-bows.
4-6 heavy foot- (ie:Byz Inf, Saracen Inf, Militia Sergeants)
3-4 cavalry- Two light cav and 1 or 2 heavies. (It's a rare sight for me to have more than 4 cav in a army)

The rest I fill out with spear type units. When I expect to defend, I often make a place for a catapult and, sometimes, naptha throwers (love seeing what they do to a massed group). Rarely use horse archers.... just can't see using 40 bows when I could get 60 bows, or 100 foot instead.

I've used Jinnetes and Murabitin but they require too much micro-managing to use their javelins. When used correctly, they do put the hurt on armor, but the range difference between throwing and retreating is minute. They usually don't figure in my mix.

[Revenant69]

My approach is pretty similar to yours in the sense that i ALWAYS use combined arms. As Germans have proved it in WW2, not alot can stand in a way of a combined arms assault. I think its a valid comparison http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

My usual army is built along these lines:
6 ranged units - 4 archers/longbows + 2 pavise xbows/arbs
6 or 7 infantry - usually 3 heavy infantry and 3 spear type inf
4 cavalry - 1 heavy, 1 light, 2 skirmish type cavalry

I like to rely on firepower. Weaken them first and then smash them with infantry and Cavalry. I find this setup works wonders, sometimes even in horrid weather. Maybe its just because i love ranged units. I have no idea. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I found it paramount to have light cavalry. They can catch annoying enemy horse archers and an army without light cavalry will not get alot of prisoners.

[Spino]

Seems like everyone is on the same wavelength here. I rarely use more than 4 infantry missile units unless I know I'm facing a massive force of horse archers. In addition I always have ~4 spear/pike units, ~4 sword/axe/polearm units and ~4 cavalry units (split evenly between heavy and light/medium horse. Sometimes I am tempted to use a more unorthodox troop mix but the game balance seems somewhat biased against anything but a balanced arms force. This is the result of the tactical AI being unable to properly handle anything else.

I have found javelin units to be far deadlier once the projectilestats.txt has been modified. If you extend the range of javelins from the default 1500 to 2000, 2250 or even 2500 those units are much more likely to discharge a volley or two before running away from an advancing enemy.

With a small bit of modding I believe it is possible to make a predominantly horse archer force effective in the face of a balanced or infantry heavy force. Simply increase the ammo counts to more realistic levels (1.33, 1.5 or even 2x the current levels).

[ShaiHulud]

Revenant.....

When I was still playing Shogun, I deployed six archers. Their kill ratio was much better than that in TW-Med. I understand that the VI version has deadlier bows. Is that what you're playing? It's my practice to specifically target the most deadly or vulnerable units, in that order. I don't often have them fire at opposing archers.... my strategy is to kill those later, with cavalry.

One problem I found with six archers in the mix is that, when I face a force which is very heavy in infantry, it's not possible to prevent them from over-loading individual units. The archers don't kill fast enough to cancel that(unless I'm blessed with a VERY steep defensive terrain).

Re: pursuit with light cavalry..so true Btw, you probably do this already, but, when I'm running down archers, before they've broken, there's usually more than one archer unit close to each other. I've found that I can pursue more than one unit by first double-clicking on the FARTHEST unit and then, when they begin to retreat in different directions, single-click to target on the other, closer, unit. A handful of cav will break off to pursue the second unit, as well, keeping both on the run.

Spino... your comment on the AI's tactical ability is accurate. I sometimes am forced to admire its tactics, but, usually, it plays out much the same way in every battle. I target their general with every archer that can see him, refuse them the flanks, then they commit everything but the archers. Then I send my cavalry around THEIR flanks to either rout their archers or help out in the worst places in the battle of the lines.

The AI does test me in protecting my flanks. It often forces me to commit my flank units before I'd wish to because they keep sending a unit farther and farther out. Once their line is too close to permit anymore re-positioning of my line, the AI pretty much forces this on me. The testiest problem is then committing my forces in such a manner as to keep the line without any huge holes appearing. I've learned, the hard way, that the AI will zoom in immediately on a gap in my line and send a unit though it to exploit my error.

If there's ONE thing I wish the AI would do, it's to keep even a single spear unit back, held in reserve to fend off cavalry flankers. That'd throw off my entire battle plan..hehe

[Revenant69]

ShaiHulud
As i said above i like firepower http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif No i do not play VI, and even thou i hear archers are far deadlier in VI - they have served me well in the regular campaign so far.

I rely on maneuvering a LOT. I only engage units when i got the best position on them. so i slowly push my wall of infantry and archers behind them to the position that i like while my cavalry tries to present a threat and distract the enemy.

Yes the heavy infantry armies are a pain, but if you maneuver properly - it becomes easy enough. Terrain is the key. Besides, certain archer types are quite good in melee anyways. I also like and use javelin type units instead of archers at times. All in all, it is a slightly different style of play i guess - but i enjoy it greatly http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Funny thing is i havce had some battles where no blood was spilled at all and won them by simply outmanuevering the enemy force. I wish i was smart enough to save the replay http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Theodoret]

I usually use two horse archer/mounted crossbow units rather than light cavalry if they are available to my faction. I've found that a useful tactic to disrupt an attacking AI's line of battle is to send a unit of horse archers around one flank and then pepper the outermost unit with arrows. The AI usually despatches a unit or two to chase the horse archers, and this means their army tends not to meet your lines in a single block. Its best to engage a unit far away from enemy cavalry, as the AI will then send infantry to pursue. I often lose a lot of the horse archers though (the skirmish mode is not a sure-fire way to keep them safe from infantry), so its not a tactic to use every time.

[HopAlongBunny]

Usually:

4 missle
4 spear
4 choppers
4 cav

This can all change drastically depending on the expected battle environment. Forests=more foot less cav less spear; Desert=more cav less choppers Bridges=more missle.

With some factions I will go with an all or almost all cav army (SP/Early) PoN and Turks seem to be best for this.

[Simovek]

I use 3 ranged (I'm not a huge fan on ranged, they just don't have the killing power I want. Although that has been inproved in VI so I am starting to use them more and more.)

So

-3 ranged
-4 spear
-3 or 4 sword
- 2 or 3 cavalry.

I end up with a stack of 900 something men but less than 16 units. It works out pretty good. It gives my army flexibilty. I can do anything with it really. I can use my sword and cav to attack, with my spears defending them from enemy cavalry. I can defend.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Quote[/b] (ShaiHulud @ Aug. 19 2003,21:47)]The rest I fill out with spear type units. When I expect to defend, I often make a place for a catapult and, sometimes, naptha throwers (love seeing what they do to a massed group). Rarely use horse archers.... just can't see using 40 bows when I could get 60 bows, or 100 foot instead.
Usually

4 spears
4 archers/ arb
2 ghazi/ gallowglass/ viking
2 fmaa, cmaa
2 heavy cav
2 horse archers

Like Theodoret says, Horse archers are good at drawing of units and then killing them. Shades wolf had replays on his site: http://www.shadesmtw.com/ I believe by seljuk sinan showing how to use the horse archers effectively. IN one them he gets a unit of varangians to rout on impact from turcomans charging from three sides

[Lord De Moray]

Fire power is the key

8 Archers, handgunners, all with armour if possible
6 Foot, deployed behind the archers
2 Horse, guess what.....on the flanks

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Al Qasim Hussein]

Revenant69
I like to rely on firepower. Weaken them first and then smash them with infantry and Cavalry. I find this setup works wonders, sometimes even in horrid weather. Maybe its just because i love ranged units. I have no idea

I couldn't agree w/ you more. I usually line up 4 units of infantry to obstruct any potential charges, then array my missile units before or behind my lines (depending on xbow/arbalest or bowmen units). On attack, I manuever my whole force until the ranged units become effective and then pepper their forces until they foolishly move in on me. After readjusting my missile unit locations if necessary, I involve my 4 units of sword/axe/whatever. the cavalry for me are mostly for manuevering behind engaged units and striking them, or chasing people down. I almost never employ heavy cavalry, though.

[RisingSun]

I find this topic far too generalized for me. For example, there is no way on God's green Earth I would use the same lineup as the Almohads as I would as the English,orthe Italians for that matter. As the English, with longbows, I have

-4 longbows (or more, depending)
-2-3 billmen (the ultimate anti-cav)
-1-2 cav
-The rest is usually spears and maa.

As the Italians not yet in the high period (but very close)

MAYBE 1-2 archers
1-3 cav
1-3 maa
The rst is the brilliantly magnificent Italian Infantry. In fact, I have an army in my currnt game with 8 Italian infantry, 1 Byz inf 2 royal knights, and 1 khawarziminian (sp) cav. Needless to ssay, its kickng ass up and down the Iberian peninsula.

[Shahed]

My armies are usually varied. It all depends on mission.
Here's an example.

Early Turkish Single Player

Sultan's Kapikulu [Royal Corps]
Objective: Constantinople
Route: Rum ---> Trabzon ---> Constantinople
Composition
-1 Ghulam [Sultan (King)]
-1 Ghulam [Shezade (Prince)]
-8 Akinci [prounounced akunche] of which, 6 Turcoman Horse + 2 Horse Archers
-6 Armemian Heavy Cavalry

Support & Resupply Group
Objective: Support Kapikulu Forces. Replenish depleted units. Reinforce in battle if necessary.
-1 Ghulam Bodyguard
-4 Akinci of which 3 Turcoman Horse + 1 Horse Archer
-3 Armenian Heavy Cavalry

Provincial Corps Trabzon
Objective: Hold Trabzon after conquest. Defend against possible counterattack. Maintain permanent garrison force.

-3 Akinci, of which 2 Turcoman Horse, 1 Horse Archer
-2 Armenian Heavy Cavalry
-3 Spearmen

Provincial Corps Constantinople
Objective: Hold Constantinople after conquest. Defend against possible counterattack. Maintain permanent garrison force.

-3 Akinci, of which 2 Turcoman Horse, 1 Horse Archer
-2 Armenian Heavy Cavalry
-3 Spearmen

Total Combat Strength excluding home provincial forces

-3 Ghulam Bodyguard
-18 Akinci
-13 Armenian Heavy Cavalry
-6 Spearmen

[Nowake]

Akin means pillage, IIRC. So they were lots of them, as the early turkish sultanate was nothing more than a small state destinated to gazi.

[Shahed]

Form what you see above, you will note that swarming tactic for the Kapikulu force will be used.

Provincial Forces will use hammer and anvil as primary tactic, once mobile archers are out of ammo.

[Shahed]

"a) Akinjis: The largest unit of serhadkulu cavalries, akinjis were the most famous of them. With the other serhadkulus,. they lived near the border and went on to raid each spring. Only a son of an old akinji had the right to become a new akinji, and only Muslim Turks were allowed to join their ranks. Akinjis were also the oldest type of soldiers in the Ottoman army......... Their weaopns incluided a sabre, a lance, a dagger, a composite bow and at least a pair of pistols........Before the Ottomans fought a battle, they sent the akinjis to damage the enemies' logistic centers, slow them down, inflict casualties and demolorise them."

courtesy Ihsan Erkoc.

serhadkulu = frontier corps

[Nowake]

They would also carry a lasso, an arkan or something. Am I corect, Sinan?

[Shahed]

I have a poor memory, but I can check up for you.

I do remember reading that they did. I would not be surprised given their mostly steppe/nomadic ancestory.

[Nowake]

I read about it, but the source was not very reliable. There it said they were masters of this art. I'm quite curious about what you're going to find.

[Shahed]

I'm still looking for where I read that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
I'm sure it's true. Now that you have asked, I would like to find it. I will end up finding it, I hope.

Meantime here is an image of Turcoman and what is said to be Mamlukes. Once the Mamlukes joined the Ottomans they too, could be deployed as Akinci (but they would still be called Mamluke though performing effectively as Akinci). Some could also be Sipahi (timariot or not I am not sure). they could be also be commisioned in other branches of the military.

http://webplaza.pt.lu/shahid/images/posts/akincismallorg1.jpg

Source:

Oxford Illustrated History of the Crusades (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192854283/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/026-2070901-2674049)

Comment: This book is a bit overated, still some good info, like above.

Not meaning to hijack the thread Shia.

[TheSilverKnight]

I like to invade provinces with mass armies, so the slaughter goes on and on until I find my happiness http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Theodoret]

Thats overkill - a well composed army of 800-900 is all you need to defeat anything up to 2000 men in size (above that and you do need reinforcements). I only us massed armies if I'm trying to scare the AI into abandoning the province.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

No, if you go in with 800 and the AI has 2000, it will more likely than not attack and so get thrashed. I would prefer to go in with 1500-1600 just to make sure the AI sits defending on a hill instead of coming at me (and have enough reserves in the event of a rout http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif), though the best battles I have had is when the AI deploys right up front and attacks from the word go and I have little/ no time to position my units in my preferred way.

[ShaiHulud]

Hmmm, It seems that only Seljuk has gone for an exotic mix. One day, soon, I'll have to give a good look at the cavalry arm and how to use it... Thanks, all

[Tiwaz]

Hmm. Looks like my quite heavily melee oriented armies are quite a minority here. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I usually have 3-4 archers max, perhaps 1 or 2 mounted ranged units with them. And plenty of heavy infantry and heavy cavalry with perhaps couple lighter cavalry units to do fast sweeps.

No wonder most of my battles end up in bloodbaths for both sides.

[TheViking]

this is my battle line as the byz when im a defender

S, K/P, SP VG,VG,VG,VG, SP, K/P, S
TA,TA,TA
TA,TA,TA
G

S= Steppe cav
K/P = Kataphraktoi or Pronoi
SP= Spear unit
VG= Varangian guards
TA= Trebizond archers
G= General most often a prince

Often i change the spears to 2 more VG, cus IMO they are even better on stopping cavs

I use this tactic in all factions when i defend and can use what units i want, but ofcus i change units then to units i can use in the specific faction

[Shahed]

Nice.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Seljuk, what does your signature mean?

[Parmenio]

Basic English

...................Bill.Bill.Bill.Bill...................
...................hook.hook.hook.hook...................
.........................................................
.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.
.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.L-o-n-g-b-o-w.
.Cavalry.Cavalry.........................Cavalry.Cavalry.

Defensive posture, advance to bow range if necessary.


General Eastern Armies

.HrsAr.HrsAr.HrsAr. .HrsAr.HrsAr.HrsAr. .HrsAr.HrsAr.HrsAr.
................... ................... ...................
......HMC.HMC...... ......HMC.HMC...... ......HMC.HMC......

HrsAr : Horse Archers in open formation
HMC : Heavy or Medium Cavalry (preferably with bow)

Initially skirmish and envelope enemy flanks and rear, keeping 'Heavies' back from engagement to destroy lone enemies units that stray too far. When encirclement looks good enough switch all units to close order and engage at will.

[Revenant69]

Quote[/b] ]Seljuk, what does your signature mean?

Yeah Selijuk, I also want to know what your signature means. I asked about it in another thread but you never responded. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Shahed]

Oops sorry for not answering earlier guys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Well it's hard to make it sound sensible in English. It's a slogan I made up after reading a chapter in a book called "In search of Saladin". I guess in English this would have the same meaning:

"Saladin. Your warriors stand ready at your command "

The language used is Urdu. Well there you have it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif