View Full Version : Mounted Crossbowmen
Revenant69
08-20-2003, 06:57
There are certain units that we all love and cherish (SAP, VG, JHI). But sometimes there are those units that truly and honestly surprise us, and they may not be the best or the most heavily armored or the best looking. Simply put, they get the job done. And at the end of the day that's all that matters.
For me that unit is Mounted Crossbowmen. Granted, my experience in MTW is somewhat limited, however i love these guys immensely. So far i have never played the faction that produces them, so they have always been "xbows for hire" for me.
My fascination with them began when i purchased one of them to help defend my frontier province that has been invaded by 800 strong army (i had less than half of that). My god was i ever stunned. They rode up to an enemy flank, shot a few volleys, pulled 2 enemy units out of position (promptly slaughtered by my cavalry). Then they infiltrated into enemy rear, destroyed enemy siege engines and killed all the crew in hand to hand combat. After that proceeded to pummel enemy units from the rear with bolts. After enemy broke, they chased down alot of routers.
At the end of the battle these guys had over 200 kills and only 5 casualties and gained 2 valour. As i said i was astonished by their performance. So much so that right now i hire every available crossbowman. They are superb skirmishers, able to melee against certain troops. Used to their full effect they are simply devastating, not even counting the fact that they are really good anti-armour unit.
Well these are my thoughts. Please tell me what was your experience with them and what do you think about them in general. Are there other ways that you have used them in?
They are a pretty decent unit if you ask me.
I always keep them behind my infantry peppering enemy armoured units and use them to charge whatever units routs first. They are aslo pretty useful destroying unprotected artillery, archers and crossbowmen.
In a nutshell very good because :
1. Only x-bows available in early area;
2. Only x-bows with no armour (good in desert battles);
3. Much better than most units at chasing routers. Because of their speed, they can even chase routing cavalry units, especially the slow ones such as kharpatoi.
4. Production requirements are lower than for mounted seargent (no keep, no spearworkshop, just a horsebreeder).
5. Units than often comes with a two or three stars general (very useful for a faction such as the HRE where you need to guard many provinces early in the game.
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Revenant69
08-20-2003, 09:12
Very interesting. I havent even thought of using them in the desert campaigns, how silly of me. Actually i cant believe i havent thought of using them in the desert (i usualy hire lots of muslim troops to do my dirty work there).
I have a question, if you park MC behind yuor infantry will the xbows fire over the heads of your infantry, thus not harming them? It does make some sense since MC is a taller unit. I guees ill experiment soon enough http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Also good point about early era only xbow unit. This is exactly the response i was looking for. Believe it or not i just added 2 tools to my arsenal based on your tips.
Keep 'em coming guys. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I have never noticed that X-bows you harm the units standing in front of them. I think that, just like archers, they only hit on friendly units that are in contact with their target.
I have not made any test but I always keep x-bows behind spearmen so I would most probably have noticed it if I had been slaughtering my own troops ...
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Sir Chauncy
08-20-2003, 09:30
Indeed they are quality troops. I had a bit of a revolt as the Italians that comprised of lots of spearmen. I sent in about three units of mounted crossbows and they just shot the marauding scum dead on the hillsides. Lovely. I used them in every battle after that.
el_slapper
08-20-2003, 09:57
For every use they have, you'll find a better counter part. But few units have such a wide range of usages. Their support fire is useful vs armored units, they can charge archers efficiently, flank & pursue. Their speed allow them to avoid most threats. As good as Jinettes, I'd say, in a slightly different role - Jinettes need to be near the enemy to unleash their deadly javelins, thus needing more babysitting.
In defensive operations, they are a very useful off-map reserve. Cavalry always enter first as reinforcements, so I find them good when you know your foot archers will have to withdraw due to lack of ammo. Even deployed on the map, they are good for replacing ammo depeleted archers - crossbow ammo lasts so much longer, they can tide you over until your replacement archers struggle into position.
I am in two minds about whether to bother with mounted sergeants if playing a faction that gets mounted crossbows. The crossbows can do the pursuit role adequately enough, although nowadays I tend to be over-cautious as I don't want to exhaust them given their useful role as backup ranged troops.
Rocket_Boy
08-20-2003, 11:40
I find them very good for harassing an advancing enemy army and drawing units out to be crushed by my heavier troops. However when it all kicks off, they require a bit too micromanagement to do anything too clever with them but are great for chasing down fleeing units.
A.Saturnus
08-20-2003, 11:47
They are definitely superior to normal horse archers. For the factions that get them, they are quite usefull. Alone the fact that they are fast, is worth producing them. But I modded them to be available only in high and late, so no early x-bows. But I also increased the size of cav units, so they are as effective as foot x-bows now.
Well, I learn something new everyday - mounted crossbowmen are fast? That increases my regard for them even more.
But a historical niggle - why are they fast? I can kind of understand it with Alans, steppe and Saharan cav (light raiders that can evade other cav) but not with these guys. Brings me to a related point - how authentic are such units? I have read mounted crossbowmen were highly prized troops circa 1200 but assumed they were effectively mounted infantry (kind of like Hundred Years War longbowmen) rather than that they actually fought and fired mounted.
A.Saturnus
08-20-2003, 13:30
No idea how accurate they are. However, at least in the later middle age, a knight had in his gleve often squires that carried crossbows and used them mounted, so it`s obviously possible.
Hurin_Rules
08-20-2003, 17:41
Another way to use them, if you are playing the HRE, is to take down Switzerland. If you start in high or late, the Swiss start with an impressive infantry force of Swiss pikemen and halberdiers. Often half a dozen or more of these deadly units. But guess what? They have no archers. So send 6-8 units of mounted crossbowmen against them and you will massacre hundreds without taking a casualty. Makes taking Switzerland a piece of cake.
Mega Dux Bob
08-20-2003, 18:37
Quote[/b] (A.Saturnus @ Aug. 20 2003,05:47)]They are definitely superior to normal horse archers. For the factions that get them, they are quite usefull. Alone the fact that they are fast, is worth producing them. But I modded them to be available only in high and late, so no early x-bows. But I also increased the size of cav units, so they are as effective as foot x-bows now.
an other plus to the mounted crossbowmen is they seem to always come out on top in a meele with horse archers, very useful when you are fighting those horsy factions.
Yoko Kono
08-20-2003, 19:07
szekely are the daddy of all skirmishers
o_loompah_the_delayer
08-21-2003, 12:44
Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Aug. 20 2003,02:56)]1. Only x-bows available in early area;
Is it possible to dismount them?
A.Saturnus
08-21-2003, 13:06
Quote[/b] ]an other plus to the mounted crossbowmen is they seem to always come out on top in a meele with horse archers, very useful when you are fighting those horsy factions.
Yes, they are superior to normal horse archers in melee, but be carefull with better ones such as Szekely, Steppe Heavy or Mamluk archers.
Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Aug. 21 2003,06:44)]Is it possible to dismount them?
I do not think so. Except in a castle assault of course.
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Quote[/b] (Jxrc @ Aug. 21 2003,07:11)]
Quote[/b] (o_loompah @ Aug. 21 2003,06:44)]Is it possible to dismount them?
I do not think so. Except in a castle assault of course.
*cough*Mod*cough*
Yes, Yoko, I was just going to say: if you like mounted x-bows you'll love the szekely. They are the business. In my last Hungarian campaign, the Pope must have been having nightmares about them.
Yoko Kono
08-21-2003, 18:42
i honestly cant believe more people talk about them
the szekely simply are too good and with steppe heavy and avar nobles producing lands very nearby and not to mention the finest javelin men in jobbagy the hungarians are simply immense
The_Emperor
08-22-2003, 11:45
I never really bothered with Ordinary Crossbows, I thought they were too slow at shooting and didn't do enough damage... Although they did have longer range. I thought the same would be true of their Mounted Counterparts, so I never really used them either.
Given the high amount of praise listed here I may have to use them sometime soon.
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Aug. 22 2003,05:45)]I never really bothered with Ordinary Crossbows, I thought they were too slow at shooting and didn't do enough damage... Although they did have longer range. I thought the same would be true of their Mounted Counterparts, so I never really used them either.
Given the high amount of praise listed here I may have to use them sometime soon.
They are quite useful, especially for some factions eg the Italians. The only drawback I see with them is that their reload time is long, so its often difficult to get off more than one or two volleys before an attacking enemy unit is too close. So I tend to gang my x-bows up on one of the enemy if possible, and retreat the x-bow that the enemy are trying to attack, while firing with the others. Works very well if its a slow armoured infantry unit. One on one against enemy cavalry they're not that much use to me, even if it is slow cavalry.
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ Aug. 22 2003,05:45)]I never really bothered with Ordinary Crossbows, I thought they were too slow at shooting and didn't do enough damage... Although they did have longer range. I thought the same would be true of their Mounted Counterparts, so I never really used them either.
Given the high amount of praise listed here I may have to use them sometime soon.
Their range is the same as archers, but their shot is vastly more powerful and they are cheaper (great garrison unit, especially coupled with Highlanders). So if the choice comes to x-bows and vanilla archers, I pick the x-bows, but usually support them with a few archers.
Mounted X-bows are great in my oppinion, I usually hire them when I can. They can, unlike horse archers actually do serious damage with their ranged weapon and in melee they are not bad, again unlike horse archers. So I treat them more like mounted line archers rather than like horse archers in a skirmish role.
after reading this thread i tried them out in my current campaign, man these guys are HOT
good mobility, and when you have three units fire on a single enemy unit at once they can totally ruin it`s day. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
you do have keep an eye on them, don`t bother with skirmish, but with a bit of management they are a real asset, i`m playing as the English so i can only get mercs, but they are definately worth it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
08-24-2003, 06:54
Hey Katar, i am glad that you like them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif This was one of the reasons for me starting this thread.
MC's do require alot of babysitting at imes but they are devastating (especially in Early period, even in High actually).
Quote[/b] ]good mobility, and when you have three units fire on a single enemy unit at once they can totally ruin it`s day.
I agree, mobility is VERY inmprtant. Last full campaign that i played i was Byzantine so i was never able to build MC's bu ti always hired them. And let me tell you - they are worth every florin http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Revenant69
08-24-2003, 06:59
Ok JAs and Yoko kono, when i first began to love MC's i did not have VI xpac - so i had no Szekely' or whatever. Let me tell you, MC's are AWESOME in v1.1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
The_Emperor
08-25-2003, 00:48
Ok I have to admit Mounted crossbowmen ARE great... Playing my turn in the HRE PBM I have found them really useful, and I am playing in the High Period
They are especially good in desert conditions, where they can function as a fast Light Cavalry after weakening the enemy with their shots
I am converted http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
tuopaolo
08-25-2003, 04:01
Does anyone know why the developers chose to have Mounted Crossbowmen available in Early while Crossbowmen are only available in High? Is there some historical justification for this?
I believe they had intended for the crossbows to be available in Early, but then found out that they almost outclassed archers in all departments, and did so very soon after them, so they moved them to High. But they forgot about the Mounted ones.
Shame they did not also realise arbalesters outclass crossbowmen and make them, rather than archers, redundant. I wish they would push arbalesters into late for the SP game, as they have for the MP one.
TheViking
08-26-2003, 14:22
i love mounted shooters, thats why i use cav archers in all forms as normal cav arch, byz arch, the turks cav archers, cant remember their name anymore, but the mounted crossbowmen shoot to slow thats why i almost never hire them.
Simon, you are right of course. But It takes a considerable time to go from Bowyers Workshop to Guild compared to go from Bowyer to go to Workshop. So it is a little more fair than crossbows in Early.
Yoko Kono
08-26-2003, 18:55
he means they can both become available to build as soon as the late period starts provided you have planned ahead, in which case the crossbows are already obsolete
a much better solution would be to make arbalests available only in the high period in SP making crossbows a far more appealing weapon in the late era
Quote[/b] (Yoko Kono @ Aug. 26 2003,12:55)]he means they can both become available to build as soon as the late period starts provided you have planned ahead, in which case the crossbows are already obsolete
a much better solution would be to make arbalests available only in the high period in SP making crossbows a far more appealing weapon in the late era
I know he meant that. But the step from workshop to guild is much higher than the step below.
Besides, don't you mean crossbows in High and arbalests in Late? The other way might work as well, but it would be rather strange. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yoko Kono
08-26-2003, 22:51
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I dunno, I always find with a little advance planning I can get arbalesters in 1205 or a few years after so never build crossbowmen. Chivalric knights, on the other hand, now there is a high period unit I do have to wait for, unfortunately.
Revenant69
08-27-2003, 00:13
Wow guys thanks for all the feedback. It's kind of cool that some people like them too. I am especially proud of this one:
Quote[/b] ]Ok I have to admit Mounted crossbowmen ARE great... Playing my turn in the HRE PBM I have found them really useful, and I am playing in the High Period
They are especially good in desert conditions, where they can function as a fast Light Cavalry after weakening the enemy with their shots
I am converted
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