Germanic Reference threat

[Stefan the Berserker]

I'll post many things about Germanics and Ideas for RTW here, it will not be completed with this sinngle Post and is open for all other Ideas you might have.

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Germanic Armies ->

Germanic Warriors were never "Soldiers" (the word comes from "Sold" - Payment), becuase the never reciefed any money from their Leaders and could decide wheter they go to War or not. But this was not typically Germanic, in most Celtic and Slavic Tribes the volunteering of the Warriors was also usual.

There were two Arguments that brought Warriors to join:

A) Their Religious and Political Leaders requested them to do, so they oftenly felt it as a "Duty".
B) They were offered Bait they could keep after the War.

Rhich Lords oftenly kept a small Mercenary Army for Self-Defense, but these were never strong enough.

Deployment in RTW:

The Strategic Unit representing a Barbarian Priest (maybe Druids) has the Option "Call to War" if you right-click on them. If you click that Option a new Window appears.

"Call to War" - Window

In this Window you do now choose which Enemy you want to fight and how many % of the Bait you want to keep for your own pocket. If you now Click "Ok", the Game calculates an Army for you which is then named "Army of X" (Replace X through the Province's name).

This Created Army will only fight the Enemy you chose and it's size and composal will be variating through Structures, Bait-% and Loyality in the Province. You can not mass-produce Volunteer Armies through every Province may only have ONE and it's only going to fight the Enemy you selected (If you made Propaganda to make People fight the Romans, they won't invade Greece). You can disband the Army if you don't need it anymore. The real Advance of them is: They don't cost in Production and supply (they rise byself and supply themselves through Raid)

Single "Mercenary" Units can be Produced too, but they are very costly.

This would also be an Innovation and Realism+ in RTW, because you now have the though disciplined Roman Legions compared to dis-organised fanatic Hordes of Barbarian Factions.

[Hakonarson]

Tehre could be large numbers of mercenaries in Gallic armies - eg the Gaestati. In Germanic ones allied tribes might be "induced" to coem along by payments of various types.

But basically the system you propose for gathering armies applies to most ancietn societies - indeed it would be good for MTW too

Of course troops that fought for loot often had a tendency to wander off home once they'd got that loot too

[Shahed]

Germanic Reference threat PLUS Stefan the Berserker

EQUALS ---> LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/joker.gif
Just kidding. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/pat.gif nice points.

What does soldner mean ?

[Shaitan]

The idea is really good. But I think it won't be implemented for the sake of a "simple" gameplay (for the more mainstream consumers).

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]soldner

Soeldner = Mercenary in German
Soldat = Soldier in German

Both german Words and also the english word Soldier developed from "Sold", which means Payment. During Reneissance and expecially in the 30-Years war Mercenaries replaced the traditional Warriors.

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Zitat[/b] ]But basically the system you propose for gathering armies applies to most ancietn societies - indeed it would be good for MTW too

Yes, right. Also the early Legions were Militia-based, but not "Volunteer". The early Roman Army was based on organising the compulsed Militery Duty of all Roman Men between ages of 20 to 50. But they were much better organised and trained professionally.

How to imput both? ->

Early Legion Units (Velites, Hastatii, Triarii) and Greek Hopilites have two modi "On Duty" and "Out of Service". If you put them on "On Duty" they work just like in Shogun or MTW. If you set them "Out of Service" they don't cost but you must first "Mobilise" them to change to "On Duty"-Modus, which takes a turn of time. Additionally the missing of the Men on their Farmgrounds drives down the Economy in their Homeprovince, so Wars should be short.

This System could be intended for ALL Cultures and made be specific for the Unit-Types. So early Legions work after that System, late Legions are always in "On Duty"-Modus and can't be changed.

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The "Out of Service"-Modus on some Units allows great Economy Projects, through the Militery of the Respublica won't slubber all the Dinarii away (like in later Impirial Rome).

That simple Options are good enough to be even controlled by a real dummy TW-Gamer. The Barbaric System I intended could then be downsized to an "addition": The System to simulate a Loyalist-Rebellion is used if a Priest makes the "Call to War", Units join your Army and go home if you end the War (Auto-disban with peacetreaty, you can't controll). To prevent Peace could be used as a Trick, the next call for War if the former Enemy attacks your Faction produces even more Units (through people now belive that the enemy Leader is a lying Devil).

So the Barbarians can go to War very easy, but quite Chaotic.

I guess this makes adding my Idea easyer and also makes Roman-Gameplay more realistic through early and Marian Legions can be compared

[Stefan the Berserker]

Barbarian "Specials" ->

Barbarian Factions have Tribes and also no Formations.

Display of Tribes...

In MTW you could choose which General should be Gouvanor of a Province, with Romans this works, but in Germania??? I guess the try to make General X Duke of the Saxons would have led to a nice Rebellion. Also the Leader of a Tribe never accepted a direct order of another Tribe's Leader.

I got an Idea on this:

All Barbarian Provinces auto-produce a "Duke"-Unit like Heirs/King's Units are in MTW, if the Leader dies you simply get a Message "After the Death of their Agrippin the Saxon Elderthing elected a new Leader: Frodi the Bullwarg" and the old Unit is simply replaced. Also you can't simply put him out of Office, if it's a corrupt Ass you can only try to assasinate him (which is the easyest way to Civilwar).

But the same Way the uncontrolled Leaders are a Danger you get a lot of Leader Units, I guess somehow heavy Cavallary, for free.

That's easy and makes Tribes more realistic...

Formations ->

Do you think Gaulish Fanatics storming a Roman Unit in Formation, even in Roman Cubus-Formation? I don't.

I guess there should be a random "Formation" called "Charge Wave" which simply lets the Barbarian Units fight in random forms which have no advance in Combat. The Dense Formation, open Formation and Form an Arrow Opions are greyed out. After certain Dates, for Germanics 8 A.D. , Formations are unlocked and made avarible.

Partisans ->

Mostly Germanics loved Guerillia Warfare, even before this word was invented. These could be displayed quite easy: Make a Unit called "Partisans" which makes 30 standard Warriors able to throw Spears and fight with Swords, but able to cloak like Battlefield-Ninjas did in Shogun. Partisans are thought to only be able to cloak, not to have supiorior Combat Odds like Ninjas had to normal Infantry.

Their usage is: Small price Unit for Guerllia tactic

Sneak up behind a roman Unit and killing enough of them from the Rear, then the Normal Infantry of Germanics continues the work...

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Special Detail on Arminius: Arminius was in service of the Romans as an Officer, as you might know. He also had some Militery Awards and still used his roman armor when he turned Duke of the Allemannens The Gamestar contained a Screenshot that should have shown him, which doesn't fit on his discription. Arminus and Flavus ment "Blonde Guy" in Latin, so Arminius was Blonde, not red-hair like on the Screenshot. Additionally he still has to wear his Roman Legionaire Armor with some Medals on the Chest, so this "Detail" should also be inplented

We want Historic Figures to be accurate, also Germanics like to BUY (yes, you heared properly) Armor from the Blacksmiths of the Auxilia Units at Roman-Germanic Border.

Please CA, make Arminus how he has to be

[AvramL]

I am not very up on Latin myself, I thought though, that while Flavus indicated someone with perhaps blonde hair, Arminius gave no such indication.

Also when did Arminius becom chieftain of the Allemans? He is said to be of the Cherusci tribe. Ofcourse there has always been speculation as to how unified these "confederations" like the Allemans, Franks etc. really were, given the relatively primative state of government of the Germanic tribes.

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Also when did Arminius becom chieftain of the Allemans? He is said to be of the Cherusci tribe.

The "Allemannen" means "All men" in English, it wasn't really a Tribe it was Arminius' political Faction (like Optimates and Populares in Rome). The Allemannens followed the Political Idea of Uniting all Germanic Tribes under a new Gouverment.

Arminius was sent to Rome by his Parents in his Juth (about 10-17 Years old) to study at a roman Militery Academy. Then he served as Commander in roman Auxilia in Germania Superior, where he married his wife Thulsnada, a Doughter of a romanised local Aristocrath from Colonia Agrippina (today's Colone).

At about 7 A.D. his Father died and he became the Leader of the Cherusci. When he became the Leader of the Cherusks, he started large Champaigns to increase their Power and he already had the Vision of uniting Germania so it would not have to life the same Fate as Gallia. So he also re-organised the Army of the Cherusci in roman Style and even reformed the Cherusci tribe's Gouverment.

Quintilus Varus came to a very stupid Idea: He requested Tax from the neighbouring germanic Tribes (who byself had no tax at all), the fact independant Chieftans had to pay tax to the Varus made them Upset. Arminius told Varus that some of the other Chieftans planned to kill the Roman Legatii who would come and request the Tax. Instead of thinking about lifting the Tax in order of Diplomacy, Varus instructed Arminius of his Idea to Punish the Tribes with Militery Power and the MOST STUPID IDEA EVER: Varus told him where he wanted to attack.

As Arminius knew about Varus plans, he was in a Situation of a critic Decision: Continue the Alliance with Rome or Defend his Country from colonisation.

He decided for Germania and instructed the other important Tribes on Varus' plan. They decided to dig-in at a Valley (today's Kalkriese) Varus Army had to pass and wait for them, so they had created a trap.

Arminius and his Allies defeated the whole three Legions in Varus Command, then the Name "Allemannen" was born for that Alliance. And Arminius was it's first Leader and last Leader.

The "Allemannen" first defended Germania from the Invasion of Tiberius Germanicus, and then fought a Civilwar against other Tribes like the Marcomans who refused to join their unity-Gouverment. While that happened, a small Conspiracy of Arminius' Brother Flavus and Thulsnada's Father kidnapped Thulsnada and Arminus' Son.

When Arminus was about 34 years old he controlled whole western Germania Libera from Saxony to Boehmia. With his Militery Power of Germania installed, he wanted to fix the Political Unity and rise a real state like he got to know it when he was in Rome. To do this he took away political Power from Aristocraths an Priests, which resulted that one of them decided to kill him by putting a Dagger in his Side while a Party...

Through Thulsnada and Arminius' Son were kidnapped the Allemannens had no heir and all his "Generals" begun to fight each other.

His early Death is perhaps a Keyevent in History, through with about 20 Years more life and a Heir he could have had succsess and the Germanics had unified. But as you can see this political View never became truth...

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Input on Game:

Arminius was very friendly and a close Allie of the Romans, before Varus had his stupid Idea. He used the Armor he got when he served in his Auxilia Unit in Varus Battle and even when he was already Duke of the Alemans, through he liked it.

Also his Strategy was very good, in Historical Battles the AI Oponents displaying Arminus should be Clever

Alemans and "Germanics" should be different Factions (like Novgorod and Russia in MTW), to make "What if?" playable. The diffrence of Alemans-Faction to standard Germanic Faction should be the stronger Gouverment and the ability to create improvements like Streets...

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] ]Varus instructed Arminius of his Idea to Punish the Tribes with Militery Power and the MOST STUPID IDEA EVER: Varus told him where he wanted to attack.


Quote[/b] ]They decided to dig-in at a Valley (today's Kalkriese) Varus Army had to pass and wait for them, so they had created a trap.

As far as I know Varus was on his way to the winterquarters when he was led through the forest by Arminius who then excused himself (as all the other Germanics did over time) and left. The trap was set.

But it is correct tht Varus wanted to use full force of power to beat down uprisings, and he did that. That might have caused Arminius to think it wasn't as great to be Roman, as he was with the army then and fought with it.
But lets remember that it was Roman tradition to strike back with full force every time, including uprisings.

[AvramL]

Where do you get all your detailed information on Arminius and the Allemans?
I was under the impression that very little was known about the whole thing and that whatever the Roman historians wrote was somewhat suspect.

from osprey's Germanic warrior book:

"Alamanni(Alamannen, Alamans): a confederation of Germanic tribes who were one of Rome's main opponents during this period. The name means "all people". Their descendents are the modern day Alsatians, German swiss and the inhabitants of most of Baden.
The ancient confederacy probably included some Swabians, together with the Hermunduri and Juthungi."

according to these maps, the Alamanni don't appear until around 200 AD.
http://www.euratlas.com/time1.htm

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Where do you get all your detailed information on Arminius and the Allemans?
I was under the impression that very little was known about the whole thing and that whatever the Roman historians wrote was somewhat suspect.

In Germany the history of Germanics is part of History Education at school (even if it could be better), also there is a good book entitled "Die Stunde der Germanen" which was probably never translated.

As you know I visited the Museum in Kalkriese, where they have a lot of Information on this.

Another good read on Germanics is for example "Heidnische Naturreligion" from Geza von Nemenyi. Which is also a german book left untranslated. (Nemenyi has some troubles, click that link and simply hear it:Geza Blues (http://www.rabenclan.org/Gezas_Blues.mp3))

Neo-Germanic Groups also have great knowledge about Germanic Mythology (it's their Religion) and Culture. One English-Pagan Site of the Oragnisation "Odinic Rite" (http://www.odinic-rite.org/index2.html). I guess finding Websites like this can be strange when seeing the first, but they're normal people.


Zitat[/b] ]THE CALL OF OUR ANCIENT NORDIC RELIGION By A.Rudd Mills
One of the earliest pioneers of the reawakening of Odinism in an overt manifestation in the 20th century CE., was an Australian solicitor; Alexander Rudd Mills (1885- 1964 ce.) also known as Tasman Forth. Mills` enquiring mind led him in time to become reconnected with our natural religion and he founded an Odinist group, The First Anglecyn Church of Odin.....

For full information about this book please click here
* The Court of Gothar wish to thank Else Christensen of the Odinist Fellowship for making this booklet available to us.

US and Canada £3.50, Rest £5.00


One of the Books they offer under Section "OR Shop" on their Site. 3.50 Pounds arn't just too much...

Maybe I know well about it through I'm collecting Info on it since 5 Years and oftenly behave somehow Germanic...

[Stefan the Berserker]

Sunobservatorium:

http://www.spiritproject.de/astro/images/gos.jpg

The Picture at the Top is a reconstructional View of a 7000 Years (the oldest of these Structures and older than Celtic and Germanic Culture) old Structure in Goseck.

Purpose? -> The Ring has three Gates. On December 21 the Sun rises exactly in the Left Gate and goes down in the right Gate before Night. This narrow easy Idea was this way a giantific Calendar, which helped the Clerics to calculate the Date when the Farmers had to seed.

The Sunobservatorium could be turned a Monument, like the Pyramids (and Stonehenge I hope). Maybe even a Structure you can build in the Game, through we Scientists found many similar Places in former Germania Libera.

Another Monument in Germania should be the "Externsteine" ->

http://www.externstein.de/Wasserbild24052001.jpg

Also "Irminsul":

http://www.knusperhex.de/portal/bilder/irminsul.jpg

Irminsul means "Grand Axis" in English and is the southern Equvalent to "Ygdassil" of Scandinavia. One very HUGE Irminsul was owned by the Saxons, but destroyed by Charlemagne in 772 A.D. Maybe a small structure...

Also an Irminsul is reported to have been at the Externsteine, so this large Pin should be added at the top of one of the Rocks

[AvramL]

Does the museum at Kalkriese have English translations?
I was hoping to visit the place when I travel to Europe next summer and my German is pretty weak, especially considering the kind of vocabulary I would expect to be used (neither do I have anyone to translate as none of my German relatives live near Kalkriese nor would they be interested).

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Does the museum at Kalkriese have English translations?
I was hoping to visit the place when I travel to Europe next summer and my German is pretty weak, especially considering the kind of vocabulary I would expect to be used (neither do I have anyone to translate as none of my German relatives live near Kalkriese nor would they be interested).

Unfortunatly they don't have English translations, can't help there...

[AvramL]

Do you think you could post the picture of German cavalry from Gamestar here?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Do you think you could post the picture of German cavalry from Gamestar here?

I tried to find the Screenshot in the Internet, unfortunalty it was only part of the Magazine's Article. Through I have no free Webspace I can't post a scanned version of it, but I could work out an send it to you via email...

Arminius' Life (http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de/projekt/2/2c.html)

But I found a Site with Arminius' Life, so I can post more exact Data:

http://www.geschichte.uni-osnabrueck.de/projekt/images/Armin.jpg

This is Arminius' Family-tree, including his Parents Sigimerus and Ingoluna, as well as his Son Thumelicus and brother Flavus (and the parents of his wife Thulsnada).

Arminius' Life ->

17 B.C. Arminius is born

8 B.C. His Parents agree to sent him to Rome.

From 4-6 A.D. Arminius serves in the Army of Tiberius as a Militery Tribune (that what the Character Maximus from Gladiator was, if someone might ask) for his exellent Duty he got the Roman Citizenship (civitas Romana).

After 7 A.D. Arminius returned to Germania libera (eventually through the Death of his Father Sigimerus). He becomes the Leader of the resistance against the Germania-politics of Varus while his Brother Flavus still serves in Tiberius' Army.

9 A.D. Arminius prepared the Trap in the "saltus Teutoburgiensis". Varus' Army was defeated in a giantific Battle that waged three Days.

After 9 A.D. Thulsneda (the Daugther of the roman friendly Lord Segestes) was kidnapped by Arminius. Also many other germanic Leaders preferred peace with the Romans.
* Edit: Thulsneda's and Arminius' marriage was planned before the Varus Battle but "cancelled" by Segestes, so Arminius got his wife.

Tiberius and Germanicus continue the War against Arminius.

15 A.D. Arminius' Party became Dominant and enclosed Segestes in his "Castle". Germanicus liberated him from the Siege and also captured the swanger Thulsneda who wanted to see her Father a last time.

15 till 16 A.D. Arminius fought even more agressive because of the Reason below.

The Romans end their Warfare east, through they saw they could not succseed.

19 A.D. Arminius died through a Conspiracy of Rivals including his own Brother Flavus assasinated him.

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Putting his Life in a Historic Campaign:

"The Tribune" 5 A.D. - A fictious Scenario in which Arminius leads Germanic Auxilia and Roman Units against other Germanics to display his Service in the Roman Army.

"The Varus Battle - Day 1" 9 A.D. - Day 1 of the Varus Battle, surround the Romans and enclose them in the Vally so they can't flee. Surrvive 20 Minutes against their will to break out.

"The Varus Battle - Day 2" 9 A.D. - Day 2 of the Varus Battle, romans try a breakout. Smash those Units who try it

"The Varus Battle - Day 3" 9 A.D. - Day 3 of the Varus Battle, Varus and most of the important Officers already did sucide. Now it's Judgement Day: Go in and defeat the dismoralised rest of Varus' Army

"Siege of Segestes' Castle" 15 A.D. - Arminius storms a Minor City defended by Roman and Germanic Units... You only have 15 Minutes of Time to win, otherwise Segestes will hide in the highest Tower. Can you do what Arminius could not accomplish? (Very difficult Scenario&#33http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"Revenge" 15 A.D. - A Battle of Arminius and Tiberius' Troops, take revenge for the kidnapping of Thulsneda and Thumelicus Very Bloody Battle...

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Zitat[/b] ]Alemans and "Germanics" should be different Factions (like Novgorod and Russia in MTW), to make "What if?" playable. The diffrence of Alemans-Faction to standard Germanic Faction should be the stronger Gouverment and the ability to create improvements like Streets...

Quoting myself... There should be two Germanic Factions to display Arminius' fight on Rome and other Germanic Tribes also in normal Campaign. Like Golden Horde in Medieval appeared, the Allemannens should appear in 9 A.D. as a Faction that differs from the Original Germanics. By giving them most of the Germanic Provinces, exepted some at the Border and in Boemia, he turnes enemy of the remaining pro-roman Lords automatically.

But they should be named diffrently: Segestes-Germanics and Arminius-Germanics (like we have Scipio, Julius, Brutus etc. Romans). My Tip: The Pink Germanic you have now are getting the Segestes-Germanics, and a new Faction with "Viking-white" as the Arminius-Germanics appears after 9 A.D. ...

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]I don't want to use any runes, because in my eyes there's not strong enough evidence that runes were widely used in the ancient period

Widely usage of Runes in ancient period can be prooved

Tacitus says: "Nobody respects Signs and Oracles more then them. Their Oracle is quite easy. They cut Wood froma Tree that bears Fruits and cut them into pieces, these they do now mark with signs and throw them randomly on white wool. Within an offical Oracle the Tribalpriest, in private the Father of a Family does now pray to the Gods, lifts, to staring to the sky, after each other three pieces of Wood and interprets them after the signs they have. If the Oracle's result is bad, they don't ask it about the same topic on the whole day; if the answer was good they think it must be prooven by a Sign."

The same ritual is reported of the Dark Age Pagans in Germany and the Vikings, and in these Rites the signs were called "Runes". Tacitus lived in 70 A.D. so after the Logic that he can report about that this Oracle was so important for Germanics, the Oracle must already be aged with Centuries.

So Runes can appear in RTW. For example on shields and General's Standards...

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Is this Threat annoying or do I preform well? I only hope my Info reaches CA Developers... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I'll also send Media, if CA Developers or Mods would provide an Email adress I could send it too. I have no free Webspace were I could put it in...

[Stefan the Berserker]

Tacitus 1 (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html)

Here is a Site with extracts from Tacitus' Book "Germania".

Councils- About minor matters the chiefs deliberate, about the more important the whole tribe. Yet even when the final decision rests with the people, the affair is always thoroughly discussed by the chiefs. They assemble, except in the case of a sudden emergency, on certain fixed days, either at new or at full moon; for this they consider the most auspicious season for the transaction of business. Instead of reckoning by days as we do, they reckon by nights, and in this manner fix both their ordinary and their legal appointments. Night they regard as bringing on day. Their freedom has this disadvantage, that they do not meet simultaneously or as they are bidden, but two or three days are wasted in the delays of assembling. When the multitude think proper, they sit down armed. Silence is proclaimed by the priests, who have on these occasions the right of keeping order. Then the king or the chief, according to age, birth, distinction in war, or eloquence, is heard, more because he has influence to persuade than because he has power to command. If his sentiments displease them, they reject them with murmurs; if they are satisfied, they brandish their spears. The most complimentary form of assent is to express approbation with their spears.

This is how Tacitus reports on the Thing-Rite, which was some kind of Tribal Parilament. So, a Building called "Thinghall" should be there for Germanics that has the same Effect as the Roaman's "Town Senate". It could be shaped like the Viking's "Festival-Hall" in MTW.

Tacitus for cheap (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140442413/102-4431420-0238507?v=glance)

Here you get the Books "Agricola" and "Germania" of Tacitus in English translation and with a large Introduction. The original "Germania" is only 60 Pages in size, so I guess a CA-Designer can read it fast enough to filter Ideas from it.

AvramL, this Book could also be interessting to you

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Grumble Now I can change my Name to "Stefan the germanic one-man show"...

[AvramL]

"AvramL, this Book could also be interessting to you"

Indeed, I shall purchase it immediately, I never even bothered looking for Tacitus' works before on Amazon or any other retailer, I just assumed that they wouldn't have it

[Stefan the Berserker]

Germanic Units...

- Barbarian Cavallary
- Babarian Archers
- Barbarian Axemen
- Berserkers

(these are already done)

Now to new ones I think are needed:

- Partisans
- Edelings
- Roemlings

Partisans can be displayed as a group of 20 Spearmen, who are able to cloak and this way be "invisible" like Battlefield-Ninjas in Shogun. But they are not capable to be used as General-killers through they have no Missles. So they are made for "Sudden Strikes" to skirmish and dismoralise the Enemy.

Edeling is a word from the Sagas, it means "Noble". Imagine "Viking-Footknights", then you have a picture of them. They were, diffrently to other germanic warriors, primaily armend with Swords and wore a good armor protecting them. They should be integrated, through they can crush Legionaires with ease... for an expensive Price

Roemlings/Romaburger/Romans are Germanics who were trained in the Roman Auxilia Units. After their active Service they could keep their Armor and Weapons from their Service and they got the "Civitas Romana", the roman citizenship. Oftenly those returners became quite respected in their Homeland, in case of Arminius and Segestes they also fought against Rome. They were "Hastatii" with Barbarian Origin.