Playing Almohads in Late

[Tony]

Hi Folks,

I am having a heck of a time just surviving as the Alomohads in SP Late. Within the first 10 years the Pope invites everyone to crusade against me and a few years after that I have English and Spanish crusades aimed at my heartland (Granada and Algeria). Then the French get in on the act and stomp what little I have left.

I just can't stop these guys, even in the desert. The crusades are coming at me with CMAA, Chiv Seargeants, Halberdiers, Order Foot, Arbs and an abundance of knights of various flavors. I get smashed to bits. I am lucky to get a 1:1 kill ratio and my army inevitably falls apart in melee.

The desert fatigue doesn't seem to impact the computer units much at all (I am playing on the HARD setting). I struggle to survive for 30 years in my last 3 attempts, let alone win.

Has anyone won a SP Late campaign as the Almos (Hard or Expert)?

How did you avoid extermination courtesy of his Holiness in Rome?

[RisingSun]

The only way I see is to totally abandon the tradiional Almohad style of play, an adopt a totally Eastern horse archer army. Getthem as mercs as well. Sine it is late, the knights will be heavy and slow, so your horse archers will tire em out, and then you hav to isolate and destroy. If they have hobilars or the like, then use your horse archers to ure the into tras There is simply no way you will win a slugging match with a late crusader army, so youll have to come up with different tactics for every battle individually.

[Tony]

Thanks RisingSun - helpful stuff. Everytime I tried to slug it out toe to toe with a crusader army I got squashed flat.

I guess if you enjoy the melee "slash and bash" style of play you are going to struggle as the Almos? Racing about with horse archers and waiting for the enemy to tire or fall into a trap just isn't much fun for me - I like to march my line up to the enemy and trade swords, spearpoints, arrows, while trying to work my Cav around the flanks. The Almos just don't have that sort of army in Late.

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] ]The only way I see is to totally abandon the tradiional Almohad style of play, an adopt a totally Eastern horse archer army.

Does the Almohods get horse archers in late as the only horse archer type they have in early is the berber camels. Another keypoint is Morroco and the province next to it wich I believe is Algeria are not desert provences wich got me at first since you can train camels there.

Another thing you can do is launch a bunch of Jihads at them but considering they creamed you early you may not have enough built up. Always train a few Jihads in different provinces so if you lose a territory with a jihad in it you can launch froma different territory.

Are you sure there troops are not exhausting, you have to watch the replay to see if the A.I. are getting exhausted. You may be surprised but urban militia in fresh condition can cream heavily armoured men in the desert. The best way to launch this tactic is to have Nubian spearmen hold the line while flanking them with urban militia. I have watched desert replays and watched an attacking army exhaust themselves before reaching my lines. A nice tactic I use when attacking in desert provences is just to sit there for a good 5 minutes and let the vultures dinner for that night roast a good while in the desert sun http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif The reason I use this tactic is that heavily armoured men get exhausted just from standing there in the sun. All you have to do is put the game speed at full while standing there and makes that 5 mins more like 50 secs.

[Kongamato]

You may have to reinforce your line with support missiles. Try Murabitin Infantry or Naptha throwers for a frontal power boost. Just remember to take them off Skirmish and make everything ideal for them to fire as these units are very finicky. They can deplete those low-morale Halberdiers or Spears and cause a chain rout. If you manage to have Ghazis or other fast infantry, the enemy line will never recover from routing.

[o_loompah_the_delayer]

Do you have enough money to hire mercenaries?
Also what is the position on the map? I would suspect the trick as always with the Almos is to wipe out the Spaniards - take Cordoba in the first turn and then when a prince matures take Castille/ Leon as opportunity allows. You dont necessary have to hold them at first, just loot and if possible ransom the king/ prince of Spain

Almos get arbalests, and also the ghulam cav though not as good as the knights can be when flanking. You also have an advantage that your monarch and so your princes will have good stats, so you would also get the valour bonus.

Though there are no good sword/ spear units (except ghazis), but if you can get Spain you should have sufficient money to get mercs and then fight the standard defensive battles in the hilly Navarre and Aragon.

[Tony]

Thanks for the help http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Mercs are difficult to get, as the Infidel Crusaders are on my doorstep before I have much chance to build up the economy (in the first 5 to 10 years I get the first declaration from the unbeliever swine in Rome, followed by the first Spanish crusade about 2 years after that, then the English and French a few years later).

I like the idea of backing the line up with more missiles - I will give it a try - thanks. Even doing this I think it is going to be a tough assignment - I regularly see Chiv Sergeants and Order Foot fight to almost the last man. These guys have a high defense and are 100 man units and take a LOT of time and units for the Almo to kill. By the time I smash them the rest of my army has usually been diced and sliced by CMAA, Halberdiers and more heathen knights than I care to remember.

I try to outmanouver the AI, but the high infidel knight component in the Crusader armies makes this tough. My foot sloggers get pinned by the knights, then the heavies turn up and my guys get stomped. And it takes a LONG time for ALMO to kill 40 or 80 or 120+ (shudder) chiv knights - they don't have a good horse killer unit. Ghazi are OK, but they die real fast when put up against Chiv Knights.

This could be interesting for TW gamers looking for a challenge - try playing the first 30 years or so as ALMO in SP Late on HARD or EXPERT and post your results here in the Org.

Then again, my difficulty could be due to my crappy tactics - I like to melee as much as possible.

[Kongamato]

The Chivalric Sergeants fighting to the last man means that they have some seriously high morale. Using Naptha, Artillery, or Handgun/Arquebus units could help with the -6 morale penalty they inflict. Also, see if you can do more on the strategy map. Lower zeal in the Catholic provinces with Ulama and assassinate commanders to take some wind from the Crusaders' sails. This could help.

Just remember, no matter how strong a unit is, there is no defense from a flying pot of explosive Naptha Naptha throwers can totally erase clumps of infantry. The only problem is that they are finicky. Take them off Skirmish and keep your eye on them at all times.

[Tony]

I love the smell of Naptha in the morning...

Someone had to say it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Spino]

Your problem is not one of history but one of scholarship and game balancing issues. Simply put I don't believe CA did adequate research on the military organizations of Moorish Spain in the high to late Medieval era. The outcome of the Reconquista was a reflection of Muslim disunity combined with the economic growth and constant military pressure exerted by Christian Spain rather than a telling example of any qualitative superiority of Catholic armies.

There is an illuminating little passage in Osprey's "Granada 1492 - Campaign Series No. 53" which covers an incident during the early stages of the siege on the last Moorish fortress in Granada. Frustrated with the slow progress of the siege Spanish knights began challenging their Moorish counterparts to duels to the death under the rules of the chivalric code. Apparently the Spanish knights fared so badly during these duels that an alarmed King Ferdinand forbade all Spanish nobles and knights from participating in these types of activities I believe in the span of a week or two 20+ knights were killed in duels, a shocking statistic when you consider that the overall score was decidedly in favor of the elite Moorish ghulams who accepted the challenges These duels between peers may not accurately reflect the training and armament of average soldier for either side but it does show that centuries of good living, while negatively affecting Muslim leadership, seems to have had little to no effect on the elite Moorish Ghulams.

A closer look at the history of Muslim Spain gives the impression that had the Moorish kingdoms been unified and still possessed a shred of ambition and reclaimed the initiative the struggle for domination of the Iberian peninsula could have gone on for much longer.

EDIT - Ok, it's been awhile since I've read that book so I opened it up and found that I made some errors in my post. It turns out it was the elite Moorish warriors who challenged the Spanish knights to duels in the early months of the siege of Granada and not the other way around. It is also apparent that I pulled the number of Spanish knights who died from thin air as the book makes no mention of how many died fighting in individual combat challenges (where in blazes did I get that from?). The book also does not mention how successful the Moors were at these duels but the number of Spanish slain was alarming enough to cause Ferdinand and Isabella to forbid further participation. My apologies.

[Tony]

It does seem a little unlikely that certain factions stop dead in terms of progressing their foot soldiers, or in the case of the Byzantines, go BACKWARDS - VG are not available in late as per the standard game. One of the first things I mod is to allow VG to be built in Late.

Giving the Almos Saracen Infantry would help, but they still lack a decent melee unit for Late - an equivalent to CMAA, or a quality polearm or pike unit. This is not very realistic - nations learn from each other and rapidly adopt the best available technology and techniques. If they don't, then they risk defeat. Did the Almos really stop developing their foot soldiers? I doubt it.

[MizuKokami]

any time i've faced off with an enemy who's armies matched or exceded mine in number, i have made it a point to slaughter the prisoners i capture in the first battle i face them in. i know this cost me ransom money, but at least they don't come back later and bite me in the behind. i suggest you don't slaughter prisoners twice with the same general, as it creates a negative moral bonus.
also, if someone crusades against you, and you manage to get them at a standstill so they don't advance anymore, don't destroy that crusader army, as catholics can only sponser one crusade per faction at a time. let the crusade army desert on it's own, unless you have the chance to illiminate the faction entirely.
and remember, you don't have to destroy the enemy to defeat him, only weaken him so much he can't stand.

[Mount Suribachi]

Thats a good tip on leaving crusades alive, though slighty cheesy.